Bike cranks, no fuel prime.

[Fishcakes]

Hi

Firstly, I've read the thread about the immobiliser which is currently on the 1st page and I have similar issues but his seems to be have been resolved with a fuse being blown.

My battery has been dodgey for a few months and occasionally wouldn't start the bike so i'd just jump start it. Didn't really bother me as I have a second bike (which has now broken as well).

Anyways, last night I charged the battery up (I did not disconnect the positive terminal if that makes a difference?) In the morning I tried to start the bike, my old battery cranked the bike for a while (more than enough) but failed to start the bike. I then tried to jump it off a car which was not running and it cranked for a while until I finally got an error code ER-1, although I havent had it come up again.

Went out bought a new battery to eliminate a problem which I knew existed. Still wont fire, and no fuel pump prime, the temperature gauge is flashing on maximum and the red key light (immobiliser?) is flashing red.

I've been checking fuses, connectors, etc haven't found anything much yet. Could my battery charger have killed something, it is a motorcycle specific one.

Cheers

 

[Motogiro]

I would first lift the tank and make sure you haven't pulled any connector to the pump and fuel gauge sending unit off the fuel tank.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Could my battery charger have killed something, it is a motorcycle specific one.

Hooking your charger up (especially a MC specific charger (not too much amperage) is fine the way you did it, it wouldn't hurt anyting.

Most chargers come with an SAE connector to hook direct to the battery, so you don't have to disconnect the battery from the bikes electrical system.

**In the header, you noted no fuel pump prime. In the thread its NOT MENTIONED.

Is that correct, when you turn on the key, RED, kill switch set to run, you DON'T HEAR the fuel pump prime?



Besides checking what Motgiro suggested, if you have a volt meter, please check(with a fully charged battery) the voltage both sitting(no load) and cranking voltage.

The voltage while cranking SHOULDN'T drop below 10 or 11 volts.

(My battery is borderline but still starts cold with a voltage drop down to about 9 volts)


From the Tech Section re the ER-1 code;

Fault code: Er-1
Diagnostic Code: --
Symptom: No signals are received from the ECU.
Probable cause of malfunction:
Open or short circuit in wiring sub lead.
Malfunction in meter.
Malfunction in ECU.


I believe the codes should be the same across the pond as we DON'T have an immobilizer in the states..

 

[Fishcakes]

Yeah sorry, no fuel pump priming, added that to the post. Good to know that my battery charging was fine and I hopefully haven't blown anything up.

Turn key, killswitch on run, no fuel pump prime where I would usually very easily hear it.

Another thing I should have noted is that the bike sat out in a massive storm we had in Brisbane, so it could be a water related problem. Although it is still doing it 2 days later and I cant see any water in the bike.

Battery is brand new and is cranking the bike like it is on steroids so I'm doubtful it would have anything to do with that. Although I will double check.

Im going to have to go through the wiring I think. May have shifted something when I lifted the tank like you said Motogiro, I have looked it over once but I might have to cut up the wiring covers.

 

[FinalImpact]

Yeah sorry, no fuel pump priming, added that to the post. Good to know that my battery charging was fine and I hopefully haven't blown anything up.

Turn key, killswitch on run, no fuel pump prime where I would usually very easily hear it.

Another thing I should have noted is that the bike sat out in a massive storm we had in Brisbane, so it could be a water related problem. Although it is still doing it 2 days later and I cant see any water in the bike.

Battery is brand new and is cranking the bike like it is on steroids so I'm doubtful it would have anything to do with that. Although I will double check.

Im going to have to go through the wiring I think. May have shifted something when I lifted the tank like you said Motogiro, I have looked it over once but I might have to cut up the wiring covers.

Take a look at post 2 here... FUEL TANK, FUEL PUMP, AND FUEL GAUGE, REPAIRS AND TESTING!

Using a hand held meter or a 12v test lamp, check power to the green plug at the fuel tank. Unplug it and turn the key on. If it has Battery power, use some small test wires or an old cord and connect the pump to the battery. It should power up. This isolates bike from tank. Which is it? PS black is ground so look at the plug.

Report back. Oh and follow that link!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Went out bought a new battery to eliminate a problem which I knew existed. Still wont fire, and no fuel pump prime, the temperature gauge is flashing on maximum and the red key light (immobiliser?) is flashing red.

With the above info (New battery, fuel tank raised, no fuel pump), agreed with both Cliff and Randy, the TWO plugs going to fuel pump. The blinking probably, the bike telling you NO fuel(as there's no reading) and of course the pump not running at all (no power to it)





You did check the EFI fuse(fuel injection) under the right pod too correct?

 

[Fishcakes]

I have checked the voltage when I turn the key and crank and I get nothing from that green connector.

I'll isolate the pump to the battery when I get a chance. Hoping it is as simple as having pulled a wire from lifting the tank.

Cheers guys, you're all very helpful. Will report back when I get a chance to try what's been suggested.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I have checked the voltage when I turn the key and crank and I get nothing from that green connector.

I'll isolate the pump to the battery when I get a chance. Hoping it is as simple as having pulled a wire from lifting the tank.

