I say "no way" to the bail out!

[Fred]

The bailout should not happen.

The people who bought up all this bad debt did so because they knew that there would be a bailout. It's like this.

You wouldn't buy a junker of a car for $2000. It's a bad investment.

But if you know that two years down the road, the government will pay you $4000 as part of the Junk Car Bailout, that changes the equation. You'd buy piles of junk cars and wait for the government to bail you out.



How we're doing the bailout is just wrong to me.

The houses are foreclosed on.

The banks that now own them are failing.

The government gives the banks our money.




So...

The homeowners have nothing.

The government has more debt. (You and I have more debt.)

The banks have our houses and our money.



If the government is going to bail out these companies (they shouldn't) then they should take those houses. Add up what the loan amounts were, and the bailout amount is that total.

The government then resells the houses to individuals. No companies can purchase, and only one house purchase is allowed per individual. The government sets a reasonable value for the homes.

What happens? People take out GOOD loans with the now solvent banks, and buy houses at a reasonable price. The banks won't make subprime loans because they won't be expecting another bailout.

The banks are solvent, and have customers with loans that they can afford to pay back. The people who tried to capitalize off of the sub prime bailout don't profit.

People move into homes. The cost of housing goes down some, which is a GOOD THING. Homeowners pay less taxes, and there are more homeowners and less renters.

The government gets our money back from selling the houses. They then take that money and use it to pay off some of their own debt. (Not really. They buy bombs and drop them on villages in the middle east to protect us from terrorists.)

Everybody comes out doing well, except the profiteers and the villagers.

Does this make too much sense?

 

[Jman]

The bailout should not happen.

The people who bought up all this bad debt did so because they knew that there would be a bailout. It's like this.

You wouldn't buy a junker of a car for $2000. It's a bad investment.

But if you know that two years down the road, the government will pay you $4000 as part of the Junk Car Bailout, that changes the equation. You'd buy piles of junk cars and wait for the government to bail you out.



How we're doing the bailout is just wrong to me.

The houses are foreclosed on.

The banks that now own them are failing.

The government gives the banks our money.




So...

The homeowners have nothing.

The government has more debt. (You and I have more debt.)

The banks have our houses and our money.



If the government is going to bail out these companies (they shouldn't) then they should take those houses. Add up what the loan amounts were, and the bailout amount is that total.

The government then resells the houses to individuals. No companies can purchase, and only one house purchase is allowed per individual. The government sets a reasonable value for the homes.

What happens? People take out GOOD loans with the now solvent banks, and buy houses at a reasonable price. The banks won't make subprime loans because they won't be expecting another bailout.

The banks are solvent, and have customers with loans that they can afford to pay back. The people who tried to capitalize off of the sub prime bailout don't profit.

People move into homes. The cost of housing goes down some, which is a GOOD THING. Homeowners pay less taxes, and there are more homeowners and less renters.

The government gets our money back from selling the houses. They then take that money and use it to pay off some of their own debt. (Not really. They buy bombs and drop them on villages in the middle east to protect us from terrorists.)

Everybody comes out doing well, except the profiteers and the villagers.

Does this make too much sense?

I like it!:thumbup:

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Fred....foward it to Congress, otherwise let the system collapse and start from scratch. Yes, it will effect a lot of people, probably more than others, and some not at all. I can think a lot of better things for the government to spend 700billion dollars. How but dividing it evenly with the 138 million taxpayer and revive this stagnant economy.

 

[Fred]

I can think a lot of better things for the government to spend 700billion dollars. How but dividing it evenly with the 138 million taxpayer and revive this stagnant economy.

Works for me. Of course, the money doesn't exist in the first place. And if they did have it to give it to us, it would be because they took it from us through taxes.

So they could eliminate the middleman and just not spend it on anything at all. I like that plan a lot.

Frederic

 

[Oscar54]

argh!!! i understand the gut reaction to say no bailout should occur... but what happens when 700 billion dollars effectively disappears from the economy and all those people lose their homes and since they have borrowed against their homes they lose their cars... and what happens when all those people become unemployeed.... it could be enough to spiral out of control

sure sure f the companies f the people who have been lining their pockets.... maybe even f the peopel who should have known better about buying a house they couldnt afford... BUT WHAT IF IT DOESNT STOP THERE...

There will be so many depressed homes on the market the only people who's houses will be worth what they paid will be the people who bought their homes in 1970.

Are you eager to try and finance a car when your home costs 200k and its worth 100k?

