New (to me) bike burning lots of oil!

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Caelanseth, if you're stuck with the bike, drop the engine and ship it to Randy. He'll fix it right up w/ a bunch of pics for us.

And, a new set of plugs/caps and the oil burning / loss will be gone! :thumbup:

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

So based upon the high failure rate of yamaha rings and valves - its the one bad apple exception (possible) OR (open your minds), there is NOTHING wrong and something else caused this<< Yes, I forgot my sarcasma pills today!! :BLAA: haha!

Never mind how compression gases expand the top ring from INSIDE the ring to make it seal against the cylinder or any of that stuff and if its all gummed up, it doesn't seal until combustion pressure is restored which is far greater than static cranking pressure. I'm sure that stuff doesn't matter much less the glaze inside the cylinder from the rings not seating. Likely doesn't play a role in this either!

Also, the Synthetic oil would not be the best choice until the rings are fully seated again. And if it hasn't seen 9000 R's While firing on ALL FOUR, it needs too. Babying it is of no value and will only make it worse! Do some reading people.. .. .. Old myths and wives tails are hard to break!

Your last paragraph (if your not aware of it) is referrring to an initial "break in" of an engine, not a used bike with miles on the clock and an unknown break in period (please re-read the header of the article, the Motoman break in perhaps?-(Broke in my FJR that way- didn't burn a drop of life in its life)



There's a bit more to an engine than spark,

As you point out, leaky rings are a possibilty, glaze too (I have to doubt this as there's WAY TOO MUCH OIL coming out in 300 miles). Something is PHYSICALLY WRONG to make this engine loose massive amounts of oil.

Also, as you point out, the FZ does NOT have a history of bad rings/valves. Agreed!


Now, ANY ENGINE, run low/out of oil, etc, WILL INDEED DESTROY an engine real fast (including valves, rings, blocks, etc. That's a no brainer, you don't need to read that in a book...


My last KLR 250 undergoing a cam chain swap/exhaust cam, rear tensioner guide, which includes removing dual balancers, cam's, tensioner, water pump, etc with 28,000 miles on the clock (by myself). My last FJR after the MOTOMAN break in

 

[Nelly]

You are both capable mechanics and have both helped many members (including me on numerous occasions) with your insight and knowledge.
Both of you have very valid points, however until this member gets the bike returned as it isn't fit for service we won't know what the issue is.
The FZ6 is not only bullet proof but near on indestructible. There have been more frame failures than top or bottom end failures.
So what we have here are two valid schools of thought but in the grand scheme of things the bike is broke, someone has paid hard earned cash for something not fit for use. As you both clearly state it needs to go back to the shop.
I can't wait until we know the outcome? Typing is no substitute for proper conversation and often the underlying meaning of a message is lost:thumbup:.

Nelly

 

[caelanseth]

Well I certainly did not mean to create such a disagreement. Unfortunently I did not make it to the dealer today; it was only going to be a basic check. I did schedule a day to drop it off on the 23rd for a complete diagnostic. In the mean time I will check the caps, although I gotta say it does seem hard to imagine that that much oil can be caused by bad spark. Doesn't hurt to check. I will also check the compression if I can borrow a tester.

I did find out I am over the maximum miles for an outright return... I just hope this will be a covered repair under the warranty!!

Also, I know many of you are telling me to get rid of it, but I def want to wait to see what the dealer says. This bike only had 6500 miles on the clock and seriously does not have a blemish anywhere. I am going to stop riding it until I can get it into the dealer.

 

[FinalImpact]

No worries on this end and I hope they can do you some justice and get things right!

I know you said you won't be riding it, but I have one question; have you ever dumped the oil to see what comes out? Look in the pan for strange findings etc? I know it seems like your adding so much oil that it is an oil change in itself but its not.

I might also cut open the oil filter just to see if it tells you anymore history.

caelanseth, sorry about the soap opera content - it was really just a ploy to increase popcorn consumption and user views! :rof::rof::rof:

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

Please keep us posted!
Thanks

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Well I certainly did not mean to create such a disagreement. Unfortunently I did not make it to the dealer today; it was only going to be a basic check. I did schedule a day to drop it off on the 23rd for a complete diagnostic. In the mean time I will check the caps, although I gotta say it does seem hard to imagine that that much oil can be caused by bad spark. Doesn't hurt to check. I will also check the compression if I can borrow a tester.