Cheers guys, you're all very helpful. Will report back when I get a chance to try what's been suggested.

That lower connector is positive and ground (for the PUMP and should power up for a second or two (as you know) after the key (and red kill switch is turrned on). Once pressure builds up, it'll stop being hot (for that moment until needed).

**It may help to have another person turn the key on while you ALREADY have probes on the connector.

You may also (if that does show power initally), ground your probe to the frame to rule out a bad ground..

Good luck..

 

[Motogiro]

Also..A lean angle sensor failure can give the same symptom.

Sent from Moto's Motorola

 

[Fishcakes]

Ok, so I tested the fuel pump and it primed when connected straight to the battery. There is no power to the fuel pump and the fuse is intact, checked with a multimeter at both the green connector and over the fuse holder.

The fuel sensor is reading correctly at 27 Ohm (full tank says around 30 so I assume this is within limits as it is full currently).

Not sure about the lean angle sensor, from reading around it seems like I should be getting another error code rather than ER-1?

Should also note that I haven't been able to get the error code again since trying to start the bike on the car battery, and also the bike would not enter diagnostic mode assuming my method is correct. Had killswitch off, the power connector the the tank disconnected (said to do that in the manual for some reason) held select and reset whilst turning the key to the ON position.

If noone has any other ideas I'm starting to think its probably worth just getting a professional to look at it and save myself any more time and frustration.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Well, you did rule out the fuel pump so don't let anyine sell you a new $500.00 pump.

Randy, Cliff or someone will have to chime in re the electrical issue.


Here's a company should the immobilizer have failed;

Yamaha : Carmo Electronics, The place for parts or electronics for your Motorbike Quad Scooter Car or Jetski

Much cheaper than replacing the immobilizer IF that's the issue..

 

[FinalImpact]

Well, you did rule out the fuel pump so don't let anyine sell you a new $500.00 pump.

Randy, Cliff or someone will have to chime in re the electrical issue.


Here's a company should the immobilizer have failed;

Yamaha : Carmo Electronics, The place for parts or electronics for your Motorbike Quad Scooter Car or Jetski

Much cheaper than replacing the immobilizer IF that's the issue..

Thanks.... ^^

Does the GREEN Neutral indicator come on? I know it seems a little off topic but I'm just curious. If it does, it indicates there is ground path to the starter cut out relay...

** RECAP ** Bike details:
- It was in a heavy rain
- Its got a new battery
- It cranks well (normal speed)
- Neutral light works??
- It was running --> how long ago?


Confirm the GREEN Connectors Black wire is indeed grounded to the bikes chassis? Using an 1157 bulb or 12V test lamp:
- With a 12 volt Test Lamp connect one lead to the Green connectors BLACK WIRE and the touch the probe tip to the PLUS side of the +12V battery terminal. This does not confirm it can handle a high current (Amperage load) but it does confirm its basically intact. Using a higher wattage bulb like a head lamp bulb shows it can carry 3 - 4 amps (better test)....

- Confirm the RED wire into the Green Connector is not strained, i.e. wire was stretched (looks White), and that the female spade connector does sit flush in the opening.

- If that checks out good, lets keep going.
With TEST LAMP Connected to Battery Ground (neg " - " ) :
- Probe Both sides of the Fuel Injection Fuse with Key on, Run Switch On! Lamp should light.
- Under the left pod is the starter cut out relay. Find the RED WIRE (no trace), confirm it has +12V battery using test lamp. Other end of test lamp is ground at battery NEG (-).
- If it has power, Locate the BLUE w/YELLOW TRACE. Connect test lamp to Battery PLUS (+), Turn Key on, Lamp should light. If it doesn't the ECM is not giving the command to power it. Now it get more complicated.....

Pic here shows the starter cut off relay.

One more test:
Confirm the ECM RED w/Blue trace has 12V power. Other probe is Battery NEG (-). its in here....

 

[FinalImpact]

All, take a look at these two links... Bike has an immobilizer and the fuel pump is disabled from a broken wire below the triple....

http://www.600riders.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1545

http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-electrical/54345-problem-immobiliser-fz6-2006-a.html

 

[Fishcakes]

Does a digital multimeter typically have an equivalent for the 'test lamp' you're talking about? Would this not just been a test of current flow?

I've been using it to test continuity for the grounds like you said but did not think to see if it would take any current.

Will try these new things when I get a chance.

Also
** RECAP ** Bike details:
- It was in a heavy rain - Yes
- Its got a new battery - After rain but the battery was dodgey before the rain storm
- It cranks well (normal speed) - cranks quickly
- Neutral light works - fairly sure it does but I will check this again
- It was running -->
I rode it home after the storm after having bump started it, tried to charge the battery overnight without disconnecting the battery leads.
The battery cranked the bike for a while but I didn't get a fuel prime, after battery died I connected it to a car (not running) and let it crank for a while until I got the ER-1 message.

 

[FinalImpact]

Does a digital multimeter typically have an equivalent for the 'test lamp' you're talking about? Would this not just been a test of current flow?