Obviously I don't have a crystal ball to know for sure if what is being proposed will work or not and I don't have a PHD in economics or banking.

But I do know that they don't know either! So I take the position that we need to slow down and see what happens. We don't need to let these guys stampeed us into anything. There is a good chance this $700 billion could end up just paying off billionaires and the banks still fail leaving us the bill for the depositors.

 

[abner]

Someone said this could be the Perfect Financial Storm. 700 Billion bailout, Iraq War, and current economy.

Washington Mutual going belly up, and one of the nation's largest car dealership Bill Heard going belly up, what's next?

Kind of embarassing for one of the leading nations in this world having to go through something like this. We maynot be as all mighty as everyone thinks... .

Hmmm, maybe the rest of the world wasn't just jealous and loathing... the USA is self righteous and self serving. :Flip:

This by no way a shot at the Ameriacn people as much as it is against the American system and society.

Mark my words, your gun laws will be your next downfall by way of mass shootings and civil unrest. Your National Gaurd already has a trigger happy reputation, wait until they face a neighbourhood full of 'about to be evicted' people carrying their shootguns, rifles and pistols. Hmmm, maybe congress has already predicted this, and will ram rod the bailout through.

Okay, maybe it does seem crazy, but not to the rest of the world...

 

[abner]

How many of you own homes?

Did you know that your house is typically valued by using 5 comparable houses in the same neighborhood. If you have foreclosures in your neighborhood then these are used in that calculation. By allowing these mortgage companies to just go belly up then more foreclosures will occur and the housing market will fall even further.

If you own a home, even if you can afford it, you are going to get screwed if these companies go belly up. The CEOs are not going to get screwed they all ready have their money.

Yes a bailout is BS but without it a lot of people could easily be worse off including you.

The great depression was caused by many factors some of them were:
high level of debt (check)
increasing prices and stagnant wages (check)
a drastic economic event, then massive layoffs now mortgage failure, resulted in a huge decrease in consumer spending (maybe)
stock market crash (slowly)
decline in the availabilty of money and banks going under (check)

So your home would finally have REAL value instead of an inflated value... I think we call that a market correction.

Someone said that the bailout would cost each American $2333... actually you can probably triple that by the time it is actually paid off by the American people and the world economy catches up with the over inflated American economy.

So the real question is, do you risk a great depression with no bailout or suffer a long slow painful recession with the bailout?

 

[Oscar54]

Well if you aren't careful the net effect of all this is we won't be working people anymore.

I understand where you are coming from, but you also should consider that the physical world is not going to change, just the intangible one.

This whole financial BS ultimately comes down to numbers on a piece of paper, and these bums at the top have violated all the rules or changed them to create the situation and F up the numbers.

We worked our way out in the 30's, Germany worked their way out in the 20's, the world is not going to end. What will happen is this unsustainable mal-distribution of wealth where top 1% earn more the the bottom 50% will be gone. And as all the Free Market Billionaires say they believe in the market, they do until it comes back to bite'm in the ass, then they want "Socialism".

I say give'm their Free Market!

 

[abner]

argh!!! i understand the gut reaction to say no bailout should occur... but what happens when 700 billion dollars effectively disappears from the economy and all those people lose their homes and since they have borrowed against their homes they lose their cars......

There will be so many depressed homes on the market the only people who's houses will be worth what they paid will be the people who bought their homes in 1970.

Theres the mentality... there is no $700 billion in the economy... its actually $700 billion short... the US of A would be borrowing it from other countries. I personally think the American dollar is still over inflated. Watch what happens when the bailout occurs... Someone already said it... "put all your money in precious metals" opcorn::canada:.

 

[swerve9031]

As a Brit, who knows nothing of financial matters ( ask my ex wife! )I find this all very confusing...

Both sides of the Atlantic people are in trouble it seems, but who is in trouble?

You have people who are being evicted from houses they were given loans on, by greedy financial institutions, that they couldn't afford to pay back when rates went up.

You also have apparently greedy financial institutions, and their CEOs and upper management who can see themselves not getting their normal annual bonuses. ( ah shame! )

Another bank is being bailed out by the British Government this weekend, but apparently the savers in this bank will be safe as that part is being sold off to other banks, just the liabilities that are being nationalised.

Lets not forget the one thing we do know.... Goverments do not have any money of their own, it's our money we pay them in Taxes

However it works out if you don't agree with it you have your vote when the time comes.

