08 S2 -- Won't Start - Any Input is Appreciated

[chunkygoat]

Hello All,

It's been quite a while since I've posted - however I do browse the forums still regularly. I wish had something notably positive to post about - however I have found myself in a predicament and could really use any advice or input anyone may have before I start tearing the bike apart getting to the root of the problem.

The situation:

7:35am I took the bike into work today, as usual - filled the tank with gas on the way, and arrived early. I figured I would stop by the grocery store down the street before work and pick up some supplies.

7:52am On my way out, I started the bike -- as normal, and made the blunderous mistake of pressing the start button a second time :spank:, after the motor had already been running. Upon pressing the starter the 2nd time, the bike immediately shut off without making any strange noises. I attempted to start the bike again, with no prevail. The engine turns, once, twice, then the starter clicks a few times.

8:02am I decide, since I am right down the street, to walk to work and deal with it over lunch or after work.

12:05pm I head back over to the grocery store over lunch, and try to start it with the same result. Engine turns twice over, then makes a meager attempt to turn once more, then the starter clicks a few times. I believe the cluster reset every attempt made as well.

12:07pm I notice the "overflow tube" (not sure if this is the proper term) -- the hose that runs underneath the bike, that I assume comes from the gas tank --appears to be steadily spewing vapor gasoline with a steady drip. I am not sure if this is related to my error or is just a result of having just filled my gas tank.

My first thought was battery as the starter still sounds as if it is still engaging and turning the engine a few times. I have heard the ECU will stop the bike from starting if the voltage is too low. After work, I'd like to try to bump/compression start it and see if there are any positive results. If I cannot seem to get it started, I will call the AllState motor club and get my free tow home and sort it out there where I have all my tools.

In the past, twice before, I have killed the battery due to leaving the key in the on position. Over last winter, I didn't have a battery tender until about February so that battery, on top of being 6+ years old, I feel was on its way out before the incident - this could have just been the catalyst. I will certainly measure the voltage both under load and not under load when I get home to hopefully spot something.

I cannot see how pressing the starter button, with the motor running, would damage the battery.
-Does this sound plausible?
-Could it potentially draw hellacious amounts of current or reverse polarity?
-Has anybody else made this mistake and had a similar effect?
-If so, how was the issue resolved?
-Does the over flow hose dripping gasoline indicate an issue with the fuel pump, fuel injectors, gas tank, or any other fuel related system?

Any input before tow her home and start poking around would be tremendously appreciated. I am hoping it is just the battery -- or at least a simple fix.

Thanks you guys for any advice or input you might have.

-Matt

 

[FinalImpact]

Hello All,

Any input before tow her home and start poking around would be tremendously appreciated. I am hoping it is just the battery -- or at least a simple fix.

Thanks you guys for any advice or input you might have.

-Matt

Well that's a bummer. :/
First off the fuel thing seems unrelated and to your point, just filling it and setting in the sun perhaps?

The starter has a sprag style over run clutch. Should the engine exceed its rotational speed, if all is well, no load is imposed on the starter and it would basically be ignored just as it is when the engine is running. So, as far as adding a charge back into the system, it seems unlikely/impossible. If the sprag clutch were faulty, it would spin the starter in excess all the time and that would be evident by god awful noises.

Call it chance, but it seems to come down to couple things;
Check all battery connections, starter relay connection (on the batteries top), grounds, and if possible the lead to the starter.
Try to push start (use 2nd gear if possible), pull clutch in IMMEDIATELY after spinning engine up.

- Once home, if it doesn't fire off; check battery voltage while off, while key is on, and while cranking. If all is well expect about:
12.6 ~ 12.9V All off.
11.8 ~ 12.2V key on
10.0 ~ 11.0V while cranking. Aged batteries may be lower and still start.

PS - with the SEAT OFF, you can reach into the Regulator Rectifier RED and BLACK leads which go straight to the battery. This makes spot checks easy Although longer probes are needed.

Battery Voltage can be checked from the RR w/the seat off:
Shown is Cold start, @ 1500 RPM, 14.4vdc

 

[Motogiro]

I agree!!!^^^^^

How long is your commute? If it's short and you don't get enough higher RPM charge time it may take it's toll.

 

[chunkygoat]

Thanks for the quick replies! I'll start her off here by saying I've gotten her home safe and sound without using a tow truck. I had actually called for it, and while waiting got her push started -- and ended up cancelling the tow.

I agree!!!^^^^^

How long is your commute? If it's short and you don't get enough higher RPM charge time it may take it's toll.

Commute is about 25 miles, 20 of which are highway. RPMs seen are often in the area of 6 - 8k (I've done the 520 -1 FS +1 RS conversion).