I did find out I am over the maximum miles for an outright return... I just hope this will be a covered repair under the warranty!!

Also, I know many of you are telling me to get rid of it, but I def want to wait to see what the dealer says. This bike only had 6500 miles on the clock and seriously does not have a blemish anywhere. I am going to stop riding it until I can get it into the dealer.

I just want you to be as informed as possible when you go to the shop. There are many possibilities as to the issue itself, but in my experiance, your fix WON'T be a simple one.

If you end up keeping the bike, I'd push big time for an extended warranty as this problem was there BEFORE YOU BOUGHT it. Its been running pretty much on 3 cylinders or LESS. Any mechanic, would hear the misfire/feel the power loss as well... They knew....

If it was leaking oil, different story..

Good luck with the dealer..

 

[caelanseth]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their interest in helping me with this problem. I do agree that the dealer is responsible. Iv delt with this dealer before and they seem to be honest guys, so it is a bit disapointing.

Also, the cap was loose on the wire on the #3 cylinder. I also checked the caps resistance, its 9.5K, is that within specs?

 

[caelanseth]

No worries on this end and I hope they can do you some justice and get things right!

I know you said you won't be riding it, but I have one question; have you ever dumped the oil to see what comes out? Look in the pan for strange findings etc? I know it seems like your adding so much oil that it is an oil change in itself but its not.

I might also cut open the oil filter just to see if it tells you anymore history.

caelanseth, sorry about the soap opera content - it was really just a ploy to increase popcorn consumption and user views! :rof::rof::rof:

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

Please keep us posted!
Thanks

I didnt check to see if there was anything actually in the oil, but it did seem very thin. I will cut open the old filter because I replaced that as well.

 

[FinalImpact]

9.5 to 10.5K ohms is normal for a cap so that is good. Was the cap not seated on the plug or was the wire was loose in the cap?

I ask as one shows someone was there before and the other is a design flaw which allows the wire to get loose in the cap. Did you follow that link upstream http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-technical/48874-cure-bad-vibrations-spark-plug-caps.html , that happened on my own bike and make s huge difference. I never lost a cylinder but had a vibration that wasn't there earlier.

Also I am not fan of the side strap grounded spark plugs NGK CR9EK and have installed CR9E's with the conventional single lug ground strap gapped at 0.0275" as the coils barely have the energy to jump the OEM gap let alone anything more. The side strap plugs are harder to gap accurately and wear faster than the conventional end gap plug.

In short;
- Make certain the gap does not exceed 0.028" .
- Make certain the wires screw into the caps and STOPS turning. If the cap spins freely on the wire, you have grounds for lost energy that is not delivered to the plugs spark gap.
- With 4 fresh plugs and the wires corrected, it shout be smooth. I have 100% visibility in my fairing mounted mirrors throughout all RPMs. The bike is smooth. Should it not be smooth, pull the suspect plug and replace it.
- Run it hard and NEVER lug it. Lugging an engine c0cks the piston in the bore and unseats the piston rings on some cases.
-Remove the synthetic oil, it won't break the glaze on a cylinder as quickly as a dino oil.

Note - plug changes are easier if you pull the two bolts form the radiator and it drops down a few inches making this task much easier.

I know my words seam like a huge stretch and would come off as a miracle but I've seen it happen way more times this this single case with your bike. It will take a 1000 miles to fully seat the ring and clear the carbon and sludge sticking them. THE ONLY WAY IT WILL BE SUCCESSFUL IS IF THE PLUG FIRES EVERY TIME. So if it sounds rough, replace the fouled plug.

You finding the cap loose matters as it all went down hill from there.

 

[FinalImpact]

Hey a couple more points:
1) don't forget to mention the total miles ridden and oil pushed through this engine. If your bike still has the CATs and O2 sensor, they may be damaged.

2) as a quick test, when you return from a ride leave the bike idle long enough to grab a small spray bottle of water (keep it handy) and spray all four header pipes one at a time 8 to 10" down from the head. Take note of evaporation rate. The hottest pipes are "firing" and will evaporate quickly. A misfiring cylinder will have a cooler header pipe and not flash off as quickly. They should all flash off (evaporate) at the same rate unless its not firing that hole.