I've been using it to test continuity for the grounds like you said but did not think to see if it would take any current.

WARNING, I began typing..... :spank::spank:
No, they do not. (skip to the bottom for the short answer)! Although capable to provide detailed info, DMM's can be misleading.
A DMM can measure voltage and some can Measure ohms or resistance. And some can be inserted into a circuit and measure current.

- A measure of voltage shows ** potential ** to do work.
- A measure of current (Amps) shows actual work being done. (Have to open the circuit).
- A measure of resistance is a measure of load imposed or ** potential load **.

METERS:
- A volt "meter" draws no current per say so it can read a potential or "no load" voltage when taking measurements. If test leads are put across a battery that's NOT doing any work, they typically show a higher value than when the battery is cranking the engine for example. BUT -- -- BUT, if while cranking the engine you measure the battery voltage, now the battery is doing work and you see the load act on the battery and the voltage at the battery terminals drop. (Make sense??)

So that battery could be 10 D-Cells (15Volts) or a car battery (13Volts). In this case, the car battery could start a car while the higher voltage of 10 D cell batteries (~15 volts) could only run a flash light. In this case the car battery has more AMPs so it can do more work!

- unlike a volt meter which measures across the **potential power source** a current meter goes in series with the load measuring the work being done. To use a current meter you have to open the circuit and insert the meter between the power source and the load. ** MOST DMM AMP meters limit at 5 to 10 Amps!!! Be careful as its easy to damage them!

However - Test lamp has two benefits!
- if there is an energy source and it has potential to do some work it can act as a Current Meter AND A VOLT meter all int one. Why? Because it can light the test lamp as a visual cue and draw current at the same time!

*******************************

To answer your question and the actual POINT! Yes, I had a point! lol
If your fuel pump only has a hair sized strand of wire going to your connector (all the rest are broken), your volt meter could show 12.9Volts when measured.
HOWEVER - when a load like the fuel pump motor or a 55Watt lamp is placed across that tiny single strand of wire, it would not light or run a motor as it has no potential to do work. A tiny strand can't handle the load.
- Although volt meters are a great tool, they can mislead us.
The key to knowing the difference can be heat. When parts get hot (LIKE WIRES IN THIS CASE), it means they are being over loaded. So, if you feel wires getting hot, that means they are compromised!

AND IF YOU PLACE A VOLT METER ACROSS THE FUEL PUMP LEADS AND IT SHOWS 12VOLTS, BUT THE TEST LAMP ACROSS THE SAME CONNECTOR DOES NOT LIGHT, IT MEANS THE WIRES ARE BROKEN INSIDE AND IT CAN'T SUPPLY ENOUGH CURRENT!!

Dear god, good luck with that ^^ up there! :ban:

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

^^ even I understood that...

 

[Motogiro]

Disconnect the battery negative lead and set it in a spot it can't contact the battery.

If you haven't, pull the plug from the ECM and carefully check the pins of the ECM and the the plug for anything that looks abnormal. Same with the lean angle switch assembly. Pull the plug and inspect.

Pull the plug from the starter interrupt relay assembly and inspect.

Problems are usually simple but sometimes a PIA to track down!

 

[Motogiro]

Also do the test Final Impact has suggested on the starter interrupt relay. It's that larger relay assembly he has pictured with about 13 wires. If it passes the tests he walks you through you can jump the red wire to the red with blue tracer wire. Then making sure the bike is in neutral.....turn the key on and see if the bike primes and see if it starts. If it does then there is a problem with the starter interrupt cutout relay assembly itself or one of the logic signals to it.

The 12 volt incandescent test light is the technicians friend. It will help you quickly get "go/no go" answers when tracking down problems.

Get a test light! Do these tests!

 

[Fishcakes]

Will do, FinalImpacts writeup on the test lamp was very good :thumbup:.
Hopefully get a chance to do this on the weekend.

Cheers guys, will report back with findings.

 

[FinalImpact]

Also do the test Final Impact has suggested on the starter interrupt relay. It's that larger relay assembly he has pictured with about 13 wires. If it passes the tests he walks you through you can jump the red wire to the red with blue tracer wire. Then making sure the bike is in neutral.....turn the key on and see if the bike primes and see if it starts. If it does then there is a problem with the starter interrupt cutout relay assembly itself or one of the logic signals to it.

The 12 volt incandescent test light is the technicians friend. It will help you quickly get "go/no go" answers when tracking down problems.

Get a test light! Do these tests!

Also, these are awesome when your meddling with things like the ECM and taking advice from the interwebs which says, "Take this wire and short the green,blue,black wire to ground". blah blah blah -bad things can happen from friendly advice....
Because it has a light bulb in the middle, if shorting one's ECM to ground and and I'm off a wire, UNLIKE an 18 gauge jumper wire, our friendly test lamp will light up BEFORE IT BURNS UP MY ECM!!!

Think of it as fuse that glows before stuff blows (it has limits tho)!!! Every tool box should have one! I've had a Snap-On CT4D test lamp for 30 years... Its seen plenty of use and paid for itself over and over.