How Do Traffic Signals Work in EU?

[ShoopCE]

I'm asking because in the US we have many signals that are controlled using induction loop sensors that detect the presence of vehicles based on changes in the electrical signal caused by the presence of a mass of metal. Sadly in many cases the sensors are set to ignore smaller signals such as would be caused by bicycles or motorcycles. Consequently, some states have enacted laws that allow riders to pass through the red light.

So, are these sensors used in the EU? And if so, are they sensitive to motorcycles?

Several of us on another forum suspect that because bikes are more prevalent, that your traffic folks might tend to use other sensors or to just set them to be less discriminating.

How "Dead Red" Laws Let Motorcycles Run Red Lights Legally | BikeBandit.com

 

[iviyth0s]

I'm asking because in the US we have many signals that are controlled using induction loop sensors that detect the presence of vehicles based on changes in the electrical signal caused by the presence of a mass of metal. Sadly in many cases the sensors are set to ignore smaller signals such as would be caused by bicycles or motorcycles. Consequently, some states have enacted laws that allow riders to pass through the red light.

So, are these sensors used in the EU? And if so, are they sensitive to motorcycles?

How "Dead Red" Laws Let Motorcycles Run Red Lights Legally | BikeBandit.com

That's so awesome! I wish NJ accepted that law here, I still go anyway and I think only an a-hole cop would actually enforce a violation if I explained the situation. (Especially if there is no other option to get around it)

Luckily most lights around me are infrared or better and pick my bike up fast (swear the light near my job changes faster for my bike every time)

 

[ShoopCE]

I doubt if this will work in all areas, you know how most bureaucracies can be, but you might be able to get the highway dept. to recalibrate the sensor.

When I returned to riding this past year I learned that a light near my home would not detect the motorcycle. It is a low volume road so I just waited one minute then rode through. I only allowed one minute because when that light is working it is very quick to change. But it bugged me to be doing that so I googled the highway department and called one of the offices. They directed me to a different office for the engineer that handles the traffic signals. The guy was really nice and assured me they would recalibrate the inductance loop sensor. A week later it was fixed and working fine.

Chris

 

[Motogiro]

From what I understand the induction loops are more sensitive to ferrous(iron content) materials. Those sensors probably work great on the Harleys with those heavy steel frames. I'm pretty sure California allows you to pass when safe once the detector has failed to detect your bike.

I've had a magnets that was supposed to work on these but it didn't make a difference. I've also done some experimenting with electromagnetic pulse to see if the loop detects it but I think you'd need a really heavy device with lots of current.

With the technology available today it would be cheaper and easier in every way to get rid of all the copper wire and antique electronics and reduce the taxes for upkeep of these old fashioned systems that are better for Ben Franklin and his old carriage! Lol!

 

[ChanceCoats123]

As questionable as most of Illinois' corrupt laws are, it's actually nice to see we have a clause for running red lights after two minutes. I'm actually thinking I may put a 2 minute countdown timer on my bars so I can start it as soon as I'm stopped and save myself some time. I live in a populated area, but sometimes at night or during low traffic hours I'll sit for a good while before someone comes along and sets it off.

 

[FinalImpact]

Contrary to belief, many of the "cameras" are actually motion detectors. So, its software based once the basic aim is established and one camera can observe several lanes. In these parts, most new construction/new intersections get these vs loops.
That said, they can do both and there may in fact be a video stream being recorded. When you don't see an inductance loop, look up and observe to see if theres a "camera like" device pointed at you.

 

[iviyth0s]

I doubt if this will work in all areas, you know how most bureaucracies can be, but you might be able to get the highway dept. to recalibrate the sensor.

When I returned to riding this past year I learned that a light near my home would not detect the motorcycle. It is a low volume road so I just waited one minute then rode through. I only allowed one minute because when that light is working it is very quick to change. But it bugged me to be doing that so I googled the highway department and called one of the offices. They directed me to a different office for the engineer that handles the traffic signals. The guy was really nice and assured me they would recalibrate the inductance loop sensor. A week later it was fixed and working fine.

Chris

Great Idea...though we've complained about a poorly torn up road and they've done nothing so I doubt they'd hassle themselves to lower the limit on the light sensor, even though it's likely alot less work

Contrary to belief, many of the "cameras" are actually motion detectors. So, its software based once the basic aim is established and one camera can observe several lanes. In these parts, most new construction/new intersections get these vs loops.
That said, they can do both and there may in fact be a video stream being recorded. When you don't see an inductance loop, look up and observe to see if theres a "camera like" device pointed at you.

Oh, I thought those were infrared scanners that detected a sizable heat source to signal the light to cycle to that direction or atleast enqueue it.

 

[FinalImpact]

Check this out.... Cop talk: Triggering traffic light when riding motorcycle - Redding


A little Excerpt from the link:

To remedy this problem, traffic cameras are installed to monitor vehicles as they approach the intersections and the movement of a vehicle will send a message to the light that there is traffic waiting. Now the problem is the motorcycle is smaller than a passenger vehicle being detected by the camera. This problem many times occurs when a motorcycle enters a designated left turn pocket. The cameras have a limited view of approaching traffic and if the motorcycle operator is in the far left portion of the turn pocket, the camera may not pick up the vehicle's image.