Its quick and easy to see which ones are firing.

Not to drag this out too long but I've been here before and the cost can be high for a new plug every 300 miles. You can scrape off the large oil deposits, clean with acetone or lacquer thinner, and then heat them with a propane torch to burn off the oil. The plug sees 1600F in the combustion chamber so heating the threaded body to 600F is not going to damage the plug. Place the suspect plug into a GOOD cylinder and move a clean plug to the oil burning hole. Rotate as needed when misfire occurs. Well unless you can afford to buy stock in NGK! If all goes well it will fix itself in a single iteration of new plugs at the proper gap.

 

[caelanseth]

Im not sure if this is a game changer or not but I checked my coolant. Its oily as hell. Could this still be caused by a ring not properly sealing? I doubt its a gasket. PCV? (if ours bike have one)

I will still check all my caps and the cr9e's are quite a bit cheaper so I might just put new plugs in. I just bought a new cr9ek and seemed to have misplaced it. GRRRR!

 

[mave2911]

If there is oil in the water, there is water in the oil! (no wonder it looked thin!)

That is a blown head gasket, to be sure. (or a cracked head)

I'd be taking it back to the dealer ASAP, and leaving it there....

Cheers,
Rick

P.S. As for 'lugging' the engine, IMHO, unless you're going up a hill, or trying to accelerate aggressively, having it in 6th in town, just tootling along, is fine.

Just remember to take it out and give 'er a good run, when you can.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

If there is oil in the water, there is water in the oil! (no wonder it looked thin!)

That is a blown head gasket, to be sure. (or a cracked head)

I'd be taking it back to the dealer ASAP, and leaving it there....

Cheers,
Rick

P.S. As for 'lugging' the engine, IMHO, unless you're going up a hill, or trying to accelerate aggressively, having it in 6th in town, just tootling along, is fine.

+1 on the above.

I wouldn't even start it as the "oil" is NOT lubricating as it should, diluted. I wouldn't bother with the plugs, your throwing your money away at this point..

Unfortunatly, besides having to pull the head, you don't know how much (if any ) damage has occurred to all the bearings (especially the camshaft journals, crankshaft journals). Most of your ring sesating/glazing, etc, is done at the initial break in, NOT 6,000 miles later. And yes, dino oil is better for break in as is various throttle / RPM's, heating and cooling cycles.


BTW, cruising around at 3-4 k RPM's won't hurt anything... If the engine starts bucking (say going uphill or lower RPM's), that's lugging and definitly NOT GOOD...

 

[caelanseth]

Well atleast I know what is going on. Still.... very dissapointing. Like I said, the guys at the dealer seem to be fairly honest and sounded genuinly surprised when I told him the issue. I am taking it in next tuesday... Ill have to ride it the 60 mile trip there, hopefully it doesn't cause further damage.

I do have an extended warranty but I am not sure if it wil be covered, but I do know that I will only pay for 1/2 of the repair because it occured within 30 days of purchase. Anyone have any idea what the labor charges will be? I was thinking 3-4 hundred, but that is just a guess. Also, I hope they can determine if their is any additional internal damage, which for sure should be covered under warranty.

 

[motojoe122]

Well atleast I know what is going on. Still.... very dissapointing. Like I said, the guys at the dealer seem to be fairly honest and sounded genuinly surprised when I told him the issue. I am taking it in next tuesday... Ill have to ride it the 60 mile trip there, hopefully it doesn't cause further damage.

I do have an extended warranty but I am not sure if it wil be covered, but I do know that I will only pay for 1/2 of the repair because it occured within 30 days of purchase. Anyone have any idea what the labor charges will be? I was thinking 3-4 hundred, but that is just a guess. Also, I hope they can determine if their is any additional internal damage, which for sure should be covered under warranty.

I would highly suggest not riding it there if you can avoid it, just to prevent any further damage. Do you have a truck or a trailer?

 

[darius]

Well atleast I know what is going on. Still.... very dissapointing. Like I said, the guys at the dealer seem to be fairly honest and sounded genuinly surprised when I told him the issue. I am taking it in next tuesday... Ill have to ride it the 60 mile trip there, hopefully it doesn't cause further damage.

