Engine Braking

[lonesoldier84]

ive spent the past week practicing engine braking based on advice from internet forums.

i had not been using it at ALL before and now that I have started using it i am amazed at how amazing it is. coming into corners, mid corners, on straights.....it is a SUPER stable form of braking.

so other noobs out there, start working on it. it will save your life. it will decrease stopping distances, and increase stability when you need it most. thats what i found. but im a noob. hopefully the seasoned vets will back me up on that one.

as for my question:

how much is too much? I have given it quite a bit of clutch and it wants to throw me off the bike almost. thing is, it is holding the bike back at the transmission, which is in the middle of the bike. So will the bike really want to flip forwards if given too much? if you are leaning waaaay back is it possible to still slip forwards in anything short of the worst possible way of engine braking? if you lean waaaay back and drop to first gear and let of clutch as quickly as possible without being abrupt, is that the best possible braking technique (combined with usual front and rear brakes) for WORST case emergency situations??? or do you need to worry about flying off the bike so much that even in a worst case emergency situation you would still be conscious of not giving too much engine braking?

to simplify....can you give the bike TOO MUCH engine braking even if you are leaning waaaaaay back and weigh 220lbs.

 

[GConn]

If I got the picture right....I wouldn't worry about fliping the bike using engine braking but you should be carefull not to lock your rear when downshifting. That could cause other problems.

 

[Bullwinkle]

You should be keeping the rpm's to match your speed, with the gearing it will slow you down pretty well just closing down the throttle. Don't over do it by downshifting to far or as GCon said you could lock up your rear wheel and possibly cause yourself a high side crash. You also do not want to brake or slow down in corners, slow down before and either hold a constant speed thru the corner or twist the wick a little. Slowing down robs traction and control.

Bullwinkle

 

[christod1]

You wont flip the bike. Possibly the worst that could happen is that you lock your rear wheel like the guys said above. Be careful with this because it will unbalance your bike. Also being to excessive could put a strain on your engine, chain, transmission. I'd be careful with the clutch though. If you engage and disengage it a lot you could wear it out very quickly....

 

[oldfast007]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qkRiytX5lQ"]YouTube - Jason Pridmore's STAR School Onboard Clutch / Downshifting C[/ame]

The best iv'e seen... if you get this good you should be racing!

 

[shaggystyle]

I've got a problem with everyone saying that downshifting too fast can "lock the rear wheel". Maybe, I'm a complete idiot (if so feel free to point it out and explain where I went wrong), but I'm pretty sure it is impossible to stop the wheel from spinning by engaging a lower gear. It is possible (in an extreme case) to down-shift too far and cause the wheel to spin (at a slower rate than the bikes current speed relative to the pavement), which could have a similar affect of causing the rear to slide out of line, but you can't actually lock it up this way. I base pretty much everything I do while riding on the simple principle of "as long as the engine is spinning (and I'm not braking or clutching) then so are my tires". In dangerous conditions using the engine's compression to slow down rather than the brakes can be a life saver (snow, ice, rain, etc...). It's a skill that's saved my butt a number of times, and as they say, the proof is in the pudding.

The line for everyone telling me how wrong I am starts here ->

 

[mdr]

Shaggy - if your rear wheel goes from 15 revs per second to 1/2 "instantly" it's pretty much the same result. Back tire breaks traction. Not "locked" as you accurately said, but similar result. That's why modern race bikes (GSXR-600 for instance) have slipper clutches. One of the few things I miss on the FZ.

 

[oldfast007]

Ok, Wheel lock can occur with a downshift, Iv'e done so. too rapid a downshift equaling greatly mismatched engine/wheel speed is tantamount to jamming on the rear break, albiet temporary while not very common it definately does happen!

 

[reiobard]

the engine braking is a great way to assist in braking, but not completely use it to brake, i always make the engine braking feel like using the hand brake and then i use the brakes to complete the stop,

Engine braking is great and if you practice it you can get quite good at it, but remember to always at least put enough pressure on one of the levers to turn the brake light on to avoid getting hit from behind.

 

[shaggystyle]

Shaggy - if your rear wheel goes from 15 revs per second to 1/2 "instantly" it's pretty much the same result. Back tire breaks traction. Not "locked" as you accurately said, but similar result. That's why modern race bikes (GSXR-600 for instance) have slipper clutches. One of the few things I miss on the FZ.

yeah, but in that situation we're talking a pretty drastic change, most likely brought about by dumping the clutch all at once rather than bringing your rpms up and smoothly engaging the transmission. In my mind this is a mistake on par with grabbing the front brake in a quick stop (locking the front wheel). This is why practicing is, as with everything else on a motorcycle, a necessity. Engine braking is just one more skill that can keep you alive when all those crazy cagers are out for blood.

In any case, I just wanted to point on the difference between Locking and Spinning the rear wheel. Call me a semantic nazi if you want.

