Blown Engine Come Back

fz6bk

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I had posted back in April seeking help after losing power suddenly on the highway. That post was accidentally deleted. Observations among other things were badly burned spark plugs. The electrodes were just gone. It's amazing that it ran as long as it did. I suspected it was running lean/hot due to decat and slips ons with a sight unseen ECUnleashed flash. The flash was supposed to have made the mixture richer, so I was running my PC V with a zero map, as advised, until I could get it dyno tuned. Compression was low when I tested it, but my battery was dying at the time, and I'm not certain it cranked hard enough to trust the measurement. New spark plugs did not alleviate the problem.

I decided to just swap in a new engine I bought one for about $600 shipped on Ebay that had reportedly been compression tested. The project sat until this month. I finally swapped in the new engine, R6 forks and brakes (with Penske internals), and a S2 swingarm, among other planned mods. After about 30 (hard) miles, I had the spark plug in cylinder 4 lose the inner electrode. I'm not sure why. The others looked good. In any case, I installed a richer map (the one for my Scorpion exhaust) until I can get to the dyno. I think this is the most done I've ever been with the bike. It doesn't need anything.

I'll leak down and pop the head off the old engine eventually. I've had my eyes on a air cooled hypermotard as a replacement for a while, but I'm reminded why I love this bike now finally riding it. It's just the right amount of power in the right place. It's a shame they cut some corners as originally shipped. I'm hard pressed to find a better street bike now.

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Motogiro

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The only thing that I wonder is if the original fuel management possibly toasted the first engine with that reflashed ECU is it possible this engine will suffer the same or a close fate if it was the fault of bad fueling? If the bike was running okay and you lost an electrode, where did it go? If we don't know our AFR to begin with how do you know what to set the additional fuel controller to,,,,:don'tknow:
 

TownsendsFJR1300

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+1 ^^..

If your still burning electrodes (I remember that post and very unusual), seems like either the ECM or if the same cylinder, possibly a bad injector..

Definitly a leak down test too...


I have open Scorps, stock ECM and no controller.. Bike runs great, no loping, no issues what so ever (over 20,000 miles so far)..

IMP, I'd be checking the injectors (get them cleaned at a minimum) and change out that ecm & lose the controller..

I'd also be reading plugs way more often before running the snot out of it, before you cause more / additional damage..
 
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fz6bk

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Original case/old engine was the stock ECU for most of its life, then the stock ECU with a PC V and map, and then an ECUnleashed ECU and PC V with a zero map.
Cylinder 4 case/new engine was a stock ECU and no PC V for about 30 miles before the problem in cyl 4.
At present, I have the stock ECU and added back the PC V with a map. I've only ridden it around the block.

The flashed ECU is out of the picture with the new engine. So, "What happened in cylinder 4?" is a good question. My answer is that it was running lean with the decat and no map after the swap. Almost certainly this is true. Whether it caused this specific problem is another question. My action was to add the PC V with the preprogrammed map for the exhaust. I agree that it may not address the root cause.

Among other things, the original, stock ECU, could be bad, or there could be a problem with the fuel injection, as suggested.

I synced the throttle bodies when I swapped in the new engine. They required almost no adjustment. If there was a problem with the injectors (e.g. for a particular cylinder), would I have seen it here?

I'll certainly pull the plug for cylinder 4 again after a short trip. What's the best way otherwise to check for a lean condition in one cylinder? I'll get an aggregate AFR at the dyno presumably, but would it tell us if there was a problem with just one?

What's the preferred way to clean the injectors? I have no problem pulling the throttle bodies off again if required.

Is it possible to just get a bad plug? I should have taken a picture, but this one was nothing like the ones in the old engine. The center electrode was just missing. The old ones were burned beyond recognition.
 
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TownsendsFJR1300

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A TB sync is just adjusting the vacuum between the cylinders at idle and up to 4K..

Your plug, burning itself up is not common at all... It certainly isn't a coincidence..

If you search your area for companies that clean injectors would be your best bet..