I do have an extended warranty but I am not sure if it wil be covered, but I do know that I will only pay for 1/2 of the repair because it occured within 30 days of purchase. Anyone have any idea what the labor charges will be? I was thinking 3-4 hundred, but that is just a guess. Also, I hope they can determine if their is any additional internal damage, which for sure should be covered under warranty.

You're in a real bad spot. Shop rates are normally somewhere around $100 an hour.

Maybe you can negotiate a free diagnosis of the issue at least. If they diagnose the fault as a trashed engine and not cost effective to rebuild, see what kind of deal you can get. % of cash back? Trade in?

Make sure the manager is aware of what is going on and in these conversations. Do you have a buddy or two to have with you while at the shop to back you up? With big muscles.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Just to do the head gasket (if nothing else is broke) I suspect would be at least a full day.

Should you ride it, your literally puttting an excessive amount of wear (and a possible engine seizure-that means the engine is junk) on the engine.

Depending on your warranty, this might not be a bad idea as once the engine seizes up (and be aware of the engine possibly locking up suddenly), its not worth fixing.

**I would confirm with the dealership that THEY WANT you to ride it and that your concerned not only for future wear on the engine, BUT YOUR SAFETY AS WELL (again, should that engine lock up)

With that said, you don't know how damaged the cams and crankshaft journals are un-less you tear it completly down and physically inspect / measure everything.

Paying them half the labor to do this is going to be a bunch of $. I personally would NOT accept the bike back unless the bearings were checking and passed inspection. If I had to go thru a shop, it would be cheaper to put a used, low mileage engine with a FULL WARRANTY.

As stated previously, there are plenty of FZ's out there.. IMHO, give that bike back, period. Sue them if you need to.

 

[FinalImpact]

Im not sure if this is a game changer or not but I checked my coolant. Its oily as hell. Could this still be caused by a ring not properly sealing? I doubt its a gasket. PCV? (if ours bike have one)

I will still check all my caps and the cr9e's are quite a bit cheaper so I might just put new plugs in. I just bought a new cr9ek and seemed to have misplaced it. GRRRR!

Edit: failed to answer those questions ^^.
Oil in coolant through the rings = NO. Could human error have caused it (possible but not likely). Seems mechanical.
Bike has a PCV = yes. You might look to see if its milky in nature (water in oil). Easy access from air box via lid removal.

Can you define, "oily as hell"? Oil is lighter than water so thimble full will oil will go right to the cap area. Let NOT jump to conclusions here.. .. ..

- Original post
Just getting back to this; many have reported blackened coolant and NOT found ROOT cause or had ill effects after refreshing the coolant. IMO - and something the dealer won't show you, HOW MUCH oil is in the coolant? A small amount goes a long ways.
Perhaps drain the coolant into a clear container and allow it to separate. Now you are in a position to evaluate how much is in there and its condition. The same is true of the oil. Water is heavier than oil and it will go to the bottom. In the coolant, once separated, the oil will go to the top.

In light of the new information and NOT knowing the compression in the suspect cylinder(s) it sure looks like something let go in the head area (speculation). These are not noted for gasket failures and although glycol looses its anti-corrosion properties, it takes years to loose the freeze point unless not mixed properly. I'd venture to guess that maybe it has a hair line fracture from being frozen at some point and/or corrosion has taken its toll.

This information changes the scope of the problem significantly. However, Playing the devils advocate, 10wt oil does look thin. A blown head gasket USUALLY results in coolant system overflow as combustion gases (HIGH PRESSURE GASES) are pushed into the low pressure coolant system forcing the water OUT; DID THIS EVER HAPPEN?
So there is the slim chance that some additive or something landed in the coolant for other reasons and these are unrelated??? Careful observation of everything is critical to solving this and potentially supporting a statement that the bike was not properly inspected before you took delivery of it.

Sorry.. .. ..

 

[Nelly]

Now you have highlighted the problem to the garage you shouldn't ride it. It's their problem, still within warranty I would ask them to come and collect it as it is a safety risk to yourself and other road users if the engine lets go.
It's also in their interest to minimise the damage as they will be footing some of the costs.
If I was in your position I would not take the bike back [after repair] and this would be my starting point. The goods are not fit for service the dealer would need to do something pretty good to reassure me that the machine was mechanically sound.
I wish you luck and hope for a positive outcome,

Nelly:thumbup:

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Any updates???