Leo Vince SBK + K&N filter bike runs weird now

[rcruz17]

That video makes it seem like a fueling issue although it would be worthy to see the system voltage while it is misbehaving! Also, if the plug gap is excessive, it could be a factor here.

That said, this defies what the exhaust should have done but for kicks drop both CO values by -20 as it sounds too rich. Or take the air filter out for the same test.

Last bit. Next cold start have a squirt bottle of water near and spray the headers. Do they all evaporate evenly when it running like that?? The steam or lack of steam will help you know!

I could do the whole -20 but how does the bike sound too rich? changing between OEM and K&N filter didnt make much of a difference ill try that water on the header pipes trick. the exhaust canister dont really get hot at all but the pipe definetly gets hot to the touch. The exhaust smoke is completely odorless to me I literally inhaled it a few times and felt normal :smoking:

I though the bike would be running lean if anything what would make it run rich?

 

[FinalImpact]

Spray the header at the first bend below the head.

Yes it should be lean from exhaust. Yes, taking away fuel should make it worse.

The most common reason they flat line like that is the heat from the engine is not atomizing the fuel. When you blip the throttle the air above the TBs all but stops moving for a split second (makes vacuum drop to zero). The air is cold, engine cold, fuel is cold so the fuel drops out of suspension and engine is hit with raw gas. It stumbles until the temperate comes up and the fuel stays mixed in suspension with the air and is better atomized. Restrictive air filters make this worse.

It just sounds like its rich as it does catch up to throttle position. But its a video and reproduction through this device may not do it justice.

How old is the fuel and have you tried a different brand?
What was the highest you set the C0 value to?

 

[rcruz17]

That said, this defies what the exhaust should have done but for kicks drop both CO values by -20 as it sounds too rich. Or take the air filter out for the same test.
!

im confused by this bit it sounds too rich now? I was guessing that it was leaning out a lot since it gets better once bike warms up. or should the condition worsen if I go -20?

would a PC3 with the leo vince map help at all if its a Lean/Rich condition?

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm saying that system voltage, plug gap, fuel quality, fuel ratio, induced restrictions by filters, and engine temperate all play a role in how well a cold engine accelerates.

Becuase we have no facts for 85% of the items listed, using extremes helps solve the unknown variables.

Gut says it needs more fuel. Bumping C0 to +35/+35 should have helped. But you say it didnt. So go the other way and see if it does in fact make it worse.

Also I see little change in RPM from cold to warm which leads me to beleive your sync screws combined with base line idle rpm are not proper.

Verify this by taking your hot engine and adjusting the idle speed screw.
Report:
Max rpm:
Min rpm:
If the sync screws & C0 values are proper, most will get range of 1000 to maybe 1500 rpm. What does yours do?
Mind you, if C0 is at 35 it will be stretch to get that range as the sync screws will need to add a lot of air for proper idle.

Make sense?

 

[rcruz17]

I'm saying that system voltage, plug gap, fuel quality, fuel ratio, induced restrictions by filters, and engine temperate all play a role in how well a cold engine accelerates.

Becuase we have no facts for 85% of the items listed, using extremes helps solve the unknown variables.

Gut says it needs more fuel. Bumping C0 to +35/+35 should have helped. But you say it didnt. So go the other way and see if it does in fact make it worse.

Also I see little change in RPM from cold to warm which leads me to beleive your sync screws combined with base line idle rpm are not proper.

Verify this by taking your hot engine and adjusting the idle speed screw.
Report:
Max rpm:
Min rpm:
If the sync screws & C0 values are proper, most will get range of 1000 to maybe 1500 rpm. What does yours do?
Mind you, if C0 is at 35 it will be stretch to get that range as the sync screws will need to add a lot of air for proper idle.

Make sense?

tomorrow I have some time off I will try this. this bike has like no change in RPM from cold to hot definetly not 1000rpm in variance. that whole video was basically her warming up.

 

[FinalImpact]

Seeings you just confirmed there is minimal RPM change from cold to hot, that needs fixed and a side effect is it may help your problem!

Id guess your sync screws are bleeding so much air that thumb screw will have a very limited effect on idle rpm...

