This thread again... Engine Knocking

[Goodmango]

Hey everyone. I have been following this forum for a while and just finally registered. I recently purchased a 2004 FZ6 which now has just under 20,000km on it (under 12,500 miles). My last bike was a 95 Honda CB400 so these noises are new to me. I know it has been covered a lot but I need to ask. When my bike is hot, and I rev it up, I hear a significant knocking when I let off the throttle. I'm pretty sure the knocking happens when I am opening the throttle as well I just can't hear it well over the engine noise. I am not talking about the little ticks of the valves, this is a a knock. I followed the advice from a forum and changed the cam chain tensioner. The bike sounds smoother but the knocking remains. I like to do long trips 2 up in the mountains of this beautiful country and want to keep things safe. So does anyone have an opinion of what this is? It doesn't happen until the bike is fully hot.
Thanks so much!

 

[tejkowskit]

Take a fairy to Japan where it was made Blah

Could you post a video with a sound clip to give a better idea of this knocking. Something like the following?
[youtubevid]dshImH6wYQI[/youtubevid]

[youtubevid]DjahuRUVBys[/youtubevid]

[youtubevid]PA7Z61d-5Vg[/youtubevid]

 

[Goodmango]

Hey. Ya I've seen those videos and they sound nothing like mine. I'll try and get a video up soon. I'm at work now. I'll post a video as soon as I can. Thanks!

 

[FinalImpact]

Hey everyone. I have been following this forum for a while and just finally registered. I recently purchased a 2004 FZ6 which now has just under 20,000km on it (under 12,500 miles). My last bike was a 95 Honda CB400 so these noises are new to me. I know it has been covered a lot but I need to ask. When my bike is hot, and I rev it up, I hear a significant knocking when I let off the throttle. I'm pretty sure the knocking happens when I am opening the throttle as well I just can't hear it well over the engine noise. I am not talking about the little ticks of the valves, this is a a knock. I followed the advice from a forum and changed the cam chain tensioner. The bike sounds smoother but the knocking remains. I'm a Canadian living in Korea. The Korean approach to mechanics is fix it when it breaks. Not a whole lot of preventative maintenance going on here. So they all tell me it is a normal Yamaha sound and not to worry, just enjoy the bike. But I like to do long trips 2 up in the mountains of this beautiful country and want to keep things safe. So does anyone have an opinion of what this is? It doesn't happen until the bike is fully hot.
Thanks so much!

A couple things you can do:
A wooden stick to the ear and have someone rev it. Place the stick all over the engine case, exhaust, head, transmission, tail pipe while holding the other end to your ear. A 0.75" dowel works great - even a trusty handle from toilet plunger!!! Clean it WELL!

Next, if it is a rod bearing - which seems to be what your hinting at, remove the oil filter and cut it open. Assuming this filter has couple hundred miles on it, if something is coming apart, it should show up in the filter. The first layer of the bearing is soft like lead. The next layer is copper and has a copper/brown color. Then the steel backing. So two of the three metals are not magnetic. Take a look here for chopping the oil filter open. Examining the filters pleats will tell you allot once looked at under magnification..... http://www.600riders.com/forum/gara...-you-preach-cutting-open-your-oil-filter.html

Report back on both of these findings...
Also, when is the last time the plugs where checked or replaced and what is the quality of the fuel there? Do you hear it ping, detonate, knock, rattle, upon take off? Like try taking off in second gear without reving it. On good gas it be ok and not PING or detonate. On poor gas that is below the recommended octane rating, it may PING rather bad.

 

[Goodmango]

Thanks final impact. I will run these tests as soon as I can.

The bike is new to me and I haven't changed to plugs so I'm not sure when it was done last. I'm not entirely sure of the quality of fuel here. But I did find a station that sold "premium" and so far no difference using that.
I don't hear any unusual sounds when taking off. But this bike is new to me so I'm not sure what it should sound like. My last bike had a loud exhaust and this one is stock. So maybe I am just noticing all the engines sounds and am being too sensitive.
The engine is butter smooth when cool to warm. But once it is really hot, I can hear the knock as the RPM's fall when I let off the throttle. This happens in gear, in neutral and with clutch in either position. I can feel this sound as a light vibration through the footpegs as well. I haven't been able to trace the sound yet as it sounds like it is coming form the engine and exhaust. So I need to try your wood dowel trick soon.

