Running on 2 Cylinders, What to Do?

[grbl]

My 2004 FZ6 switched to 2 cylinders last Friday at the end of my commute home. I saw both fault codes 33 and 34. I replaced the plugs and did the "vibration fix" repair to the spark plug boots, and it was great all week until cutting back to 2 again halfway through my way to work yesterday. Like before, I saw fault 34 when I turned it off, then 33 after starting it and turning it off again.

My local shop said that it's a common problem for the ignition coils to go bad on these bikes, but that it's 8 or 900 bucks to have them replaced. They did say that if it's not too difficult to ride, it won't damage anything to ride it in this condition if I can ride it to the shop instead of having it towed (though I do have towing coverage through my insurance).

I'm up for getting my hands dirty. Is there a clear way to troubleshoot the problem myself from here? Is it likely to fix the problem if I just buy a used set of coils off a crashed bike? What do the fine folks of the forum recommend I do?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Ohendo]

I've never changed them myself, but seems pretty straightforward. I'm sure some knowledgable members will chime in.
But new ignition coils are are $90-100 new at partzilla. Sounds like you only need one.

 

[FinalImpact]

A key question temperature and component....
Warm it long enough to induce the misfire condition and then pull the boots from the head. Insert your used plugs and rest them on the headers so the metal body touches the header. Hit the starter and verify therer is no spark at two plugs.
Lift the Tank (may need to pull battery) and swap the power and ecu ground wires from one coil set to the other.
Hit the starter button. Did the loss of spark move to the other coil?
Is there spark from any plugs?

You need to know if its the coils or the ECU. The ecu completes the electrical path that uses energy from the battery, through the coils and to the engine ground. If the switches in the ECU fail, you need a new ECU!

The goal here is to figure out which one is failing... Do keep in mind this NOT 100% as the spark energy required to jump a gap in open air is much lower than the heat, pressure, and fuel mixture in the combustion chamber. Meaning; they may spark all the time even w a bad coil or defective ECU... Double the gap on your used plugs to simulate increased spark energy requirement!

 

[grbl]

Sounds like great troubleshooting advice. Unfortunately, once I got the bike "fixed" last weekend I tossed the old plugs. I ordered a full set of used coils and will swap and hope. This will also give me a chance to clean and re-seat all the other connectors in the circuit. Thanks!

 

[grbl]

The Plot Thickens

I picked up the bike from work to bring it home today. I puttered to the gas station and filled up, and like magic it's back to 4 cylinders. Does this point to anything different? Why would filling up fix a problem the bike claims is electrical? Or it could be a coincidence.

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: The Plot Thickens

Now that depends... If for example when it was misfiring you sprayed the header pipes with water, and lets say 1 & 3 did not evaporate water while 2 & 4 flashed the water into steam, you would know 1 & 3 were not firing.

If however the misfire was random and each cylinder flashed the water off at the same rate, well coupled with the fuel up, one could speculate water in the fuel causing random misfire... Possible.
Carry a squirt bottle or water jug you van splash h2o on the header and find out if the condition is fixed to a set of plugs or random...

 

[grbl]

Re: The Plot Thickens

So far, it looks like the occasional 34 is a red herring. Every time I've checked, it's been 1/4 cold, 2/3 hot. I think that's good news, because it sounds like I really might just have a bad coil. I've continued to ride on 2 cylinders while I await parts, since it still idles OK and has enough power for the highway. It's like a 250 that's geared all wrong and has too much engine braking. I still haven't observed any patterns in when it runs on 2 and when it runs on 4, it really seems random. It's a bit of a shock if you have the throttle wide open at 9k and it goes from 2 to 4 without warning though

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: The Plot Thickens

Do you have access to an inductive timing light (clips around plug wire) ?

Carrying that and hooking up to the battery (when acting up) will also confirm if you have spark.

You can plug and ground a SPARE plug to a particular wire(again when acting up) but its going to be warm in there just pulling the cap...


You may want to check the main harness plug for the ECU, that there's no corrosion.

Also(probably not if you have half the engine sparking) is to check / play with the Red Kill switch. Its a known issue, especially if used often, to fail. That would kill spark to all the plugs. Occasionally, with the bike running (if its an issue), slightly rocking the switch (not turning it off) will cause misfiring/dying...

 

[grbl]

Re: The Plot Thickens

All the connections will definitely get a thorough check when I swap coils. I don't know anybody with an inductive timing light or similar.

I know I can pull all the caps and there's supposed to be a diagnostic mode that will fire sparks without cranking, or at least I was able to find diagnostic mode info for the R6. The ignition is too different for the codes to be the same though, can somebody point me to info for the FZ6 diagnostic mode?

