Fuel Pump Issues + Metal in Tank

Dake

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Hi guys, long time lurker here. The original owner of my 2006 FZ6 let it sit between 2008 and 2010. I bought it in February from the second owner who didn't ride it much. I did some maintenance and was riding happily (for over 3000 miles, to a total of 11,5xx) until about a week ago when I (ignorantly :rolleyes:) ran the tank pretty low. It has since started bogging down under load. I've read a lot about the TPS sensor and I ruled that out first, since the bike will ride fine as long as I'm gentle on it. I ran part of a batch of cleaner through the fuel system. While it was in the garage I replaced the spark plugs and cleaned the air filter, under suspicion that the previous guys never had. Long story short, it's still acting up.

The previous owner said someone broke into the tank once, and he told me that he replaced the gas cap and flushed the tank... well, he must have fibbed about that last part. Last night I drained the tank and removed the fuel pump assembly to check for excess buildup, and to my surprise there were metal parts inside the tank, which I determined to be a latch and spring for a gas cap (a lot shinier than my current ones!). I suspect those could have chipped the tank lining, and the pump assembly was filthy. A healthy amount of grime came out of the tank with the last bit of gas. The arm holding the float is extremely rusted and flaky. The stealership predictably told me that the fuel pump assembly is non-serviceable and non-cleanable, and that I should buy a very expensive replacement unit from them. I've seen MotoMartin's thread about the FZ6R pump working on 05-08s, and I'll give that a shot if there's no way to clean mine (free < $120+).

tldr: Is the fuel pump assembly a cleanable unit, and if so, how? Since I already have it out, will I need some kind of sealant to reinstall it, or will it make a fuel-tight seal on its own? Do you think loose metal parts in the tank will have caused damage to anything? Above all, might fixing these things fix the bogging issue? Any help is appreciated, I wanna get back to riding asap :thumbup:

edit: Note that since this problem started, the furthest it has traveled is 1/8 of a mile, up the street and back.
 
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Motogiro

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:welcome:to the forum!

Your bogging could be a fuel delivery problem from a failing pump but with out testing it's a guessing game.

The test for the pump is basically a go/no go test.
It's fill up the tank and apply 12 volts to make the pump run with a hose attached to the outlet and into a container. Keep in mind that this should be done in a well ventilated area and that if the pump pushes fuel out into an open air container and your connecting and disconnecting the 12 source, there will be a spark!
PM me your email so I can send additional info. :D
 

Dake

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Thanks for the info! I'll try to give that a shot when I get home from work. I've ordered a used FZ6R pump just in case, but in my impatience I'm still gonna try to fix mine :rolleyes:

Couldn't I take the white housing apart and thoroughly clean the assembly with water, allowing it to dry before using it, or would that somehow damage it?

The metal concerns me. I have heard the inside of the tank is coated with anti-rust lining and I worry it may be damaged by parts sloshing around.
 
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Motogiro

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Thanks for the info! I'll try to give that a shot when I get home from work. I've ordered a used FZ6R pump just in case, but in my impatience I'm still gonna try to fix mine :rolleyes:

Couldn't I take the white housing apart and thoroughly clean the assembly with water, allowing it to dry before using it, or would that somehow damage it?

The metal concerns me. I have heard the inside of the tank is coated with anti-rust lining and I worry it may be damaged by parts sloshing around.

I believe there's a filter at the bottom of the pump internally on the fuel pickup If it looked relatively clean and your' getting fuel pressure it's probably okay. The metal bits you're talking about sound like leftovers from the cap being broken at one time. I'd imagine as long as you don't have rust you're probably okay. Remove the bits. I use Sea Foam every 6 months to keep injectors clean and lubed. I've seen it work great in bike that seamed like they were toast and they came back to life. There are other issues that can cause rough running and they may be worth looking at.
 

FinalImpact

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The heavy bits are of no issue as they'll hopelessly remain at the bottom. Depending on the material, they may break down and cause other issues but I think that's the least of your worries.

As best I've seen the tank really has no protection. If left unattended with moisture in it, they rust fairly quickly. Autos were at least zinc plated before plastic tanks came along and could take some torture, these don't appear to fight back much as year of sitting with moisture in them and they rust.

You have a fuel volume issue. Because it starts, runs and idles OK, it has the pressure it needs for the FI to operate. But as you accelerate the demand goes up and the small volume it could muster at idle is not enough at higher RPMs. As you planned to open the filter anyway - continue on and do it. Clean the debris and hopefully that will cure it. Again, the large bits are not the issue here but small sediment and rust can obstruct the filter and reduce the volume from that which is needed to run at higher loads/RPMs.

Another thing to check is the high pressure line out from the pump. We had a bike on here with the line kinked which did what you describe here. Starts, runs, runs good until the demand exceeds the available fuel. Take a look at this thread and follow the cues to make sure than this is ISN'T applicable to your problem. http://www.600riders.com/forum/how-tos/36794-fuel-tank-dont-kink-hoses-w-pics.html Do a search for "red_rock_beetle" posts and you should find his issues also. They are much like yours.

