Oil on plugs?

[bryanwny]

I just did my first plug change @ 12K miles, thanks to the helpful guide from jeepcoma on the other forum, and a lot of other helpful hints on this forum as well. I'm not mechanically inclined what so ever really, but felt I could tackle this pretty easily after a bit of reading. I started with #3 and #4 which were pretty easy to get to. #2 proved to be a bit more difficult and I unhooked the radiator and pushed it forward to get a bit more working room. #1 was by far the easiest of them all on my '09. I recall hearing there's more room on the newer bikes -- I'm sure it's not much fun for ppl with big hands on the prior years

Anyhow, I'm attaching photos of my old plugs because I'm not really sure what I'm looking at (other than 4 used plugs before some smartass makes THAT comment! lol). I'm thinking that seeing oil on the threads is not really a good thing, but I'm hoping someone tells me not to worry about it I cranked my flash up to +2 for the last two photos just because the other ones came out so dark looking.

Someone with greasy knuckles care to chime in?

EDIT: Is it even oil? Smells like gas. Running too rich?

 

[stink989]

Look ok man stuff on the threads is normal. Looks like you do a lot of around town riding?

 

[Powerman]

I believe oil is put on threads before installation at the factory. My 08 plugs looked the same. Electrode color looks normal.

 

[bryanwny]

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it!

Actually, I don't do much around town riding. However, I do enjoy cruising around on the scenic backroads, which are pretty damn rough around here. So between watching for pot holes/craters, critters, and checking out the scenery, I'm really not going all that fast when I'm in 'touring mode'. I also do a fair amount of 2-up riding as well. I do like to run it up to 13K or so when the road is nice and I don't see much traffic around though :thumbup:

 

[iSteve]

I think they use anti-seize on the threads at the factory. Steel plugs in aluminum heads can seize and make it tough to get them out or worse.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Your plugs look fine. I don't believe Yamaha uses anti seize but they should...

I use anti seize on any aluminum to steel connection but for the spark plugs, with anti seize, just snug them down.

Anti seize is a b... to get off but works great! Di-lectric grease on the cap ends before going back on too.

 

[abraxas]

My first thoughts are that plugs look great, seems to be anti seize on the thread.

I still have to make a thread on this, but i've just replaced my cyl head because of spark plugs striping. TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

The 1mm thread is super fine, and there is no way to repair it if it strips, there's not enough space between the spark thread and valve seats.

I use copperslip now, which i should have from the start, but a point to make here is that i was advised by many people to not use anything on the spark threads, install dry i was told, that leaded to metal to metal corrosion, and striping of the thread when taking the plugs out.

 

[FinalImpact]

The residue left behind is a combination of burned fuel, oil, carbon, etc. That is normal. It does look like #1 is not burning as clean as the others tho.

In the auto world the only time I've seen heads go bad was from:
A) cross threading
B) over tightening
C) forcing things in/out with a burr on them (could be carbon deposits)
D) leaving them loose enough that with carbon, oil and/or use of anti-seize the high voltage creates electrolysis due to poor grounding and the aluminum looses the battle. It is etched away.

Your best bet is to always clean the threads, never force anything (should turn by fingers until seated), and use engine oil as a lube.

Leaving it loose is what kills it at the pumping action of the combustion process eventually just pulls the threads out. Torque to spec to crush the washer and call it done.

If during plug removal it doesn't turn by hand, don't force them!!! Apply solvent like lacquer thinner to break down the carbon. Then light machine oil and gently nurse it out twisting left/right/left/right until it comes out easily.

Lastly, try not to swap plugs on hot engines. Depending on the clearances, some threads will bind or be an interference fit when hot. Let the engine cool before proceeding.

Hint; on my Kawa 650 stand up Jet-ski I've had the plugs out 100's of times and never damaged the head.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Quote from FinalImpact:

"Your best bet is to always clean the threads, never force anything (should turn by fingers until seated), and use engine oil as a lube."

