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Group I II III, vs IV & V oils - Yep!

FinalImpact

FinalImpact

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In a quest to buy oil in larger quantities I was comparing Royal Purple, Amsoil, Redline to purchase in 5 gallon quantities. One thing lead to another and here we are.

Buy what ever you want. I'm not pushing. I was just curious what I'm paying for and thought I'd share. Oils are refined in different ways. This gave some insight about cost vs quantity and added some quality.

Lay-mans terms of the five base stock groups oils are refined from; I, II, III, IV, & V
Five groups of base oil and Why Choose Synthetic Lubricants - klotzwarehouse, Synthetic lubricants warehouse, Racing oil, Fuels & Lube

A very short read on Groups
Understanding the Differences in Base Oil Groups

Group III - Rotella T6, Mobil 1 (US)
Group IV - Royal Purple, Mobil 1 HM,
Group V - AMSOIL, Red Line, Delvac-1, Motul 5100

What the "W" means and BE SURE TO READ "the legal loop hole". i.e. What about synthetic motor oils? Do they need Viscosity Additives?

This whole thing is a good read but its long.
Motor Oil Viscosity Grades Explained in Layman's Terms


A Chart from PQIA: Compare oils
CONSOLIDATED DATA ON 5W-20s EXAM

Some banned Products that
The Petroleum Quality Institute of America

(( PASTE FROM AMAZON REVIEW ))
The base stocks in motor oil are Group I, II, III, IV & V base stocks. Group I-III (1-3) are all conventional mineral oils that have come from the ground as Dino oil. Only Group IV and V use synthetic base stocks (P.A.O. for group IV) and (Esters for group V). 95% of oils labeled "fully synthetic" actually begin with group III base stocks which are then highly processed in to the final product.

**************************
Findings...
5 gal container (20qts Royal Purple Full Synthetic PN 05520 (5W – 20)
$145 or $7.25 qt
http://royalpurpleindustrial.com/assets/PS_API_MotorOIl1.pdf w/PN for smaller quantities and specs…

PN RL52-12, Red Line 5W - 20 Motor oil (15204) 12 quarts
$143 or $12 qt

PN RLMC14-12, RED LINE MOTORCYCLE OIL 10W40 (42402) 12 quarts
$129 or $10.75 qt

**************************
 
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Someone had to do it. Besides, there are NO other active threads! BlahBlah

Its like wondering around the grave yard of late..... :popcorn:
 
So what was your conclusion? Is it worth spending 2-3X more for Group IV/V oils? There are bikes that have run on pure dyno oil and got well over 100K miles with a healthy engine.

So the question is: Can you really justify using high end synthetic which could cost you $500-$1500 more over 100,000 miles of oil changes at which point if you sell your bike for $1,000 to get a newer bike would it really matter if your bike had always been run on $12/qt full synthetic or not?

I think no. Thus I'm happy with T6. ;)
 
I just want to correct one thing. Motul 5100 is %80 synt, %20 mineral. It's SEMI SYNTH oil.
But 7100 is full synth, and 5000 is 50-50 semi synth BTW.

oil grades are interesting. In Turkey, everyone is trust castrol expect me :)
I discovered castrol's hydro-cracking method for synth logo on bottles and promoted to motul.
Also I'm using mobil in my car's engine. No castrol, no lost money for branded bottle.
Thank you for infos.

Dear Fizzer, you're right about money savings with semi synth (in your country) but some people wants ultimate shifting or no oil vaporization when temps hits 84-89 F degrees (29-32 C).

Also, some engine's oil consuption is considerably high with thinner dino oil. Synth is curing oil consumption.

Only one thing is in my mind is dino oil is really cheap but only $17 5100's and 7100's 4 liter bottles ($42 for 5100, $59 for 7100 in my country).
And 7100's interval is 3k miles (5k kms) and 5100's are 1700 miles (3000 kms) in my country's weather/road conditions. 7100 wins the oil cost per distance and performance per buck IMO.
 
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My cage hammers dino oil in 3700 miles. Mind you I drive 20k a year so I've been playing with the cost vs return.

My gauge is how well the engine performs, oil pressure, VVT performance, and basic driveability. Most of that stuff I log with software so I have some facts.

A qt of basic dino oil is upwards of $5 qt. As posted above I can get RP 5W-20 for $7.50 /qt in bulk of 5gal container and it can log ~7,000 miles between OCI and maintain its integrity.

All that aside, I found the base stock grouping interesting so i posted it.

On the topic of the Bike...
Including myself there are 4 members who found that Mobil 1 4t craps out in less than 1500 miles in the bike. The shear elements presented by the valve-train and gear box seem to hammer this oil. That is, I feel extra vibes and crunchiness that are IMMEDIATELY gone when the oil is dumped and replaced.
- I found the US blend of this product is not the same as the eruo blend. Use what ever you want, but if find the vibes are excessive on your bike, I suggest you try a different lube! I went to Amsoil and change it annually. It has no vibes induced by the lubricants (or lack of)...