 

[mikebike]

the abject ignorance on this thread is frankly unbelievable (not referring to you swerve-you acknowledged it)

maybe you should go look in your garage at the person lurking there---- waiting for you to look the other way---- so they can steal your bike

because that conspiracy theory makes about as much sense and the "stuff" being spouted here.

very scary that the populace thinks the way they do.....

-------------------------------
now carry on ---- and do not forget about that guy in your garage---- cuz both he and THE MAN are out to get you
:mikebike:

 

[Jman]

the abject ignorance on this thread is frankly unbelievable (not referring to you swerve-you acknowledged it)

maybe you should go look in your garage at the person lurking there---- waiting for you to look the other way---- so they can steal your bike

because that conspiracy theory makes about as much sense and the \"stuff\" being spouted here.

very scary that the populace thinks the way they do.....

-------------------------------
now carry on ---- and do not forget about that guy in your garage---- cuz both he and THE MAN are out to get you
:mikebike:

WOW.........that was really helpful and constructive.

 

[necrotimus]

Yeah yeah keep thinking this only effects the "greedy rich people". You better hope those "greedy rich people" who are renting don't get evicted are start having to pay through the nose. You better hope those "greedy rich people" have enough cash on hand for their homes, cars, kids education, etc. because the credit market won't exist. You better hope those "greedy rich people" don't get laid off because their company can't get credit to expand and grow their business.

Wait it doesn't effect just greedy rich people we forgot about the consumers who were to stupid to realize they bought a house they couldn't afford. Well you better hope the stupids don't live in your state. And that the market correction that has been mentioned isn't really what the economists think it is because when the house next to you sells for 30 cents on the dollar that means your house costs a third of what you think it costs. Because those stupids just reduced your net worth by 70 percent if you own a home. So if too many stupid people live next to you you now become stupid because clearly it is effecting you.

Wait wait its all just hysteria there is no economic problem. We shouldn't believe people on either side of the arguement who say we are screwed. No one is saying we are fine so clearly it is all mass hysteria and we should just keep buying crap and running up our credit cards.

The US is a global economy on the brink of a huge problem. If you don't believe in the bailout fine if you do believe in the bailout fine. But don't be so ignorant that you don't realize that either way this is going to effect you. We are either going to pay in taxes or pay in lost jobs, increased prices, and increased credit rates. The reality is we will pay both.

So yeah I beleive in the bailout because it takes us back to before the collapse and gives us time to slowly defuse the situation rather than letting it run amok. And I clearly understand the position of the other people saying let it burn and we will rebuild. But the people who think this isn't a problem either way need to do a little research.

And if I remember correctly governments did take a hand in righting the great depression that swept across the world. :Flip: But clearly there aren't any examples of world powers whose governments save their people.

 

[Jman]

Yeah yeah keep thinking this only effects the \\"greedy rich people\\". You better hope those \\"greedy rich people\\" who are renting don't get evicted are start having to pay through the nose. You better hope those \\"greedy rich people\\" have enough cash on hand for their homes, cars, kids education, etc. because the credit market won't exist. You better hope those \\"greedy rich people\\" don't get laid off because their company can't get credit to expand and grow their business.

Wait it doesn't effect just greedy rich people we forgot about the consumers who were to stupid to realize they bought a house they couldn't afford. Well you better hope the stupids don't live in your state. And that the market correction that has been mentioned isn't really what the economists think it is because when the house next to you sells for 30 cents on the dollar that means your house costs a third of what you think it costs. Because those stupids just reduced your net worth by 70 percent if you own a home. So if too many stupid people live next to you you now become stupid because clearly it is effecting you.

Wait wait its all just hysteria there is no economic problem. We shouldn't believe people on either side of the arguement who say we are screwed. No one is saying we are fine so clearly it is all mass hysteria and we should just keep buying crap and running up our credit cards.

The US is a global economy on the brink of a huge problem. If you don't believe in the bailout fine if you do believe in the bailout fine. But don't be so ignorant that you don't realize that either way this is going to effect you. We are either going to pay in taxes or pay in lost jobs, increased prices, and increased credit rates. The reality is we will pay both.

So yeah I beleive in the bailout because it takes us back to before the collapse and gives us time to slowly defuse the situation rather than letting it run amok. And I clearly understand the position of the other people saying let it burn and we will rebuild. But the people who think this isn't a problem either way need to do a little research.

And if I remember correctly governments did take a hand in righting the great depression that swept across the world. :Flip: But clearly there aren't any examples of world powers whose governments save their people.