Get it cleaned out, make sure no houses are kinked and I personally would avoid the floor test thing. IMO there is nothing to be gained as the pump works but you have a flow restriction and this test will do nothing to establish flow is better plus its risky with fire hazard and all that.
 
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FB400

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I just went through a problem with my fuel pump. I broke off the fuel outlet. No other choice but to replace it. It seems the used Fz6 pumps are very hard to come by. Contact Flossabe on this forum. i think he is parting out an 07. The new pumps are uber expensive to the tune of $400+
 

FinalImpact

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. . ..
Get it cleaned out, make sure no houses are kinked and I personally would avoid the floor test thing. IMO there is nothing to be gained as the pump works but you have a flow restriction and this test will do nothing to establish flow is better plus its risky with fire hazard and all that.


Ya - what I said; a kinky house will mess w/your flow! :BLAA:
 

Dake

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Thanks for all the help guys! I was out of town for the weekend but last night I got the FZ6R fuel pump installed. As stated in other threads it's a perfect fit. With everything I've changed/cleaned the bike runs better, but it's not 100%. It still bogs down at low RPMs (anything under 6000 in any gear) or at wot, though there's a wider range of how far I can twist the throttle and it picks right up. Power seems to be lacking overall, though maybe that's just in my mind :rolleyes:. The houses-err, hoses are all unkinked :D. The only other area I can think of to check would be the injectors.

Before I installed the new fuel pump I noticed a rather large amount of loose buildup had dried inside the tank and gathered at the bottom. I took a long brush and a gas-soaked rag and removed as much of it as I could, and then rinsed several times with some gas.

Here's a shot of some of the cleaned up area, from the bottom. The shiny bit used to be caked in crud, and there's a hard line above it around the whole tank. I bet I can tell you how much gas was in it when it was stored :rant:

61Dhs.jpg


Maybe I'm overthinking this, but it idled great right after I put the new pump in, and revved fine as it was warming up the first time, but now it's back to being boggy. I rode it to work today to try and get some of the injector cleaner through the bike. If you guys think it's the injectors, short of removing them what's the best way to clean them thoroughly? Or could there be another problem area besides air/fuel starvation?
 
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FinalImpact

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Thanks for all the help guys! I was out of town for the weekend but last night I got the FZ6R fuel pump installed. As stated in other threads it's a perfect fit. With everything I've changed/cleaned the bike runs better, but it's not 100%. It still bogs down at low RPMs (anything under 6000 in any gear) or at wot, though there's a wider range of how far I can twist the throttle and it picks right up. Power seems to be lacking overall, though maybe that's just in my mind :rolleyes:. The houses-err, hoses are all unkinked :D. The only other area I can think of to check would be the injectors.

Before I installed the new fuel pump I noticed a rather large amount of loose buildup had dried inside the tank and gathered at the bottom. I took a long brush and a gas-soaked rag and removed as much of it as I could, and then rinsed several times with some gas.

Here's a shot of some of the cleaned up area, from the bottom. The shiny bit used to be caked in crud, and there's a hard line above it around the whole tank. I bet I can tell you how much gas was in it when it was stored :rant:

61Dhs.jpg


Maybe I'm overthinking this, but it idled great right after I put the new pump in, and revved fine as it was warming up the first time, but now it's back to being boggy. I rode it to work today to try and get some of the injector cleaner through the bike. If you guys think it's the injectors, short of removing them what's the best way to clean them thoroughly? Or could there be another problem area besides air/fuel starvation?

Not sure you want to do this now, but buying a bag of Pea gravel, throw it in the tank (Remove pump) and shake it about with HOT soap and detergent is a great way to remove chunks!

Sounds like now you're dependent upon fuel cleaners. I'd run the higher octane fuels from name brand manufactures. Chevron Techron in black bottle is good injector incleaner but you may have something else already.

Did you disconnect the battery the last time it was apart?
 

FinalImpact

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OK - see this rail on the lower section of this photo; its the fuel rail supplying the injectors. Below it are those the injectors (orange color). I suspect the inlets may be plugged but because the FZ6R is a lower output engine, do the PN's match and are they truly interchangeable? I have not looked.

Do your skills allow you to dig deeper and pull the air box and injectors? I'm not certain you can clean them but if big chunks were found right at the inlet you could clean that off easily.

picture.php


You'll need a really long 3mm hex bit. Like about 6 inches and on a 1/4" ratchet is best vs allen or T handle.
 

TownsendsFJR1300

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+1 on the Finals two posts.

Chevron techtron is an excellent cleaner as is Seafoam. I would try both thru a tank or two and see if it helps.

Someone posted (on this forum) checking and cleaning the injectors themselves after taking them off. They powered them up and could see the difference. Do a search... There are also companies that clean the injectors...

