Bad Idle/Loss of Power w/o DB Killers?

[Gelvatron]

View attachment 51995 This post is getting to serious I hope it all works out for you a lot of these gentlemen know a lot about this just try to keep it simple and don't install any vibrations

On a second not if the smoke comes out the computer that's bad too

 

[mikeshungry]

Hey guys sorry I've been unable to follow the last few days, in the snow removal business and its been snowing a **** load.

The bike definitely does have decent vibrations from about 65-80mph, my hand would go numb from the vibrations after a few minutes. Now that I think of it I don't remember the bike vibrating before I put those Scorpions on. As far as loss of power the bike feels slower off the line, just real low low-end torque with the dB killers out. It feels more responsive with them in, which I don't understand.

The bike has about 18k miles. I just put new spark plugs in last season, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to take a look at those again.

As far as I know the bike has ever had a valve adjustment or a throttle body sync. I bought it with 14k miles.

I'll take a video of the bike in the next or two(bikes stored in garage at familys) and I'll show you guys what I'm experiencing.

Thanks for all the input. I'll Have the video up soon guys.

 

[FinalImpact]

Scott,
Please remain on topic as mixing threads of different issues is not adding value. As for the condition the OP is attempting to correct, anyone who has tuned an engine knows that increasing the volume of air through an engine can change the Air Fuel Ratio (AFR). If the the system is unable and/or not designed to compensate for the change, it affects the engines performance. This engine runs off from a fixed map for fueling programmed into the ECM. It has a limited amount of inputs to adapt to **changes made after production**. i.e. like changing the exhaust. If more AIR volume flows through the engine it leans out as it doesn't know its flowing more air.

As most know, running lean reduces power output, increases operating temperature and often times increases the likelihood of detonation under load. That's why I asked if its detonating. To obtain another piece of information that substantiates what the owner feels.

A TB sync leans out the engine???? Are you friggin kidding me???

His issues are at idle, (see below note re CO settings)...

I did not SAY that a TB sync will lean it out. I said its already lean and although you can compensate for this condition with a TB sync, it is masking the greater issue.

From another thread on the same topic about TB sync, with minor tweaks.
From: http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-general-discussion/51820-possible-tps-issue-help.html

Some details on what a TB sync does.

Sync the Throttle Bodies?
The FZ6 runs group or batch inectors and these injector rates (period of injection) are fixed until "CO" adjust is performed (rare). However, with the use of a 4 port sync tool, you can adjust the idle air mixture so the air fuel ratio at idle attempts to maintain equal vacuum between all cylinders (TB Sync).
Equal Vacuum is based on each cylinder producing the same output power (accelerates the crankshaft an equal amount compared to the others).
ADDED NEW INFORMATION
If the power produced is equal between all cylinders, the engine is acting as big vacuum pump. Meaning, Equal valve timing coupled with equal burn rates, equate to each cylinder accelerating the crankshaft an equal amount which means during the intake stroke, the end user may see near equal vacuum between all cylinders. It is the intake stroke that is seen on a vacuum gauge. Hence the term TB sync.

Where the apparent misunderstanding lies is this: The injector rates are fixed by the ECM but can be adjusted by the CO tweak. The TB allows for minor compensation of AIR ONLY.

The CO tweak is not for everyone. Some will do it, some won't. Its not my bike and not my decision, so its this or a fuel controller add on.
A throttle body sync adjusts the AIR ONLY. In this case, by reducing the AIR you richen the mixture at idle. This will help the idle be more stable. However, the bike is capable of 14000 RPM. So from 1000 to ~2500 RPM, reducing air volume through the idle circuit can richen the AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) at idle. Once out of the idle circuits range, the volume past the throttle plates continues to DEFAULT TO THE YAMAHA FUEL MAP via ECM. So, if the new exhaust is in fact flowing more volume through the engine, the AFR will be off on the lean side if nothing is done to compensate for it.

Please note, the OP stated right in the title it has a power loss issue.

Thread title = Bad Idle/Loss of Power w/o DB Killers?

.... when riding I noticed that I may have lost some low end torque. Also the bike has an unstable idle with the dB killers removed, it bounces from 1100 all the way to about 1400rpm...

It evens up the vacuum being pulled by each cylinder so their all pulling the same amount of air and fuel (if there's no issues with the fuel stystem) and each cylinder is working the same. A TB sync has NOTHING to do causing it to run lean, PERIOD...

I never said a TB sync causes it to run lean. I said, it may mask a lean condition. Period.

He NEVER mentioned a loss of power, there was no mention of detonation, a whole lot of "IF's" in your post.

.... when riding I noticed that I may have lost some low end torque.

Are you sure about that?