I will definitely fiddle with the kill switch, couldn't hurt to investigate.

 

[Motogiro]

Re: The Plot Thickens

So far, it looks like the occasional 34 is a red herring. Every time I've checked, it's been 1/4 cold, 2/3 hot. I think that's good news, because it sounds like I really might just have a bad coil. I've continued to ride on 2 cylinders while I await parts, since it still idles OK and has enough power for the highway. It's like a 250 that's geared all wrong and has too much engine braking. I still haven't observed any patterns in when it runs on 2 and when it runs on 4, it really seems random. It's a bit of a shock if you have the throttle wide open at 9k and it goes from 2 to 4 without warning though

Is it a good idea to run with 2 cylinders missing? Raw fuel into the CATs etc,,,,

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: The Plot Thickens

Is it a good idea to run with 2 cylinders missing? Raw fuel into the CATs etc,,,,

Thats a short list of all the bad things happening to it!
I'll bite my tongue....opcorn:

Post below is from: Troubleshooting & maintenance guide,....

**************************
DIAGNOSTIC MODE, ERROR CODES, SENSOR OPERATION
**************************

The ECM has the ability to verify some of the sensors and switches on the vehicle. When placed into diagnostic mode it can also display inactive error codes and some history as well as test both the ignition coils and the fuel injectors. For most of these tests, the FSM instruction the user to disconnect the Fuel Pump power (Green connector under the fuel tank).

Setting the diagnostic mode S2 Models:
1. Turn the main switch to “OFF” and set the engine stop switch to “STOP”.
2. Disconnect the wire harness coupler from the fuel pump (GREEN connector).
3. Simultaneously press and hold the “SELECT” and “RESET” buttons, turn the main switch to “ON”, and continue to press the buttons for 8 seconds or more.

• All displays on the meter disappear except the clock and tripmeter displays.
• “dIAG” appears on the LCD meter.​

4. Press the “SELECT” button to select the C0 adjustment mode “C0” or the diagnostic mode “dIAG”. US bikes will only display "dIAG", unless a jumper wire is grounding a pin in the harness to enable C0/C1 fuel trim adjustments.
5. After selecting “dIAG”, simultaneously press the “SELECT” and “RESET” buttons for 2 seconds or more to execute the selection.
6. Set the engine stop switch to “OFF”.
7. Select the diagnostic code number that applies to the item that was verified with the fault code number by pressing the “SELECT” and “RESET” buttons.

NOTE:
The diagnostic code number appears on the clock LCD (01–70).

• To decrease the selected diagnostic code number, press the “RESET” button. Press the “RESET” button for 1 second or longer to automatically decrease the diagnostic code numbers.
• To increase the selected diagnostic code number, press the “SELECT” button. Press the “SELECT” button for 1 second or longer to automatically increase the diagnostic code numbers.​

8. Verify the operation of the sensor or actuator.

• Sensor operation
The data representing the operating conditions of the sensor appears on the trip LCD.
• Actuator operation
Set the engine stop switch to “RUN” to operate the actuator.​

NOTE:
If the engine stop switch is set to “RUN”, set it to “OFF”, and then set it to “RUN” again.
9. Turn the main switch to “OFF” to cancel the diagnostic mode.

**************************
SYSTEMS that can be Verified:
**************************
To activate, turn Engine Run switch from OFF to ON while mode is selected.
01: Throttle position sensor (throttle angle)
30: Ignition coil #1, #4
31: Ignition coil #2, #3
36: Injector #1, #4
37: Injector #2, #3
48: AI system solenoid
51: Radiator fan motor relay is activated every 5 seconds.
52: Headlight relay is activated every 5 seconds (2 seconds ON, 3 seconds OFF) - 2003+ model only.

Sensor operation table:
01 : Throttle angle Fully closed position 15–17, Throttle fully opened position 97-100
02 • Atmospheric pressure given in mmHg (normal is 760 - average weather)
03 : Differential pressure between air and intake pipe
05 : Air intake temperature (in Celsius)
06 : Cooling liquid temperature (in Celsius)
07 : Absolute speed (000 = wheel stopped). Check with rear wheel (0-999).
08 : Lean angle safety switch control - must be from 0.4-1.4 (upright) to 3.8-4.2 (horizontal).
09 : Battery voltage - track actual battery voltage.
20 : Side stand switch - displays ON or OFF. Retracted = ON, Extended = OFF
21 : Neutral gear switch - displays ON or OFF. Neutral = ON, In Gear = OFF

S2 In Diagnostic Mode:


**************************
Diagnostic Code Table
**************************
NOTE: Where the following "•" is present, this data may not apply to all vehicles. Appears to be the R6 as it has 4 coils and coil ID. FI