And yes, checking the spark plugs, especially #4, will show if it's lean, etc if done way before it burns the plug or worse yet a piston..
 

fz6bk

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Gotcha. I'll check plug 4 again after a short ride. Obviously my hope is that using the suggested map will solve the problem. Would the differential temps from a probe on the headers tell us anything?

If the problem persists and is in fact just a problem with cyl 4, we've considered:
- A problem with the injector(s)
- A problem with the stock ECU?

What else would effect just one cylinder?

e.g. I should have checked valve clearances. The engine was supposed to have about 10k so I skipped it. Lazy perhaps. The tank and airbox may be coming off again anyway for the injectors as suggested, so I'll do it. I do the plugs on my race bike every 2 weekends (no front access) so I've gotten fast at disassembly for better or worse.
 
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TownsendsFJR1300

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With really the lack of mods, short of the Scorps, you shouldn't need a controller at all.. Un-less there's something else added, I'd pull the controller.. .They do on occasion cause issues..

Perhaps check the intake rubber seals for any leakage (where the TB's slip into and their bolted to the head).. A squirt of carb cleaner around the boot while running would raise the engine idle IF a leak was detected/cleaner sucked in..

Re valve clearances, if you had a valve too tight (especially exhaust), you could cook that valve. I've never heard of a spark plug electrode cooking as such...

I've read of rare instances where an injector passed (and was cleaned), but still didn't work right.. You might consider another (new or much cheaper used) injector off Flea Bay..
 

fz6bk

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The recent problem with cyl 4 occurred without the PC. I left it out after swapping originally to remove the variable as you've noted. My concern now is getting more fuel in. Otherwise I would leave it out.

I have a decat mid/riser pipe in addition to the unbaffled slip ons. My headers are crazy heavy but I don't think they have a cat (S1). Do you have the S2 headers? Are you running the decat mid/riser pipe?

Used parts are dirt cheap as you mentioned. If the problem persists it does seem reasonable to take a shot on the best of the used throttle bodies with injectors.
 
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FinalImpact

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There are fake plugs out there. They manage to print Denso and NGK on them and one has to have a real good eye to see the difference.

Both Amazoo and fleabay have been inundated but these are specific to precious metal plugs.

I'd highly recommend you get a data logger and tune your own map. These bikes are super happy running at 13.1:1 across the whole range. That said mine is at 12.9 from 3k to 5.5k and transition from there to 13.1.

As for unleashed ecu, not sure why you'd run a zero map as it would do nothing. At minimum you could weld in a bung and install a wideband o2 sensor and simply run a monitor but a logger is best.
 

fz6bk

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The fake plugs thing is of interest. I believe I bought the first set of plugs in the new engine from Autozone online. They were CR9EKs. I just replaced them all with CR9EIXs from Autozone in store. Given that the other 3 plugs were okay, my first hope is that the cyl 4 plug was just defective, and my second hope is that using the proper/enriched map will solve the problem. You guys have certainly reminded me to be vigilant and to consider the possibility that a problem remains, e.g. with the injectors. More to come here as discussed in previous posts.

I've been doing things myself increasingly, e.g. the swap. That being said, I've done a lot of work with I believe the best dyno tuner in the country (Bauce Racing). He does my and everybody's R6. It probably just makes sense to have him do it. He's more likely to notice a problem as well.

With the flashed ECU, I was told to run the zero map until I got to the dyno by the guy who did the flash (not Bauce). Fueling changes were made in the ECU itself. This is not out of the ordinary. I have, for example, a flashed ECU and a PC on my R6. The ECU is tuned for MR12, and I switch the PC between a zero map and a map the adjusts for pump. In any case, I'm not planning to put the flashed ECU back in, and there's little reason to. Throttle response has been smooth after the swap. It was garbage before the old engine died.

I just need it to dry up so I can go for a quick ride. I'll probably get the bike to the dyno in the next few weeks if it's still running apparently well.
 