 

[Goodmango]

I have a 1,500km + trip coming up next week. If it is a rod bearing should I still take this trip? Don't think I'd be able to get it fixed in time..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tejkowskit]

If you find it to be a rod bearing do not take it on your trip until getting it fixed. Don't even ride it lol. If it is a bearing, the problem will only get worse until it fails.

Edit: if you keep anything under your seat make sure IT isn't the problem. I keep a few tools under there that didn't come in the tool kit and if they work their way lose can cause a knocking sound if the rpms are in the right range. This goes for fairings and whatever components may just be loose..

Figured I'd add that-try starting simple.

 

[Goodmango]

haha thanks for the suggestions but no, unfortunately it's not a tool kit or anything under seat. And thanks for the warning. I am trying to figure out if that is the problem asap.
So I made a video of the engine sound on the way home from work. It isn't the best video, I could have done a better job, but I'm going to post this one anyway so you guys can get a sense of what it sounds like.
I also took it to my shop and he used a stethoscope on it. He thought it sounded like it might be transmission or clutch related. But he doesn't know the layout of the FZ6 too well so that could be wrong. But he pointed to where the sound was coming from and it seemed like the oil pan (bottom of the whole block?) or the bit just behind the oil pan. (water pump?) it has a black hose running to the radiator. Here is the vid.
FZ6 knocking sound - YouTube

http://youtu.be/rPlk4xooygY

 

[FinalImpact]

haha thanks for the suggestions but no, unfortunately it's not a tool kit or anything under seat. And thanks for the warning. I am trying to figure out if that is the problem asap.
So I made a video of the engine sound on the way home from work. It isn't the best video, I could have done a better job, but I'm going to post this one anyway so you guys can get a sense of what it sounds like.
I also took it to my shop and he used a stethoscope on it. He thought it sounded like it might be transmission or clutch related. But he doesn't know the layout of the FZ6 too well so that could be wrong. But he pointed to where the sound was coming from and it seemed like the oil pan (bottom of the whole block?) or the bit just behind the oil pan. (water pump?) it has a black hose running to the radiator. Here is the vid. My shop guy just keeps saying don't worry about it no problem.. Not sure how I feel about that...
FZ6 knocking sound - YouTube

http://youtu.be/rPlk4xooygY

Have a listen to this and tell me your thoughts... This one ate a piece of clutch between the primary and secondary drive gears. The deformation of the gears made them noisy. --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=495qZyGxwKU
From: http://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/51623-gargoyles-my-6-a.html

Secondary Gear is the clutch basket. The Primary Gear is the Crankshaft. Look through the thread, its all in there.... Well, if those sounds seem the same. Also, have you ever dumpt the clutch on it at HIGH RPM?

 

[FinalImpact]

Obviously that one is much worse than yours and its not very temperature dependent. Beyond that, does it seem the same?

Does it look like anyone has ever had the right side clutch cover off before?

 

[rankinx]

From the video, it sounds like there is a bolt jumping on your engine, like if a bolt fell from somewhere and sits behind the cylinder block on top of the transmission.

But that wouldn't be affected by the engine's temp, so, i guess i don't know.

 

[tejkowskit]

Possibly premature fuel ignition? It only happening when your motor is hot also points to this. What octane fuel are you using over there? Make sure your sparks aren't misfiring and maybe try an octane booster. Higher octane is more resistant to premature ignition. You also mentioned getting the CCT replaced. You're sure it was done properly and the timing didn't get disturbed?

Read thisAGCO Automotive Repair Service - Baton Rouge, LA - Detailed Auto Topics - What Is Pinging, Detonation and Pre-ignition

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Randy, what noise did the loose oil pump chain sound like? Did you save an audio of that?

Goodmango- the oil pump chain runs down attached to the water pump shaft, just back behind the clutch. Could it be coming from that area? There is no adjustment for it, as it wears, it flops around. I thought I heard a deeper, knock at one or two points, is that the noise or is it the lighter ("Baseball cards in the spokes" ) kind of sound?


Probably not related as I relistened to it, also Goodmango, when you changed out the CCT several things:

Did you notice any difference, was that sound there before and obviously after?

Did you happen to check how far out the NEW CCT stuck out from the block when fully extended? (I'm trying to see if your cam chain may be stretched, nw rattling around in the cases).


Below pic is my old KLR, with the CCT fully extended, with the new chain in. You can see how much room it NOW has (had) with the new chain. Before it was almost to the block (as the chain was so stretched and rear guide worn.)

 

[FinalImpact]

Randy, what noise did the loose oil pump chain sound like? Did you save an audio of that?