Yamaha Fault Codes:

11 • No normal signals are received from the cylinder identification sensor when the engine is started or while the vehicle is being driven.
12 - No normal signals are received from the crankshaft position sensor.
13 - Intake air pressure sensor: open or short circuit detected.
14 - Intake air pressure sensor: hose system malfunction (clogged or detached hose.)
15 - Throttle position sensor: open or short circuit detected. Throttle position sensor (for throttle valves) coupler connection is loose.
19 - Open circuit is detected in the input lead from the sidestand switch to the ECU.
20 • When the main switch is turned to "ON", the atmospheric pressure sensor voltage and intake air pressure sensor voltage differ greatly.
21 - Coolant temperature sensor: open or short circuit detected.
22 - Air temperature sensor: open or short circuit detected.
23 • Atmospheric pressure sensor: open or short circuit detected.
24 - No normal signal is received from the o2 sensor.
30 - Latch up detected. No normal signal is received from the lean angle sensor.
33 - Malfunction detected in the primary wire of the ignition coil (#1 and #4). FZ6
34 - Malfunction detected in the primary wire of the ignition coil (#2 and #3). FZ6
35 • Open circuit detected in the primary lead of the cylinder #3 ignition coil. R6
36 • Open circuit detected in the primary lead of the cylinder #4 ignition coil. R6
39 • Open circuit detected in a primary injector. R6
40 • Open circuit detected in a secondary injector. R6
41 - Lean angle sensor: open or short circuit detected.
42 - No normal signals are received from the speed sensor. Open or short circuit detected in the Neutral switch.
43 - The ECU is unable to monitor the battery voltage (an open circuit in the line to the ECU). Power supply to the injectors and the fuel pump is not normal.
44 - An error is detected while reading or writing on EEPROM (C0 adjustment value).
46 - Power supply to the fuel injection system is not normal.
50 • Faulty ECU memory. (When this malfunction is detected in the ECU, the fault code number might not appear on the meter.)
59 • Throttle position sensor (for throttle cable pulley): open or short circuit detected. Throttle position sensor (for throttle cable pulley) coupler connection is loose.
60 • Throttle servo motor: open or short circuit detected. Defective throttle servo motor. Malfunction in ECU (servo motor driving system).

Er-1 - No signals are received from the ECU.
Er-2 - No signals are received from the ECU within the specified duration.
Er-3 - Data from the ECU cannot be received correctly.
Er-4 - Non-registered data has been received from the meter.

ECU memory check:
60: EEPROM fault code display. No Fault = 00, 01 - 02 Fault detection cylinder. (01: #1 and #4 // 02: #2 and #3)
61 : Error Code memory log - Displays 00 if no error code in memory, displays the Error Code if any (11 to 50). Display changes every two seconds if more than one Error Code in memory, then starting at the LOWEST CODE FIRST and goes up if others exist .
62 : Malfunction history code erasure. 00 = No history, 01- 17 = History exists. To clear the memory, switch the Engine Run Switch to ON position (no backup).
70 : Control number, display from 0 to 255

Following ERROR codes DO NOT allow engine to run:
12-19-30-41-50 and Er-1 to Er-4
Error code 11 allow engine to continue running only if fault appears after engine start.

Following ERROR codes DO allow engine to run but need immediate check because
default values are taken by the ECU: 13-14-15-16-21-22-24-33-34-42-43-44-46

*******************************
Setting the diagnostic mode S1 Models:
1. Turn the main switch to “OFF” and set the engine stop switch to “STOP”.
2. Disconnect the wire harness coupler from the fuel pump (GREEN connector).
3. Simultaneously press and hold the “SELECT” and “RESET” buttons, turn the main switch to “ON”, and continue to press the buttons for 8 seconds or more.

• All displays on the meter disappear except the clock and trip-meter displays.
• “dIAG” appears on the LCD meter.​

4. Press the “SELECT” button to select the C0 adjustment mode “C0” or the diagnostic mode “dIAG”. US bikes will only display "dIAG", unless a jumper wire is grounding a pin in the harness to enable C0/C1 fuel trim adjustments.
5. After selecting “dIAG”, simultaneously press the “SELECT” and “RESET” buttons for 2 seconds or more to execute the selection.
6. Select the diagnostic code number that applies to the item that was verified with the fault code number by pressing the “SELECT” and “RESET” buttons.
7. The diagnostic code number appears on the LCD meter (01-70).

• To decrease the selected diagnostic code number, press the “RESET” button. Press the “RESET” button for 1 second or longer to automatically decrease the diagnostic code numbers.
• To increase the selected diagnostic code number, press the “SELECT” button. Press the “SELECT” button for 1 second or longer to automatically increase the diagnostic code.​

 

[grbl]

Re: The Plot Thickens

Thanks a lot for posting the diagnostic info. I'm relying on what the mechanics said, that I won't damage anything running on 2 cylinders. I think the bike isn't injecting fuel into the pair that it can't spark, otherwise I'd be empty instead of on half a tank right now.