To clear up another of the big brother is watching theories: these specific cameras are for detecting vehicles for the moment, they are not recording or sending images to CIA operatives under the streets of Gotham. They are solely viewing images and sending signals to the traffic lamps as to what phase to go to next. The red lamp cameras used for enforcement purposes are totally different.

 

[greg]

Yes we have them (UK), no it's not legal to drive through them if they don't work.

They usually work, if not you can report them to the council who will increase sensitivity.

I've only had a few problems with them not triggering, usually in my car (one I have to specifically drive over the edge of it to get it to trigger, though this may be using a motion detector).

You can see were the induction loops are laid out on the road, and I try to ride through them. I think they work with all metals, not just ferrous.

Anecdote: On one of my driving tests, I approached a signal controlled traffic light on a quiet road, it changed to green then quickly changed to red as I approached, so I stopped. I then waited for several long minutes for it to change, the driving instructor tried waving his clipboard at it, opening the car door, and then eventually got me to drive backwards and forwards to try and set it off again. Needless to say I failed the test (for hesitating apparently).

 

[Motogiro]

I'll be.... I've been doing a little searching for California law and haven't found a rule or law stating that you can pass through a red light if the detector does not see you. I've heard mention of it and that the words cited are similar to that of other states that do allow it under the law.
Quoting a LEO from a forum or other source that is not from the law may not be accurate at all and as in many cases like lane splitting laws in California it is at the discretion of the officer whether your doing something in legal or illegal way.

I don't have all day to research this so does anyone have the actual code for California that states it is legal to to go through an intersection when there is a failure of the loop detection?

This might be helpful for people to know this is or is not legally allowed.
Example: I've been sitting through lights with no detection and I want to make the turn but there is a LEO present. I'm in a left hand turn lane and must turn left. It is not legal to switch lanes so I can not switch lanes to go straight.

I've found this: CHAPTER 4. RIGHT-OF-WAY - Sections 21800-21807 :: California Vehicle Code :: 2005 California Code :: California Law :: California Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

If you read this it states the condition of failure would be that the light is inoperative or is inoperative because of battery failure but how would anyone know that or the difference of a loop failure to detect versus a power failure and the presence of battery operation or failure?

2005 California Vehicle Code Sections 21800-21807 CHAPTER 4. RIGHT-OF-WAY

(d) (1) The driver of any vehicle approaching an intersection
which has official traffic control signals that are inoperative shall
stop at the intersection, and may proceed with caution when it is
safe to do so. This subparagraph shall apply to traffic control
signals that become inoperative because of battery failure.

I surrender! More confusion! Lol!
California Driver Handbook

A left turn against a red light can only be made from a one-way street onto a one-way street. Signal and stop for a red traffic light at the marked limit line. If there is no limit line, stop before entering the crosswalk. If there is no crosswalk, stop before entering the intersection. You may turn left into a left-moving, one-way street if there is no sign to prohibit the turn. Yield to pedestrians, bicyclists, or other vehicles moving on their green light.

 

[ShoopCE]

I surrender! More confusion! Lol!
California Driver Handbook

Moto - I didn't really mean to cause you this pain! Blah

I'm laughing, a bit - and entirely respectfully, because your frustration with trying to find a clear message in regulations is pretty much what I deal with all the time in my job. I do environmental regulatory work for a chemical/polymers company.

I think the bottom line is that most states have never addressed how to deal with these lights when the sensors don't work correctly, even though they have been around for decades. If the policeman who sees you go through a light that won't change is the least bit reasonable, there's not a problem. But, happily some states - the ones in the first article, have put some effort into making the right thing to do be better defined. :thumbup:

Chris

 

[Motogiro]

Moto - I didn't really mean to cause you this pain! Blah

I'm laughing, a bit - and entirely respectfully, because your frustration with trying to find a clear message in regulations is pretty much what I deal with all the time in my job. I do environmental regulatory work for a chemical/polymers company.

I think the bottom line is that most states have never addressed how to deal with these lights when the sensors don't work correctly, even though they have been around for decades. If the policeman who sees you go through a light that won't change is the least bit reasonable, there's not a problem. But, happily some states - the ones in the first article, have put some effort into making the right thing to do be better defined. [emoji106]

Chris

No... I was doing it more for me cuz I thought California had a law. It should be simple to find if there was one.....I'm thinking, "Oh yeah, California's a progressive state with lane splitting, riding with a football helmet like Jack Nickelson in Easy Rider, puffin on a joint while running red lights"......Okay...well...the lane splitting part.....

 

[jentus]

when I lived in Israel they had a lot of those lights in Tel-Aviv. One time I got pulled over for passing on red and when I explained the situation, the officer told me I could have continued straight instead of turning on red. I told him the next left turn was 2-3 miles ahead and that it makes zero sense but he didn't care. Though he didn't give me a ticket that time.

 

[Bassieh]

Here in the Netherlands we have 2 systems. One that has the magnetic sensors. And one where the lights just change over time. And of course it's never allowed to cross a red light. You can get a heavy fine for it (like €250).

 

[BWillie]

We have both systems in the uk, depending on when it was installed. The ones on a timer are older and really inefficient and are gradually being replaced by the magnetic ones. Never had a problem in 7 years driving.

I remember setting a magnetic one off while sat in a shopping trolley on a night out.

 

[nivag]

Most of the ones in London work well. Especially at night. I can only think of one which has the problem of not working if you don't hit it in the right spot, but once you've moved it triggers quickly.