If the spark plugs looked lean at idle (and they may be), one option NOT presented is richening up the CO settings or at least checking them. That would easily richen up the bottom end, IF, it was indeed lean...

Leaving No options but to replace the DB killers is ludicrous..

It is OK to leave open ended questions. Its not our bike.

Post # 8,

You could richen it with a CO adjustment, but I'd inspect the throttle body boots to the intake and make sure those are tight (4mm Allan Cap IIRC), also inspect all of the hoses connected to the TB for damage, leaks, punctures.

Now the question is; what option do you have to richen it or is it easier to just install the db killers?

As pointed out; After market fuel controller is an option.
CO adjust is an option.
Leaving the DB killers in, is an option.

I just didn't roll it all up in a pretty package.

That's EXACTLY what you posted..
Its HIGHLIGHTED IN bold :" reducing air to fuel ratio, it will only help at idle and off idle RPM. However, as the throttle opens it will go lean again"
:spank:

^^ and that is true statement, but taken out of context in your post. Please read post for details. Also the theory of operation has some good information in it. It will help this concept make sense.

I'm not into the double triple quotes and bickering over everything said. The goal here is to gather enough information to help the user.

All, the web is full of opinions. This is my opinion about the operation of this vehicle based upon what I have learned and the information given. It may vary from your opinion and life experience. Hopefully it makes sense.
Sorry it got all messy again. FI

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Scott,
Please remain on topic as mixing threads of different issues is not adding value. As for the condition the OP is attempting to correct, anyone who has tuned an engine knows that increasing the volume of air through an engine can change the Air Fuel Ratio (AFR). If the the system is unable and/or not designed to compensate for the change, it affects the engines performance. This engine runs off from a fixed map for fueling programmed into the ECM. It has a limited amount of inputs to adapt to **changes made after production**. i.e. like changing the exhaust. If more AIR volume flows through the engine it leans out as it doesn't know its flowing more air.

As most know, running lean reduces power output, increases operating temperature and often times increases the likelihood of detonation under load. That's why I asked if its detonating. To obtain another piece of information that substantiates what the owner feels.



I did not SAY that a TB sync will lean it out. I said its already lean and although you can compensate for this condition with a TB sync, it is masking the greater issue.

From another thread on the same topic about TB sync, with minor tweaks.
From: http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-general-discussion/51820-possible-tps-issue-help.html

Some details on what a TB sync does.


Where the apparent misunderstanding lies is this: The injector rates are fixed by the ECM but can be adjusted by the CO tweak. The TB allows for minor compensation of AIR ONLY.

The CO tweak is not for everyone. Some will do it, some won't. Its not my bike and not my decision, so its this or a fuel controller add on.
A throttle body sync adjusts the AIR ONLY. In this case, by reducing the AIR you richen the mixture at idle. This will help the idle be more stable. However, the bike is capable of 14000 RPM. So from 1000 to ~2500 RPM, reducing air volume through the idle circuit can richen the AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) at idle. Once out of the idle circuits range, the volume past the throttle plates continues to DEFAULT TO THE YAMAHA FUEL MAP via ECM. So, if the new exhaust is in fact flowing more volume through the engine, the AFR will be off on the lean side if nothing is done to compensate for it.

Please note, the OP stated right in the title it has a power loss issue.

Thread title = Bad Idle/Loss of Power w/o DB Killers?





I never said a TB sync causes it to run lean. I said, it may mask a lean condition. Period.



Are you sure about that?



It is OK to leave open ended questions. Its not our bike.

Post # 8,


As pointed out; After market fuel controller is an option.
CO adjust is an option.
Leaving the DB killers in, is an option.

I just didn't roll it all up in a pretty package.




^^ and that is true statement, but taken out of context in your post. Please read post for details. Also the theory of operation has some good information in it. It will help this concept make sense.

I'm not into the double triple quotes and bickering over everything said. The goal here is to gather enough information to help the user.

All, the web is full of opinions. This is my opinion about the operation of this vehicle based upon what I have learned and the information given. It may vary from your opinion and life experience. Hopefully it makes sense.
Sorry it got all messy again. FI

I'm un-subscribed from this thread and all others.


You seem to have it all covered. You are 100% correct, as always.

I don't have the time, nor the need, to nit pick and multiquote to make YOUR POINT and exclude any other possibilites.....

Bottom line,
Good luck to the OP..

 

[iSteve]

There are a few things I have learned over the years. one is everything is a trade off. You buy a exhaust to increase top end power then low end will suffer.

And if the bike runs smoother with the DB killers in then out then there is a good chance that the DB killers may have something to do with it.

Also if you have 18k miles on a bike that may have never had a sync done, then it time. I do mine every spring.

 

[FinalImpact]

What came of this? Did you ever resolve it?