In the perfect world you attach a sync tool and balance the TBs while setting the manifold vacuum to spec. If successful, this action will dial in the main idle air screw setting towards 1300 rpm.

You can cheat and just use a single vacuum gauge and ser all the sync screws to the same value if a sync tool is not available.

Keep in mind C0 changes will alter the idle mixture and ability to hit the oem target for rpm and vacuum.

Let us know what you find!

 

[rcruz17]

Seeings you just confirmed there is minimal RPM change from cold to hot, that needs fixed and a side effect is it may help your problem!

Id guess your sync screws are bleeding so much air that thumb screw will have a very limited effect on idle rpm...

In the perfect world you attach a sync tool and balance the TBs while setting the manifold vacuum to spec. If successful, this action will dial in the main idle air screw setting towards 1300 rpm.

You can cheat and just use a single vacuum gauge and ser all the sync screws to the same value if a sync tool is not available.

Keep in mind C0 changes will alter the idle mixture and ability to hit the oem target for rpm and vacuum.

Let us know what you find!

ok so cold start shes around ~1600 and once she warms up shes around ~1300

I did a throttle body sync with 1 vacuum gauge and they were all matching i didnt even do any adjustments at idle once warm and at 4000rpm they were pretty much the same on harbor freights vacuum gauge.

now for the new discovery. when spraying water at the headers cylinder #3 is running colder.... all of the header pipes would evaporate the water immediately cylinder #3 would drip some before it evaporates.

the gas in there is relatively fresh I filled the tank up after putting the leo vince actually and I did about 100 miles that day before parking it and start this ridiculous work project which I havent had time to ride or diagnose this problem more.
also this is the only gas tank I havent put seafoam on even through the winter she had seafoam and I would turn her on every 3-4weeks.


https://www.youtube.com/embed/5pn4YLhyUDc

this video shows the issue I have while driving does the same thing while idling and I tried to record the exhaust pipes but its not too visible.
I poured 6oz of seafoam into her at this point and idled for about 30-45 minutes with occasional revving.

 

[FinalImpact]

What did you set the vacuum too?
Spec is 218mmHg or 8.6inHg.
If this was obtained at 1300 rpm your AFR at idle should be about 12.5:1 which is rich, but keeps them from dying when coming down from higher rpms.

Higher vacuum numbers equate to leaner idle settings while lower vacuum # < 200mmHg reflect richer AFR settings.

 

[rcruz17]

What did you set the vacuum too?
Spec is 218mmHg or 8.6inHg.
If this was obtained at 1300 rpm your AFR at idle should be about 12.5:1 which is rich, but keeps them from dying when coming down from higher rpms.

Higher vacuum numbers equate to leaner idle settings while lower vacuum # < 200mmHg reflect richer AFR settings.

I didnt set them to anything i just confirmed they were consistent all 4. The needle bounced around a bit so it wasnt even a precise reading

It was near 8.6 it bounced between 8-10 the needle

 

[FinalImpact]

Most people set them to balance them with hopes of a smoother engine. Your case is different. Your goal here is to get the AFR proper so it runs right. Knowing you have 8.6 or less would be good to know!

Add restrictions to the vacuum line to take the pulse out. Also a syring can act as reservoir if you lock the plunger out. Be creative. Even an air bubbler valve from an aquarium could work too.

 

[rcruz17]

Most people set them to balance them with hopes of a smoother engine. Your case is different. Your goal here is to get the AFR proper so it runs right. Knowing you have 8.6 or less would be good to know!

Add restrictions to the vacuum line to take the pulse out. Also a syring can act as reservoir if you lock the plunger out. Be creative. Even an air bubbler valve from an aquarium could work too.

Hmm ok so i wasnt to make the vacuum hose connection bigger or smaller? Ill redo it tomorrow morning. So i want to set them at 8.6 or aim lower? Should i be doing this with co at +25 or go back to the stock numbers?

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm saying an in line restriction to your vacuum gauge will reduce the needle bounce as the signal is so strong.
Shoving wire in the hose is an option, as are smaller pieces of tubing... anything to restrict the air flow.

8.0 to 8.6in Hg at 1300 rpm
Up to you on C0. Id try it at 25 tho.