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: The Plot Thickens

Not true... Its simply not that safisticated. Yer mechanic needs a New lesson. Raw fuel removes lubrication.

Not only is straining the rods, wrist pins, crank bearings, it's also rinsing the oil from the cylinders walls, pistons and rings which could result in significant loss of compression...
So, loosing spark under load at high rpm is basically reducing the longevity of the engin. Not to mention that fuel is also flowing past the exhaust valve diluting the oil meant to lubricate the stem...
Because the cylinders are not up to operating temperature, there is more wear and scuffing there too...

Over all if it's not life and death, park it.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: The Plot Thickens

I wouldn't ride it as it is.

Loosing spark does NOT mean there's NO fuel being injected into the two cylinders as noted above. MOST LIKELY it IS getting FUEL.

Park it till the coils come in.

**Besides the incorrect information (and potentially damaging) he's passing on to you,
Charging $800 for a set of coils, IMO, is ridiculous. I'd be finding another shop, no doubt..

 

[Motogiro]

Re: The Plot Thickens

Thanks a lot for posting the diagnostic info. I'm relying on what the mechanics said, that I won't damage anything running on 2 cylinders. I think the bike isn't injecting fuel into the pair that it can't spark, otherwise I'd be empty instead of on half a tank right now.

I also considered that the ECU might stop those injectors related to the error code failure on the coil but as others have stated, park it and wait for the parts. $800???? The other facts on this failure are to be sure it's an actual coil failure the coil would need to be tested for primary winding failure. The primary winding may have an intermittent open where it works and then fails at a specific temperature range etc. You should also check the pins on the ECU to make sure they are clean and not corroded. The ECU controls the firing of the 2 coils used to fire the 4 cylinders. If there is a failure of one of the pins or an open transistor in the ECU you may also see the same error codes and the coil will fail to fire. Maybe that's why the mechanic is quoting you $800 for the repair? He may be considering the failure is in the ECU. If this is a permanent failure of the coil it will be obvious by doing a resistance test on the primary winding of the suspect coil. If the primary winding is open, why? Did the primary winding open as result of a shoted switching transistor failure in the ECU? So the quote of $800 may not be that far off before we actually know how the failure has occurred.
My money is still on the coil primary winding failure..

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: The Plot Thickens

What is interesting is that the ECU continues to do error checking and it randomly Springs to life running on all 4. This implies that even when there is an error code, fuel is present OR as it continues its diagnostic loop it finds "the coil test" to be acceptable, turns off MIL lamp and fires all 4, but stores the coil fault... So the question is; does your yellow MIL lamp go off or it always on?


More testing needs done as it still remains uncertain as to which components are at fault. ECU, coil (s), harness or something else...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: The Plot Thickens

I'm getting fresh popcorn.....

 

[grbl]

Re: The Plot Thickens

The parts are in! I'm working from home today. The bike ran on 4 for 95% of yesterday's commute, so that was nice. If I had alternate transportation during the day, or I could have worked from home all week, I'd have left the poor dear parked.

The MIL lamp went on and off pretty much instantaneously with the change in power delivery. Sometimes it switched on and off (or vice versa) for just a fraction of a second, again along with power delivery.

I'll try to get all the connections clean while I'm in there.

 

[grbl]

Re: The Plot Thickens

I dropped the radiator, pulled the boots, pulled the tank, pulled the battery. The previous owner had cut the coil mount from the battery box and the plastic rivet was detached, but the connector didn't look loose or anything. The battery that's in there is also too big, the airbox is pushed back, and some screws are missing. But none of that should cause the problem.


So I went to disconnect it, and it turns out the spade of the connector was inside the rubber boot, but not inside the actual connector hole. :disapprove:


I could have fixed it a week ago, in about 5 minutes, had I known the problem. I just hope that was the only problem. Anybody want the extra set of coils I picked up from ebay? I'm going to ride it a week and pass them on if it runs like a champ. The smart money is always on "previous owner did something stupid"!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: The Plot Thickens

A little digging / looking goes a long way.

We can't see that from this side of the screen until you find it and post a pic.

Glad you found it- BASIC STUFF.....


From post #3, posts back: "swap the power and ecu ground wires from" one coil set to the other"


Not to hammer you, but it would make things so much easier if posters would follow suggestions, even for basic stuff. Your trip to the dealer took longer than to find that... And then for them to want to order coils without testing-or plugging it in is in-excusable...