Well that's a bummer. :/
First off the fuel thing seems unrelated and to your point, just filling it and setting in the sun perhaps?

The starter has a sprag style over run clutch. Should the engine exceed its rotational speed, if all is well, no load is imposed on the starter and it would basically be ignored just as it is when the engine is running. So, as far as adding a charge back into the system, it seems unlikely/impossible. If the sprag clutch were faulty, it would spin the starter in excess all the time and that would be evident by god awful noises.

Call it chance, but it seems to come down to couple things;
Check all battery connections, starter relay connection (on the batteries top), grounds, and if possible the lead to the starter.
Try to push start (use 2nd gear if possible), pull clutch in IMMEDIATELY after spinning engine up.

- Once home, if it doesn't fire off; check battery voltage while off, while key is on, and while cranking. If all is well expect about:
12.6 ~ 12.9V All off.
11.8 ~ 12.2V key on
10.0 ~ 11.0V while cranking. Aged batteries may be lower and still start.

PS - with the SEAT OFF, you can reach into the Regulator Rectifier RED and BLACK leads which go straight to the battery. This makes spot checks easy Although longer probes are needed.

Battery Voltage can be checked from the RR w/the seat off:
Shown is Cold start, @ 1500 RPM, 14.4vdc

The fuel drip, I suppose, may be attributed to having just filled up. The bike was sitting in a parking lot in the beating sun. This is a new to me as I have never truly noticed fuel dripping like this before.

Thanks for the great info on how the starter engages. I wanted to start simple before tracing connections as this seemed to be purely an electrical event occurring. No connections should have been severed or interrupted.



Now I am thankful that at this point, it appears to be 100% the battery. I am baffled as to how engaging the starter could have triggered this - or perhaps it is just coincidental, however the battery started up every time flawlessly up until the even occurred.

Play by play:
1:40pm I left work early using some personal hours to go tend to the issue. I called a tow truck, and while I waited - I got my first chance to use the mini DMM I purchased on eBay for 8$ a few months back. I didn't even have to lift the tank to measure voltage, I used the pigtail coming from the battery that I had installed to connect my trickle charger.

2:05pm
Key Off - 12.1vdc
Key On - 11.9vdc
Cranking - 7vdc
Dead Battery


2:06pm I waddled the bike as fast as I could down the parking lot, thankfully it was slightly sloped (in my favor). First try dumping the clutch in 2nd -- bike fired right up.

2:07pm I called the tow truck company and cancelled the tow.

3:15pm I arrive home safe and sound.


So at this point, I am charging the battery - however I anticipate needing a to replace it. Now, I really want to understand the relation between the event of starting the starter and how it could have damaged the battery. If what you have said is true, Final, the starter would have simply been ignored for the 2nd press.

Perhaps it was just coincidence and the battery's life came to an end there. I want to keep a close eye on the starter and over the next week only take it for short trips in the event it fails.

I just to thank you guys for the advice, and to keep this fully documented in case anybody in the future experiences this and stumbled across this thread while scavenging the forums.

Thanks again you guys.

 

[FinalImpact]

No explanation on why the battery would die at this moment. There may be some electrical something hidden (causing this) but I sure don't see it.

-> I'd guess your battery just gave you the :Flip:!!! You'd think if needed money thrown at it, it'd at least get you all the way to work! :don'tknow:

The mechanical connection:
In this picture you see the end of the starter.
Missing is an step down idler gear and shaft.
Then the ring gear on the sprag clutch behind the stators rotor (magnets).

The starter is always in contact with the reduction gear and the reduction gear is always in contact driven gears clutch assembly on the stator. These are one of the few "one-way clutches" that can handle high speed over-run and not be compromised.

Not sure why the diagrams have no teeth, but here ya go. 1 is the idler/reduction gear. 3 is the sprag clutch.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

+1 on the battery being toast.

Just make sure you have it fully charged before installing it (its 80% charged) for a longer life. (battery tender, etc, approx 1.25 amps is good..

Also, once its in and the bike running, check your charging voltage making sure its staying above 13 volts, Finalimpacts #'s are accurate for charging rates. 5,000 RPM's are the max for charging. Hold the throttle steady for a few seconds to le the voltage regulator even out for a max #.

3-6 years is the average life of our batteries per Yuasa.


If the charging voltage stays low, (likely won't) you should be fine.

My failing battery (about 3.5 years old) has dropped as low as 8 volts and still cranked up. Its been staying around 10 -11 volts cranking. My dash will occassionally go blank for a split second cranking but I haven't lost the clock yet. Once the clock starts re-setting, its defiinitly time to put the new one in..