Bit Again - cure for bad vibrations, Spark Plug Caps!!

[FinalImpact]

Lets just say this is a repeating event as the #2 wire has failed for the 4th time!

The tell tale sign is vibes to the @ss through the seat! They start at 3800 RPM and are VERY noticeable through the whole 4K range.

The brass screw pushes the copper wire strands off center!
--> Click image to see original Help thread!



After ~5000 miles....


This time I wrapped the wire with Kapton tape so the outside had less free room to expand. But seriously, the #2 wire is NOT like the others and keeps failing pushing the copper core off center until vibes occur!

Point: these things CAN AND DO REPEAT! Not our first rodeo! Now for a better solution!

Added link:
Some light reading: Understanding Spark Plug Wires

 

[major tom]

I just replaced my plugs for the 1st time(16000 miles-they still looked fine-lots of ethanol free gas regular grade if that makes a difference) After previously reading your posts on this subject I proceeded with extreme caution and apprehension not to stress the wires and the caps. Difficult for me while following the shop manual's directions. I was relieved when the vibration which occurs at 8K+ was the same. How do you figure this damage occurs Mr. Impact?

 

[ozgurakman]

how about zip ties for cables?

 

[pulsar2]

Do you think that cable is under stress - trying to pull away from the brass screw sideways? Overtime the stress would push the strands to the side I think. If that is the case, rerouting the wire to remove any tension/stress at the cable-cap junction should cure the problem. Again, I am sure you would have already considered it.

 

[FinalImpact]

Really I just think its p$ss poor design as the inner jacket is soft insulating (perhaps a blend of silicone), and over time it simply allows the core to move away on "some wires".

So the question is; why are some OK and others fail? It seems the material on wire #2 is very pliable and/or soft. There was no arcing, burning, melting, blackness. Just a noticeable harmonic vibe and the fact that once I cut the Ziptie off the boot it spun freely with no resistance or desire to snug up tight.


One does have to wonder if the COIL END is subject to the same fate? Less heat and vibes but I'd guess they used the same design there, but IDK! Never had it apart.

Anyone with a Spare Coil care to remove the wire and see?

JM2C but the wire should have a proper terminator, like a crimp onto something that then clicks onto the cap. This method relies heavily on the wires insulation to maintain conformity and keep the wire strands in contact which it isn't doing well.

Like I said, I placed a few wraps of Kapton tape around the end and threaded it in. Hopefully taking away some of the freedom the wire has to expand and move away.

Again: the point here as that SOME of these machines are repeat offenders. So just because you looked it a year ago it doesn't mean it didn't replay. FWIW: Wires are not stressed and have nice angles into the caps.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I would, one at a time, get some / install some heat shrink and put it over the end of the wire (and of course heat to shrink).

Put one over another UNTIL its as taught as you feel necessary.

That'll tighten up the end considerably and neatly..



IDK if the wire removes from the coil but if it does, dump the stock wires and go with an aftermarket wire like an Accel?


Something like this;

Access Denied

 

[FinalImpact]

Shrink tubing is far to thick at least those which i have used/access too.
Thats why I went with Kapton tape. Its 0.003" thick and about 3 wraps is all that fits as the hole is tapered.

As for the wires, I looked at several and I'm sure there is something out there. These appear to have about 7 to 8 strands but I didn't measure the wire strand diameter.

Wire jacket OD is 0.295". Its solid core (no resistance).

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I gather the wire unscrews from coils (I don't re-call)?

 

[FinalImpact]

I would say the core shifts away from the caps screw. Its dependent on the wires insulation being firm enough to keep the conductors in contact with that screw!
It seems my 08 has crappy wires...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Naw, I was talking about can you remove the stock wires from the coils and put new Accel (or?) inbetween the coil and spark plug cap?

 

[buzzbomb]

Naw, I was talking about can you remove the stock wires from the coils and put new Accel (or?) inbetween the coil and spark plug cap?