That's all I have to offer...
 
I'm running Redline 10w-40 motorcycle oil right now and it feels substantially better than the dino oil my bike came with when I bought it used from a dealer. The valve-train is much quieter overall, making idle sound smoother. Shifts are better cold, but about the same as dino when hot. I've logged about 1600 miles of urban commuting with a few miles of freeway daily. It was clear for the first 1K miles with no change in look or smell. It's now a little darker, about the color of a light beer and has the lost the chemical scent for which I long Blah

I've only logged about 3000 miles since I bought the FZ6, but previously I ran Motul Semi in a '06 GSXR for 55K miles w/o any mechanical issues (that includes the dealership allowing me to ride away with no oil at the 600 mile change, logged about 2 miles and rode back due to a light, so I know Motul is a great oil too). I also run Redline 5w-30 in my car which is turbo'd @ 18psi and every other weekend, she starts and idles like new (42K miles of kicking @$$ and taking names!!). I really beat the snot out of it once my oil is up to temp.

Supposedly ester based oils (generally Group V) have a natural adherence towards metal surfaces. I imagine this lessens the effects of dry-starts, one of the harsher moments in an engine's life. Advocating Redline some more, but it's got a good amount of Molybdenum, Zinc & Phosphorus. The viscosity index is among the highest in it's class (163) and the evaporation is quite low. I don't believe this is limited to Redline alone, but Motul being my go to was more expensive and not a local brand.

HTH
Red Line Synthetic Oil - Motorcycles, ATVs, and Powersports - 10W40 Motorcycle Oil
 
GhengisT said:
I've only logged about 3000 miles since I bought the FZ6, but previously I ran Motul Semi in a '06 GSXR for 55K miles w/o any mechanical issues (that includes the dealership allowing me to ride away with no oil at the 600 mile change, logged about 2 miles and rode back due to a light, so I know Motul is a great oil too).
Click to expand...

Randy, ^^^,

Seems like one mile would be quite do-able if Ghengis went TWO miles W/O ANY oil!!
 
TownsendsFJR1300 said:
Randy, ^^^,

Seems like one mile would be quite do-able if Ghengis went TWO miles W/O ANY oil!!
Click to expand...

But you said CANBUS oil / canola oil right? That might just dilute whatever you run and take its life! :eek:

Pops ran 289 V8 about 6 miles home in a snow storm after chunk of ice blew a hole in the oil filter. So it was freeze on the spot in subzero temps or drive. He drove. Car had 70,XXX miles. It continued life to 250,xxx and the bottom end never let loose or got new bearings. That was valvoline dino fluid from the 70's and good ol STP!
picture.php




CHECK this out...
Pressure loading test of Synthetic oils. Don't just look at the pictures. Read the details about how much pressure was applied before the oil film was overcome by friction and damaged the bearing. From this it all looks like a compromise....
http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil Tests.pdf
 
FinalImpact said:
But you said CANBUS oil / canola oil right? That might just dilute whatever you run and take its life! :eek:
Click to expand...

Ahhh no, you did, WESSON...

Have you been driving over to Colorado for some now, legal, "recreational" medicine?? :spank:

And something I saw a couple of years ago, somewhat related. They had an old Honda 50 step thru scooter (3 speed, manual with auto clutch). They ran that thing W/O oil after dropping it from a multi story building, just to show how well they were built. That thing just kept a running dry. Un-real..
 
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TownsendsFJR1300 said:
Ahhh no, you did, WESSON...

Have you beed driving over to Colorado for some now, legal, "recreational" medicine?? :spank:

And something I saw a couple of years ago, somewhat related. They had an old Honda 50 step thru scooter (3 speed, manual with auto clutch). They ran that thing W/O oil after dropping it from a multi story building, just to show how well they were built. That thing just kept a running dry. Un-real..
Click to expand...

^^ No need to as the Liberals made it so here too! Takes effect 2015-07.... In the interim, they won't site you for possession if under an oz! :D:D Oregon Brownies anyone?

Just keep both tires on the ground and don't make a scene and you're fine!
 
FinalImpact said:
^^ No need to as the Liberals made it so here too! Takes effect 2015-07.... In the interim, they won't site you for possession if under an oz! :D:D Oregon Brownies anyone?

Just keep both tires on the ground and don't make a scene and you're fine!
Click to expand...

"Cite", NOT site; Cite | Define Cite at Dictionary.com

Seems you may have started with the "good brownies" already!!!Blah


Seriously thou, unfortunatly, getting that law passed is just one more thing, (like texting), you'll now have to watch for while on the road..:(
 
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TownsendsFJR1300 said:
Randy, ^^^,

Seems like one mile would be quite do-able if Ghengis went TWO miles W/O ANY oil!!
Click to expand...