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TownsendsFJR1300

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I have a decat mid/riser pipe in addition to the unbaffled slip ons. My headers are crazy heavy but I don't think they have a cat (S1). Do you have the S2 headers? Are you running the decat mid/riser pipe?

.

The removed cat mid-pipe does produce more air flow and the stock ECU is (from reading here), borderline keeping up with the air flow.

The S2 does have two cats (in the header and mid pipe) and I have both mine still in place (a little bit more back pressure).

With that said, that little bit of additional flow wouldn't cause that plug "to go away"..
 

FinalImpact

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Something to keep in mind is that these bikes run in open loop mode from a map. There is no feedback on fueling needs met or not met or detonation from poor fuel or excessive advance. The S2 does alter the fueling at near steady states as it has an O2 sensor but as stated, it only runs in closed loop mode at steady states. Ripping on the throttle and/anything near WOT and it ignores the sensor data (emission compliance) and runs from the maps in the ECU...

If you ever put that unleashed ECU back in there, get a data logger!
 

fz6bk

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It's been a wet week! Here's the plug after 10 miles of hard riding. I think it looks okay. What do you guys think? I'm planning to take it out tomorrow morning for a 30 mile or so ride. Will check again after. I am running some Chevron Techron in the tank at present as a half measure for the suggested possible fuel injector(s) problem.

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fz6bk

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"With that said, that little bit of additional flow wouldn't cause that plug "to go away".."

My expectation as well; I think we'll have see how this one fairs after this next ride unless you already see a problem

"If you ever put that unleashed ECU back in there, get a data logger!"

What product specifically? What does it track? I do wonder whether I should have a map made for the flashed ECU in addition to the stock ECU and salvage that investment. I actually do like having a rev limiter however. I'm used to the R6, and I hit the limiter on this bike often as a result, so I'm happy it's there.
 

fz6bk

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Plug(s) still look okay after another 60 miles of hard riding. 2 problems:

1. Hesitation above 12k in 2nd gear and above. Will install the PC speed sensor (skipped this), then go back to a zero map, and then pull the PC. I have low mileage throttle bodies and ignition coils on the way as well.

2. The fan does not seem to turn on even as the bike approaches 100 C sitting in traffic. If I turn the bike off and turn it back on, the fan comes right on and stays on until the temp drops. Thoughts?
 
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Motogiro

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2. The fan does not seem to turn on even as the bike approaches 100 C sitting in traffic. If I turn the bike off and turn it back on, the fan comes right on and stays on until the temp drops. Thoughts?

Cooling is probably fine. No need for the fan at that temperature. If you've got the proper coolant mix the coolant will not expand till higher temps. When you turn the engine off the coolant stops circulating and the temperature at the sensor then rises enough to turn on the fan.
 

TownsendsFJR1300

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1. Hesitation above 12k in 2nd gear and above. Will install the PC speed sensor (skipped this), then go back to a zero map, and then pull the PC. I have low mileage throttle bodies and ignition coils on the way as well.

Replacement throttle bodies or INJECTORS?

Your hesitation sounds like a fueling issue..
 

fz6bk

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thanks for the note on the fan, that makes sense

whole throttle body assembly including injectors!

will update....
 

FinalImpact

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thanks for the note on the fan, that makes sense

whole throttle body assembly including injectors!

will update....

What happened here? Weather dampen the riding environment?

One thing you might do; Verify current engine / old engine does not have a modified ignition trigger wheel. That could easily lead to the destruction found when coupled with ECU Unleashed Ignition MAPs.

Contact Ecunleashed and have them verify they didn't flash your ECU with some crazy ignition MAPs.

Not that they will share said Flash, but if you can get it we can analyze it. There is an ignition advance MAP for all 6 gears. Botching 3rd gear or any of them for that matter will cause melty....

At a minimum; get them to tell you what the stock MAP is (all gears) and what they flashed into your ECU.

I bring these points up because IF someone bought my bike as is and flashed the ECU it would BLOW UP as it is already 6.5° statically advance over stock. This would induce detonation and subsequent destruction.

Please let us know what you find.
 
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