We always do pay. The middle class working people who ALWAYS carry the brunt of every bad decision made, because WE pay a BIG chunk of the tax burden. It always effects us. It is hard not to notice when you could buy at least TWO FZ6's every year with what the government takes away from me. Hopefully, the government will do something to save the people. But, I think what really stings for us - is that the folks responsible at the higher levels get to run away with millions and billions of dollars and have no accountability. We always have accountability because it is always taken out of OUR hide even if we never took out ridiculous loans or participated in those arenas that caused all these problems. I don't know - maybe, just maybe - we have a right to be pi$$ed!!!!!!!!!

 

[VEGASRIDER]

You really think there can be an objective solution? Afterall, the people who will be making these decision are mostly biased, as they are all home owners, above middle class, kind of an elite group of individuals in their mind who have no financial problems and probably great credit. They do not want the system to collapse and start from scratch, because of the wealth they have accumulated.

 

[abner]

Good point Vegas... Congress is worried about their stock and retirement savings while the rest of us 'working people' worry about a roof over our head.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Good point Vegas... Congress is worried about their stock and retirement savings while the rest of us 'working people' worry about a roof over our head.

That is why I think the american people should decide yes or no. November 4th is right around the corner, too bad this couldn't be on the ballot. A simple yes or no for the bailout in which the american people, the actual taxpayers who will be footing the bill should have the right to decide whether we bail out this financial debacle caused by these white collared execs. You can bet you ass the overall vote would be no, like you said, most of us are worried about having a roof over our heads and food on our plate. I don't think anyone in Congress is in the same financial situation as most americans. Yes, they will be thinking about how to save themselves, not the working class.

 

[mikebike]

I say yes to the recovery plan

without it we will be in unprecedented financial times.....there is nearly no liquidity in the markets ( i know that goes over the head of many of you ---just like how to adjust the throttle bodies goes over my head) .

they are buying hard assets and also receiving stock warrants and the companies who participate will pay a premium --- this will end up making money for the taxpayer when things turn around :thumbup:

You have got to get over the whole "their out to get me" mentality

putting this to a vote would be disastrous...like letting your teenager or primary aged child decide what is best for them. The American populous as a whole is not smart enough to do the right thing here.

that is why when this country was set up it was not done as a democracy rather as a republic

if you are struggling now wait till you see what life it like if this does not pass... which it appears it will early this coming week:cheer::cheer:

after which we will see the markets go up briefly then still tough times till the middle of 2009 then we will start the recovery (read -better corporate earnings) in most sectors except real estate (which will be sometime in 2010)

it is not you against them..... if you think it is .....go look in your garage ---I think the guy is back to take your bike


===============
PS --- nate will you chime in with some reason???

 

[Jman]

Re: I say yes to the recovery plan

without it we will be in unprecedented financial times.....there is nearly no liquidity in the markets ( i know that goes over the head of many of you ---just like how to adjust the throttle bodies goes over my head) .

they are buying hard assets and also receiving stock warrants and the companies who participate will pay a premium --- this will end up making money for the taxpayer when things turn around :thumbup:

You have got to get over the whole \"their out to get me\" mentality

putting this to a vote would be disastrous...like letting your teenager or primary aged child decide what is best for them. The American populous as a whole is not smart enough to do the right thing here.

that is why when this country was set up it was not done as a democracy rather as a republic

if you are struggling now wait till you see what life it like if this does not pass... which it appears it will early this coming week:cheer::cheer:

after which we will see the markets go up briefly then still tough times till the middle of 2009 then we will start the recovery (read -better corporate earnings) in most sectors except real estate (which will be sometime in 2010)

it is not you against them..... if you think it is .....go look in your garage ---I think the guy is back to take your bike


===============
PS --- nate will you chime in with some reason???

If you really think that rich corporate entities, big banks and governments alike don't sit around and try to think of ways to squeeze more money out of the American public and make themselves richer then that is a huge disagreement for me and many other middle class workers. I can site many examples of this. YES, I'm sorry they are out to GET YOU. Of freakin course they want to continue using us middle class workers to continue to fuel their greed machines. I still love how the corruption tries to "hide behind the complex financial layers". There is something wrong with 90 percent of the wealth being held by 10 percent of the population. You can cut all the different complex financial layers any way you want and they all bleed Bullsh@# to me.

 

[Jman]

Quote...putting this to a vote would be disastrous...like letting your teenager or primary aged child decide what is best for them. The American populous as a whole is not smart enough to do the right thing here.

This brings up another point I'd like to make. If mine and my fellow taxpayers had their hard earned money spent on EDUCATION, maybe you wouldn't feel this way.