I don't know. It'd have to be WAAAAAAAAAY loose to hear it. Chains are pretty happy when loose as long as they don't skip or hit anything! When too tight they don't circulate lube and the pins snap. I'd say its NOT a chain issue neither the cam or oil pump. Something else!


If i had to guess I'd say its not a rod or the upper end. Also because it does while not under load that removes the bad fuel from the equation. Unless its REAL bad fuel but it doesn't sound like spark knock to me.

It sounds like its behind the engine because the sound is NOT 1:1 with engine speed. Its reduced and lagging behind engine speed and is somewhat load dependent (accel and decel).

So my question is this:
How different is it cold to hot?
What OIL is in it?
Does it get LOTs louder as the load is increased - i.e. like 4th gear at steady state vs other gears. Pick one.
Does engine braking make the same amount of sound as accelerating in gear X?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I don't know. It'd have to be WAAAAAAAAAY loose to hear it. Chains are pretty happy when loose. When too tight they don't circulate lube and the pins snap. I'd say its NOT a chain issue neither the cam or oil pump.

If i had to guess the OP bike is not a rod or the upper end. Because it does while not under load that removes the bad fuel from the equation.

It sounds like its behind the engine because the sound is NOT 1:1 with engine speed. Its reduced and lagging behind engine speed and is somewhat load dependent (accel and decel).

So my question is this:
How different is it cold to hot?
What OIL is in it?
Does it get LOTs louder as the load is increased - i.e. like 4th gear at steady state vs other gears. Pick one.
Does engine braking make the same amount of sound as accelerating in gear X?

It sounds, as I re-call, much like the bike with the blown up clutch and the possibly bent crankshaft. The bike where he replaced the clutch basket and metal parts were physically transferred to the crank gear..

 

[FinalImpact]

Have a listen to this and tell me your thoughts... This one ate a piece of clutch between the primary and secondary drive gears. The deformation of the gears made them noisy. --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=495qZyGxwKU
From: http://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/51623-gargoyles-my-6-a.html

Secondary Gear is the clutch basket. The Primary Gear is the Crankshaft. Look through the thread, its all in there.... Well, if those sounds seem the same. Also, have you ever dumped the clutch on it at HIGH RPM?

It sounds, as I re-call, much like the bike with the blown up clutch and the possibly bent crankshaft. The bike where he replaced the clutch basket and metal parts were physically transferred to the crank gear..

Agreed - ^^ that's why i posted the pictures and VIDEO! :thumbup::thumbup: Blah

Its just not as bad. Easy way to solve this one is to pull the clutch basket off. Fire it up for moment. HOWEVER - I don't recall what drive the oil pump... We'll cross that bridge later!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Agreed - ^^ that's why i posted the pictures and VIDEO! :thumbup::thumbup: Blah

Its just not as bad. Easy way to solve this one is to pull the clutch basket off. Fire it up for moment. HOWEVER - I don't recall what drive the oil pump... We'll cross that bridge later!

There's a chain that runs downwards to the oil pump as I re-call.

You should be able to see it if the pan was off. Actually, in that prior thread I believe it was shown there.

**Look at about 7:00 on the clutch you posted above, you'll see the oil pump chain right there just behind the clutch..

Here ya go: Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6W OIL PUMP Diagram

The upper gear is on the back of the clutch: Part #1: Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6W CLUTCH Diagram

The inside of the clutch hub has a gear that turns the oil pump chain right below it.....

The oil pump gear has a notch sticking out in the center, that the water pump keys into. (page 5-43, 07 manual)

 

[FinalImpact]

HOWEVER - I don't recall what drives the oil pump... We'll cross that bridge later!

The inside of the clutch hub has a gear that turns the oil pump chain right below it.....

No wonder that "other bike" was sold! :spank::spank::spank:

 

[Goodmango]

fghdfghfdt.

 

[Goodmango]

I have been following that "Gargoyles in my FZ" guy, but the sound is much different. His sounds kind of wind up toy, while mine is a slower knock. But who knows, it could be related. Here is a pic of my mechanic pointing to where the sound seems to be coming from.As for clutch dumping, I'm fairly reserved with it. I've never dropped it higher than 4krpm, and never do wheelies or anything of the sort.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxfff6x0tuKuQ0JHeWtrakRlclJvRmNPTl9ySjJpV3lVLWxB/edit?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxfff6x0tuKuMWhzNlRUZ2ZlZk52ZUI0VnpXQlQwMlRncWQw/edit?usp=sharing