_________________________________________________________________

Per the Genuine Yamaha 2007 shop manual, section 3-10:

"Before installing the spark plug, clean the spark plug and gasket surface". It does not mention lubricating the threads..

Also, per page 2-16 of the shop manual under tightening torques: the manual does not call for any type of lubrication for the spark plugs.

Per my 2007 Yamaha owners manual, page 6-10: It does not mention lubing the spark plug threads with oil.

Can you advise where I can locate this oiling the spark plug thread information please? Thanks..

 

[FinalImpact]

Quote from FinalImpact:

"Your best bet is to always clean the threads, never force anything (should turn by fingers until seated), and use engine oil as a lube."

_________________________________________________________________

Per the Genuine Yamaha 2007 shop manual, section 3-10:

"Before installing the spark plug, clean the spark plug and gasket surface". It does not mention lubricating the threads..

Also, per page 2-16 of the shop manual under tightening torques: the manual does not call for any type of lubrication for the spark plugs.

Per my 2007 Yamaha owners manual, page 6-10: It does not mention lubing the spark plug threads with oil.

Can you advise where I can locate this oiling the spark plug thread information please? Thanks..

It doesn't! :thumbup:

Options: you clean it and shove it in dry (not good) OR if you don't clean it; it's basically oiled already because its a USED engine and it already has a thin film of oil on it. . . The downside is sometimes carbon can displace aluminum threads. The point is a thin film of oil will Help you way more than it will hurt you. If you use solvent to clean the threads, place a drop of oil on them as dry is a bad option.

Townsend, If your goal is to discredit most of my posts, go for it. We will still learn something from the two different vantage points. Like you, I would prefer to quote the manual so no one can sling mud, but I don't have the time for that always. So how about the good points I raise up there. Those aren't in the manual either. Should we ignore them?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

It doesn't! :thumbup:

Options: you clean it and shove it in dry (not good) OR if you don't clean it; it's basically oiled already because its a USED engine and it already has a thin film of oil on it. . . The downside is sometimes carbon can displace aluminum threads. The point is a thin film of oil will Help you way more than it will hurt you. If you use solvent to clean the threads, place a drop of oil on them as dry is a bad option.

Townsend, If your goal is to discredit most of my posts, go for it. We will still learn something from the two different vantage points. Like you, I would prefer to quote the manual so no one can sling mud, but I don't have the time for that always. So how about the good points I raise up there. Those aren't in the manual either. Should we ignore them?

Not at all.

However, when I point out a product, ie: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-24110-Caliper-Brush-Top-Bottle/dp/B000HBNV6W"]Amazon.com: Permatex 24110 Ultra Disc Brake Caliper Lube, 8 oz Brush-Top Bottle: Automotive[/ame] something that works very well (and as advertised) it is posted that it is not in the manual and would stick to what's in the manual (brake fluid only).

I agree with most of what you say howver there other products and procedures that have been out in 4 years (since the owners manual/shop manual came out). Brake rebuild kits from Yamaha COMES WITH brake lube for re-assembly however its not in the manual...

I too had a motorcycle, (KLR 250, 1989- sold it several years ago) that the spark plug was always a PIA to remove. I always used oil when installing it, however it didn't make a difference removing it. Anti-seize (as mentioned above) solved the problem and it did not ruin the threads, that's with 73,000 street miles on it. I stand by what I said, your welcome to post your opinion as do I.

It should also be mentioned that putting ANY lube on a fastener (spark plug) meant to go in dry, the torque needs to be reduced as IT WILL affect the tightness (the torque wrench will click later/tighter than required).. You and I know that, a noob, reading this may not and strip the plug threads..

There is usually several different ways of performing a job/service. I don't discount anyones opinion and don't like mine mentioned to be ignored. (I do have several years of wrenching (since I was 15) and have been inside many engines and have several private customers.)

Let the reader do some of his own research and decide what's best for him...