 

[rcruz17]

I'm saying an in line restriction to your vacuum gauge will reduce the needle bounce as the signal is so strong.
Shoving wire in the hose is an option, as are smaller pieces of tubing... anything to restrict the air flow.

8.0 to 8.6in Hg at 1300 rpm
Up to you on C0. Id try it at 25 tho.

Ok my tb sync settings were at 8.6 that that was near all screws closed up? #4 was all the way in at that point.

Also input co at -20 and she was idling super low around 900-1000.

Ive noticed my main issue is when she starts sounding bad and idle spikes. Around 26 seconds on my latest video you can hear the change in exhaust note and she doesnt accelerate smooth at that point. Thats the issue im trying to pinpoint

 

[FinalImpact]

The goal is the balancing act of:
TB vacuum values all match
Hot idle @1300
Vacuum at T of vacuum sensor @ 8.0 - 8.6inHg

And the final kicker - thumb screw has control of idle speed in a range of: 1100 to 1400 at least.

When ALL of those conditions are true, all is well!

 

[rcruz17]

The goal is the balancing act of:
TB vacuum values all match
Hot idle @1300
Vacuum at T of vacuum sensor @ 8.0 - 8.6inHg

And the final kicker - thumb screw has control of idle speed in a range of: 1100 to 1400 at least.

When ALL of those conditions are true, all is well!

I think i have achieved that balance she idles at 1300-1320 spot on smooth she revs up good...but if i let her idle long enough i can hear she stumbles and spikes up in idle....how can i verify coil pack and injector function?

 

[FinalImpact]

I think i have achieved that balance she idles at 1300-1320 spot on smooth she revs up good...but if i let her idle long enough i can hear she stumbles and spikes up in idle....how can i verify coil pack and injector function?

OK so what vacuum value did you achieve?
You see, short of sniffing the exhaust the combined values of RPM and vacuum are a guide to achieving the correct AFR.

Too lean and it stumbles and dies. Too rich and the likely case is it loads up the plugs and fouls out if it has to idle too long.

So, did you ever run a T from the vacuum sensor and obtain the hot idle vacuum of all 4 cylinders?
Sensor is lower right, 3 wires and a vacuum hose out the bottom.

 

[rcruz17]

OK so what vacuum value did you achieve?
You see, short of sniffing the exhaust the combined values of RPM and vacuum are a guide to achieving the correct AFR.

Too lean and it stumbles and dies. Too rich and the likely case is it loads up the plugs and fouls out if it has to idle too long.

So, did you ever run a T from the vacuum sensor and obtain the hot idle vacuum of all 4 cylinders?
Sensor is lower right, 3 wires and a vacuum hose out the bottom.

I synced the throttle bodies at 8 inHg. bike idles ok but it still stumbles and surges at idle and while driving. I replaced the throttle body assembly with fuel injector and fuel rail in case it was an injector issue and bike behaves the exact same way as it did before so Ive discarded the fuel being the issue.

I checked my spark plugs cylinder 4 to 1 from left to right.


If im not mistaken the yellow tint means they are running lean but its only cylinders 1 + 2 that are lean and those are off different coil packs and even injectors so Im confused. I ordered some coilpacks and even an ECU because I found them cheap on ebay to try out some different parts because I am totally stumped at this point.

 

[FinalImpact]

Most of the colors evolve from inpurities in the fuel. Leaded gas is much easy to read than unleaded... regardless, 2 & 3 dont seem to be burning as clean.

I would have checked the fuel pressure way before tossing larts at it. The fact that it ran fine before changing things tells something....

Is your plug gap really less than 0.028"???
Plug gap and fuel quality could cause this (driveability). So could a bad TPS...

 

[FinalImpact]

If you bought throttle bodies for the injectors, which TPS went back on it?
And which TBs?

 

[rcruz17]

If you bought throttle bodies for the injectors, which TPS went back on it?
And which TBs?

The new throttle body assembly came with a TPS which was from an 06 from my understanding that one had no recall therefore no issues. I replaced the spark plugs with CR9E and gapped them to what my sticker in swingarm. .8 something i forget what the measurement unit was. I just turned on bike and rode it literally around block with the new plugs and put it away. Im in canada for the week and when i get back ill have more time to work on it.