I had a look at some used FZ6 coils on ebay and there appears to be a plastic clip which wraps over the edges of the coils which may only need a screwdriver to lift the clips off. Not sure how it's fixed under that tho. It may be a special clip or crimp connector, so it could be hard to replace the ignition leads with aftermarket, especially since Yamaha sells the coils and leads as a unit. Anyway I found a pic here: Yamaha FZ6N 06 Ignition Spark Plug Coil Pack Leads 04 05 07 08 FZ6R Fazer | eBay . I've clipped the leads back already a few times and there will be a point where we'll have to buy new coils once the leads are too short, if the leads can't be removed.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I had a look at some used FZ6 coils on ebay and there appears to be a plastic clip which wraps over the edges of the coils which may only need a screwdriver to lift the clips off. It may be a special clip or crimp connector, .

Thanks for the added info.

If someone has a spare burnt coil (or wire too short), if they could try removing the clip would be a big help...

I'd bet unless the wire is molded to the coil that clip would release the wire. Wether the clip could be re-used is another question.


If so, some higher performance ignition wires (like ACCEL) would likely be a good upgrade and considerably cheaper than buying new coils.

Especially when yours still work, just crappy wires (wire ends).

 

[FinalImpact]

I've seen the clip and suspect its applying pressure to grommet to seal the wire and secure it. I can only image it has a screw lug like the caps. Thus it too is suspect or may be missed when trying to solve the harmonic vibration issue.

Too bad they are not machine screws to allow a proper wire terminator/connector to be used. Like the cap to the plug. A solid secure connection. Click on one side, crimp on the other.

I had the coils out in November when the valves were adjusted. It wasnt an issue then so i didnt mess with it.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

It'd be nice to have a coil and see if that clip can come out without destroying it. Newer, better coil cables would most likely certainly help...

 

[FinalImpact]

The clip is nothing special and the least of our worries. The replacement wire could go either way tho based on its durometer rating around the core. Most cage wires are very flexible and have a low durometer rating. Thus, the soft silicone could be a curse and not a cure. If you've played with these, you'd see they are pretty stiff compared to those used in the auto industry and not just from the outer jacket, but the insulator surrounding the core is not very pliable. It relies on this to maintain contact which not all of them do well at.

 

[FinalImpact]

Some where used info; looks like ALL parts are 04 -09 FZ6 Specific. Not shared by the "R' group either.... 2008 FZ6 (BLACK METALLIC X) (CA ED.) - FZS6XBC Yamaha Motorcycle ELECTRICAL 1 Diagram and Parts

5VX-82370-00-00 PLUG CAP ASSY

2004 FZ6 - FZ600SS ELECTRICAL 1
2004 FZ6 - FZ600SSC ELECTRICAL 1
2005 FZ6 - FZ6ST ELECTRICAL 1
2005 FZ6 - FZ6STC ELECTRICAL 1
2005 FZ6 - FZS6T ELECTRICAL 1
2005 FZ6 - FZS6TC ELECTRICAL 1
2006 FZ-6 - FZS6V ELECTRICAL 1
2006 FZ-6 - FZS6VC ELECTRICAL 1
2007 FZ6 - FZS6W ELECTRICAL 1
2007 FZ6 - FZS6WC ELECTRICAL 1
2008 FZ6 (BLACK METALLIC X) (CA ED.) - FZS6XBC ELECTRICAL 1
2008 FZ6 (DARK PURPLISH BLUE METALLIC U) (CA ED.) - FZS6XLC ELECTRICAL 1
2008 FZ6 - FZS6XB ELECTRICAL 1
2008 FZ6 - FZS6XCB ELECTRICAL 1
2008 FZ6 - FZS6XCL ELECTRICAL 1
2008 FZ6 - FZS6XL ELECTRICAL 1
2009 FZ6 - FZS6YB ELECTRICAL 1
2009 FZ6 - FZS6YCB ELECTRICAL 1
2009 FZ6 - FZS6YCL ELECTRICAL 1
2009 FZ6 - FZS6YL ELECTRICAL 1