 

[JPH]

I can tell you firsthand that dropping too low for engine breaking will cause the rear end to "hop". This happened (inadvertently) to me just this past weekend. My GF and I were comming home and there is a busy intersection just round the corner from my house. It's complicated, but we always take the turn lane and jump traffic there rather than sit in line 14 cars back and wait for 2 light changes.
She had just broken the peg off her shift lever and so we were keeping her in front. Picture this: 4th gear approaching red light, swing to empty turn lane, downshifting... 3rd,... 2nd......come on light turn green already... 20 ft to go...ok 1st and brake with clutch in. GREEN!!! I hear her downshift and punch it. So I let out clutch and hit it...2nd, ...CRAP!! I've jumped up beside her (how'd that happen, cause I can hear her throttle open wide) and someones pulling out of the Drug store in front of me. I'm pinched between her and this cage that tried to beat 2 sportbikes. Reach for the brake, BAM!! Pothole!! both feet off the pegs, left foot causes inadvertend downshift to 1st, rear tire hopping around for a second. CLUTCH! BRAKE!.... GF clears... Lean left, roll on throttle, clear, whew!!!
What happened? WELL... I was paying too much attention to her and didn't see the car trying to sneak out of the drugstore parking lot. RULE #1 pay attention. Also, She missed her shift (broken lever) and when she tried to throttle up was still in 3rd. I was in 1st and jumped up next to her in a split second. Obviously we were riding too hard for the condition of her bike. And Last... Hard rain had exposed new pothole.
Needless to say we pulled over where it was clear and gave each other the "If I ever do anything that stupid again, just shoot me" look.
:Im With Stupid:
And then went home and burned off the adrenaline rush.

 

[JPH]

Just an ALIBY, NO traffic laws are broken when we jump traffic. The turn lane is a turn/or/straight. but the straight only lasts 100yds and then you turn into the drugstore or merge back left. So.... only the quick ones use it for straight.

 

[GConn]

Shaggy, by downshifting it IS possible to lock the rear. I have locked it too many times when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd, when I was a COMPLETE noob

 

[shaggystyle]

Shaggy, by downshifting it IS possible to lock the rear. I have locked it too many times when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd, when I was a COMPLETE noob

How? I really don't understand how that's possible...did the engine stall? It just doesn't make sense to me. If the engine is turning and the transmission is engaged, and nothing in between is broken (chain), then the wheel has to be turning as well (even if it's turning slowly). I'm missing something, please tell me what it is. Really, I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm just trying to understand.

 

[GConn]

How? I really don't understand how that's possible...did the engine stall? It just doesn't make sense to me. If the engine is turning and the transmission is engaged, and nothing in between is broken (chain), then the wheel has to be turning as well (even if it's turning slowly). I'm missing something, please tell me what it is. Really, I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm just trying to understand.

When you are at say 8-9000rpm(for example), you downshift, release the clutch lever a bit faster than you should it will lock. Hell, I don't know why. It locks and at high speeds it's not fun at all... The why part I'll leave to the experts. Damn man, this never happened to you? I was really worried not to crash due to this when I was a noob...

In less words: to avoid this, you need to adjust your engine speed before releasing the clutch. If you don't, at high rpms it will lock.

EDIT: Do it with your car (it's safer). Try this and see that if you release the clutch petal fast enough it will lock.

 

[Denver_FZ6]

Many folks are saying "lock", but I'm interpreting this to mean rear wheel skid due to severe drag from lower gear. Since the rear wheel is still being driven by the engine, there is no force that would cause it to lock as when rear brake is applied.

Probably a moot point when your the one riding though!

 

[shaggystyle]

Probably a moot point when your the one riding though!

Maybe, maybe not. First off, I totally agree that both situations (rear wheel locked and sliding or rear wheel spinning and sliding) are scary and both are dangerous. Where I disagree is which is more dangerous. The fact that the rear wheel is spinning is almost always a good thing (or at least better than the alternative), the gyroscopic motion of that much mass spinning is responsible for almost all of the bikes stability. When you stop the wheel from spinning (locked brake) you are at a higher risk of high siding than if it is spinning and has just lost traction. If I have a choice between the two, I'll taking a "hopping" rear wheel over a locked one any day.

I should probably point out that I've never lost traction on my back tire by downshifting too quickly. So maybe I shouldn't be talking so much smack about something I haven't had to deal with (and hopefully never do). But from an engineering standpoint, I don't ever want any of my tires to stop spinning while the bike is still in motion, and anything I can do to prevent that is a good skill worth learning (IMHO).:Im With Stupid:

Here's a link to an article that I found pretty informative:
Motorcycle Safety Site

This guy has a lot of other good info too. He's one of my first go-to's when I have a question about how to handle a situation.

 

[madmanmaigret]

EDIT: Do it with your car (it's safer). Try this and see that if you release the clutch petal fast enough it will lock.

do not do this with your car!!!!!!! You can over rev it and drop valves, which is not a good thing! Go to some honda forums where the guy misses a shift and does it......... warranty is null and void when your ecu tells the mechanic it hit 10k right before the boom

 

[jamesfz6]

I use engine braking everyday. Making the tire skid is bad no matter how you look at it. I would reccomend practicing it at different speeds to see how fast which gear will slow you.

 

[JPH]

I have to say that I don't know whether I had a lock up or a skid or what. I didn't have time to look back at what the wheel was doing. I just know it felt like my rear wheel was not turning fast enough to keep up with the rest of the bike and the rear end skipped and danced 3-5 times. My guess is the wheel was spinning but waaaaaay too slow and with the back force of the engine and tranny the tire was kind dragging/skipping for a second.