I couldn't believe it either. Since I had payed for the extended warranty and maintenance plan (4 years - unlimited miles), I attempted to destroy that motor within my time constraints, and responsibly through lots of upper RPM time..

Couldn't do it before the warranty expired..
 
Thanks, a great collection of resources!

I used to run Rotella T (NOT T6) in my Kawi Ninja's and never had an issue, but am switching to T6 for my FZ6 (ran regular T last year in it because that's what I had and didn't really research into it much).

The big advantage I see is longer intervals between changes with full synthetic, no? I don't know if that makes up for the price difference, but I'd rather have pricey stuff in there when I'm making longer trips into the US and whatnot... and really, for me, 100k km would take at least 5 years, probably closer to 8, so $500-$1000 over that period is max $100 a year... not worth worrying over, imo.
 
FinalImpact said:
In a quest to buy oil in larger quantities I was comparing Royal Purple, Amsoil, Redline to purchase in 5 gallon quantities. One thing lead to another and here we are.

Buy what ever you want. I'm not pushing. I was just curious what I'm paying for and thought I'd share. Oils are refined in different ways. This gave some insight about cost vs quantity and added some quality.

Lay-mans terms of the five base stock groups oils are refined from; I, II, III, IV, & V
Five groups of base oil and Why Choose Synthetic Lubricants - klotzwarehouse, Synthetic lubricants warehouse, Racing oil, Fuels & Lube

A very short read on Groups
Understanding the Differences in Base Oil Groups

Group III - Rotella T6, Mobil 1 (US)
Group IV - Royal Purple, Mobil 1 HM,
Group V - AMSOIL, Red Line, Delvac-1, Motul 5100

What the "W" means and BE SURE TO READ "the legal loop hole". i.e. What about synthetic motor oils? Do they need Viscosity Additives?

This whole thing is a good read but its long.
Motor Oil Viscosity Grades Explained in Layman's Terms


A Chart from PQIA: Compare oils
CONSOLIDATED DATA ON 5W-20s EXAM

Some banned Products that
The Petroleum Quality Institute of America

(( PASTE FROM AMAZON REVIEW ))
The base stocks in motor oil are Group I, II, III, IV & V base stocks. Group I-III (1-3) are all conventional mineral oils that have come from the ground as Dino oil. Only Group IV and V use synthetic base stocks (P.A.O. for group IV) and (Esters for group V). 95% of oils labeled "fully synthetic" actually begin with group III base stocks which are then highly processed in to the final product.

**************************
Findings...
5 gal container (20qts Royal Purple Full Synthetic PN 05520 (5W – 20)
$145 or $7.25 qt
http://royalpurpleindustrial.com/assets/PS_API_MotorOIl1.pdf w/PN for smaller quantities and specs…

PN RL52-12, Red Line 5W - 20 Motor oil (15204) 12 quarts
$143 or $12 qt

PN RLMC14-12, RED LINE MOTORCYCLE OIL 10W40 (42402) 12 quarts
$129 or $10.75 qt

**************************
Click to expand...

I wanted to post my "thank you" to this, but where I used to see that link (in the lower right corner of the original message) I now only see MQ, QR, and "Blog this post" buttons...?
 
Does anyone have any links to a list (or lists) of true full synthetic (Group IV) vs highly refined Group III "Synthetic" oils? Or does anyone know how to tell this from the information on the bottle? I've been searching and I've found some partial lists and recommended oils, but even those aren't certain of what is true synthetic... sounds almost like price would be the best indicator with such little info out there from the suppliers!!

You'd think the true synthetics would be loud and proud about it to justify the higher price and better quality...:confused:
 
I work at an auto parts store and after reading this yesterday I went and had a look at the bottles. None of the car related oils seem to say anything but there is a couple of Silkolene ones from Fuchs in our motorcycle section (we only stock Fuchs and Castrol for motorcycle stuff) which mention specifically "Synthetic Ester". So my assumption here is that this means they're a Group V oil. There was no mentions of Esters or anything on the other oils that I looked at though.

EDIT: After having a look on the website of a couple I didn't look at. We have a brand over here called Penrite which has multiple different strains of oil. They have one called HPR which will be the highly refined group III stuff however they do make specific mention on their "10 tenths" oil range that it's made of Group IV PAO and Group V Ester. Also the 10 Tenths Premium (not racing) has a Jaso MA rating so is able to be used on motorcycle applications. Figured this would be helpful information for others on here in Australia and NZ where Penrite is sold.

EDIT #2:
After even further research into Penrite they actually market their stuff how others should market it.
Penrite Oil - A Better Class Of Oil
If you look at the list it makes mention specifically of which ones are made of the proper synthetic bases.
 
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