5VX-82310-00-00, IGNITION COIL ASSY
5VX-82320-00-00 IGNITION COIL ASSY

2004 FZ6 - FZ600SS ELECTRICAL 1
2004 FZ6 - FZ600SSC ELECTRICAL 1
2005 FZ6 - FZ6ST ELECTRICAL 1
2005 FZ6 - FZ6STC ELECTRICAL 1
2005 FZ6 - FZS6T ELECTRICAL 1
2005 FZ6 - FZS6TC ELECTRICAL 1
2006 FZ-6 - FZS6V ELECTRICAL 1
2006 FZ-6 - FZS6VC ELECTRICAL 1
2007 FZ6 - FZS6W ELECTRICAL 1
2007 FZ6 - FZS6WC ELECTRICAL 1
2008 FZ6 (BLACK METALLIC X) (CA ED.) - FZS6XBC ELECTRICAL 1
2008 FZ6 (DARK PURPLISH BLUE METALLIC U) (CA ED.) - FZS6XLC ELECTRICAL 1
2008 FZ6 - FZS6XB ELECTRICAL 1
2008 FZ6 - FZS6XCB ELECTRICAL 1
2008 FZ6 - FZS6XCL ELECTRICAL 1
2008 FZ6 - FZS6XL ELECTRICAL 1
2009 FZ6 - FZS6YB ELECTRICAL 1
2009 FZ6 - FZS6YCB ELECTRICAL 1
2009 FZ6 - FZS6YCL ELECTRICAL 1
2009 FZ6 - FZS6YL ELECTRICAL 1

 

[buzzbomb]

The clip is nothing special and the least of our worries. The replacement wire could go either way tho based on its durometer rating around the core. Most cage wires are very flexible and have a low durometer rating. Thus, the soft silicone could be a curse and not a cure. If you've played with these, you'd see they are pretty stiff compared to those used in the auto industry and not just from the outer jacket, but the insulator surrounding the core is not very pliable. It relies on this to maintain contact which not all of them do well at.

It's always a risk trying to look for alternatives where there isn't a drop in replacement, apart from new coil/leads. There are a few issues to overcome in looking for replacement HT leads, like resistance, core diameter and insulator diameter, and of course ways to reliably connect them to the coils, and durometer of the insulation, as you mentioned. If we're having issues getting a reliable connection with the screw SPC with the original hard HT leads, we're going to have even more fun with soft silicone auto HT leads!

I'd love to be able to replace the coils and leads with the R6 cap coil units, but that could end up a nightmare too. It might work but it'd still fire the coils twice per rotation, and depending on saturation time it could end up misfiring at high revs. Also the coil resistance could be an issue too. Anyway back to reality...

Looks like if it's an ongoing issue we might have to end up buying new coils/leads, maybe using tape wrapped around the HT lead to keep the insulation compressed.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

i just posted this on another thread;

These clamps were/ are used in the marine industry and work really well.

You can find them in most marina's. They do come in various sizes so do your homework;

Evinrude Snapper Clamps - iboats.com

 

[FinalImpact]

It's always a risk trying to look for alternatives where there isn't a drop in replacement, apart from new coil/leads. There are a few issues to overcome in looking for replacement HT leads, like resistance, core diameter and insulator diameter, and of course ways to reliably connect them to the coils, and durometer of the insulation, as you mentioned. If we're having issues getting a reliable connection with the screw SPC with the original hard HT leads, we're going to have even more fun with soft silicone auto HT leads!

I'd love to be able to replace the coils and leads with the R6 cap coil units, but that could end up a nightmare too. It might work but it'd still fire the coils twice per rotation, and depending on saturation time it could end up misfiring at high revs. Also the coil resistance could be an issue too. Anyway back to reality...

Looks like if it's an ongoing issue we might have to end up buying new coils/leads, maybe using tape wrapped around the HT lead to keep the insulation compressed.

Ya, its not a simple solution despite being what many see as basic piece of wire!

Yes, the early R6 valve cover fits but now we have new issues aside from the added current draw of 2 additional coils is actually getting the Stick Coils (COPs) into the head. Our stock parts barely clear the frame to be removed. It could mean you lower the engine to change the plugs! :Flip:

Once again there is more to this than throwing COPs at it. The ECU was not designed to handle the load of 4 coils so you'd have to piggy back some kind of switching circuity on to the existing ECU which becomes a nightmare as we need to use the signal BEFORE its switched (inside the ECU) to do this properly as adding electronics to the grounding circuit introduces propagation and that changes the ignition timing. Granted modern gates can switch very fast but its still a consideration.

I'd like to know what the aviation guys use for wire termination. You can bet its not a POS screw into the wire!