Yamaha Marine also makes a very good FI, carb cleaner, fuel system cleaner called "Ring Free" additive.

If your injectors are just varnished up inside, the chemicals may very well work for you and certainly wouldn't hurt. If there's rust that made it past the filter, you'll likely have to pull the injectors.


As a side question, does anyone know if the lower HP FZ6, do they use smaller FI nozzels, different ECU, smaller TB's?
 

FinalImpact

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Two things;
He said it was running great until it ran low on fuel and he was riding it up until this happened. So that points to a debris issue vs varnish issue. One can self clean and the other can not.

Let look up the PN's but any tiny change could make them different so I suspect its a wast of time. . .

Ronayers.com Microfiche Yamaha>Motorcycle>2008>FZ6>FUEL TANK

2008
5VX-13907-01-00 FUEL PUMP COMP. 1 $430.53

2006
5VX-13907-01-00 FUEL PUMP COMP. 1 $430.53

WHERE USED shows 04 to 08 Whats about 09???

Boatparts.net
2009 FZ6R
20S-13907-00-00 FUEL PUMP COMP. $374.83 $292.37


Next stop would be the FZ6R service manual for the pressure test. IIRC the volume test was of no real value??? :don'tknow:

Output pressure 250.0 kPa (36.3 psi) (2.50 kgf/cm²)

I couldn't find anything about testing the volume. . .
 

FinalImpact

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OK - see this rail on the lower section of this photo; its the fuel rail supplying the injectors. Below it are those the injectors (orange color). I suspect the inlets may be plugged but because the FZ6R is a lower output engine, do the PN's match and are they truly interchangeable? I have not looked.

Do your skills allow you to dig deeper and pull the air box and injectors? I'm not certain you can clean them but if big chunks were found right at the inlet you could clean that off easily.

picture.php


You'll need a really long 3mm hex bit. Like about 6 inches and on a 1/4" ratchet is best vs allen or T handle.

If you attempt injector removal THOSE PHILLIPS SCREWS on the rail are TIGHT! Make certain you have the correct bit or you will strip them! I've had all this off before on another members bike and they were very tight. Just in case I have backwards, you may also want to grab a 4mm long bit too.
 

TownsendsFJR1300

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Did you happen to check the filter of the new pump? I'm wondering if it too may have sat for awhile and varnished up/got clogged up and isn't passing as much fuel as is needed...

I know on my Yamaha OB engine, with TWO, 10 micron fuel filters (one on the engine, one on the transom) small pieces of crap still got past both filters and ended up in a part that houses the Fuel pump (in fuel-it has a drain which is how I found the crap).

I think your looking at pulling the injectors and either sending them off or cleaning them yourself. I don't think they cost maybe $20.00 each and they give you a before and after report. With all the crap that was in the tank (and some still in there) its very possible something made its way past to the injectors...
 

Black_Cirrus

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I think your looking at pulling the injectors and either sending them off or cleaning them yourself. I don't think they cost maybe $20.00 each and they give you a before and after report. With all the crap that was in the tank (and some still in there) its very possible something made its way past to the injectors...

I think this is what your gonna need to do, I'm going off automotive experience but injectors have a mini screen in the top. And your describing a fuel starvation issue. Theres a shop near me that does it for 16 a piece, I'll give you the link mostly cause I know he does the work and always puts in the filter I think you need. Mr Injector - Home Good luck ,the other option is find a used injector rack, and an impact screwdriver is a awesome tool when you need it.
 

TownsendsFJR1300

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I think this is what your gonna need to do, I'm going off automotive experience but injectors have a mini screen in the top. And your describing a fuel starvation issue. Theres a shop near me that does it for 16 a piece, I'll give you the link mostly cause I know he does the work and always puts in the filter I think you need. Mr Injector - Home Good luck ,the other option is find a used injector rack, and an impact screwdriver is a awesome tool when you need it.

Great link and great info there...

IMHO, I'd rather clean what I have rather than installing someone eles's potentially dirty injectors...
 

Dake

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Thanks for the info on how to remove that assembly. This site is where I learned how to do everything else I've done on the bike (or to bikes in general), outside of changing the oil :Lurking:

The reason I went ahead with the FZ6R pump is this thread which suggests that they're interchangeable, or at least nobody spoke up to say they aren't. I messaged the op but he seems to be inactive. I'm interested in the long term effects answer as well, as I have about 25 days left in which I can return this pump as long as it's still fine. FWIW I put it side by side to the old one and I didn't see a single difference.

That psi rating falls right into where the '05-'08 manual says it should be. I did open the new one up and it was clean. Some of the loose stuff at the back of the tank could have stayed when I rinsed it, and could have obstructed the filter again.

I have Gumout in the tank now (from before I did any work) and I bought some Techron for future use. I'll remove the injectors if need be but I'll try the easier way first, because I'm lazy :america: If it shows no signs of improvement at the end of the tank I'll probably take the injectors off, and I'll update you guys either way.
 
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