Like you, I'm putting out how I would address a situation. There are more than one way to skin a cat...

 

[FinalImpact]

OK - all is well on our end. . . :thumbup:
AND you had me grinning when you said you dabbed oil on there too. lol

So, for the issue at hand:
O2 sensors usually come with a very hi temp thread lube/anti-seize. This may be a good alternative to normal anti-seize which is not meant for hi temps. Just a thought. . .

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

OK - all is well on our end. . . :thumbup:
AND you had me grinning when you said you dabbed oil on there too. lol

So, for the issue at hand:
O2 sensors usually come with a very hi temp thread lube/anti-seize. This may be a good alternative to normal anti-seize which is not meant for hi temps. Just a thought. . .

Yes we are...

BTW, the anti-seize that I use is "Bostik" regular grade (copper) and its good to 1800 degress.. I was not aware of different styles and appreciate the info...

I'll do things not mentioned in the manual as well.. The manual may have you pull many parts when there are short cuts to doing something (parts you can by with just loosening, not draining the radiator, etc....)..

 

[FinalImpact]

It should also be mentioned that putting ANY lube on a fastener (spark plug) meant to go in dry, the torque needs to be reduced as IT WILL affect the tightness (the torque wrench will click later/tighter than required).. You and I know that, a noob, reading this may not and strip the plug threads..

But this I don't agree with. Where actual torque is critical, it is often called out as "clean and light oiled threads" as well as cap (where the bolt head or nut contacts the surface). In this condition you are more likely to achieve the actual torque vs the the Friction to overcome the bond of the two surfaces in contact.

IMO - most will be under-torquing the fasteners vs over torquing. The plug having a floating washer is less critical to startup friction than a flanged nut or bolt with a fixed shoulder. Oil reduces friction and allows the fastener to reach the desired torque. Does that makes sense?

EDIT: Adding info. . .
OK - now add this; 2/3 of the people don't own a torque wrench so it doesn't matter!
Of those that do, they likely have ones rated at 8% or worse error at full scale which means at low values like plugs (17.5 Nm, 1.75 m·kgf, 12.7 ft·lbf), they are off as much if not more than 10 to 15%.

So the benefit of oil being used is you feel how tight it is vs how much stiction/friction the washer and threads have plus you're less likely to damaged oiled threads than dry ones. /yes, I'm done now. . .

 

[FinalImpact]

Anyhow, I'm attaching photos of my old plugs because I'm not really sure what I'm looking at (other than 4 used plugs before some smartass makes THAT comment! lol).

EDIT: Is it even oil? Smells like gas. Running too rich?

Can you get some close ups of the electrode, porcelain, and ground? Try placing the camera on a fixed surface so the shudder can stay open w/out blurring the photo and change the Exposure Compensation vs increasing the flash comp as it blows out the colors too much.

I am curious why that one plug is different.

Here is a close up a coil pack that took a couple of tries to show the arc over of the output jumping through the body and making an engine run rough. Notice the white spots to the left of the terminal? Yes, this took some patients. . .
View attachment 36665

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Something for the serious engine builder to contemplate, "ARP's Ultra torque":

From ARP fasteners: ARP-bolts.com | ARP Ultra-Torque

I saw this product used on the Powerblock "Horsepower Show" sometime ago.

This product is the cats meow when obtaining the exact torque #'s are required.. It compares oil, moly, Detroit deisel #2 and Ultra torque. Page 4 shows the discrepencies at different torque values using different products..

Besides the Ultra torque, Moly looked the closest.. The video of all the products compared was very impressive...

A bit off topic but worth the read, IMHO...

 

[ebk02]

Quote from FinalImpact:

"Your best bet is to always clean the threads, never force anything (should turn by fingers until seated), and use engine oil as a lube."

_________________________________________________________________

Per the Genuine Yamaha 2007 shop manual, section 3-10:

"Before installing the spark plug, clean the spark plug and gasket surface". It does not mention lubricating the threads..

Also, per page 2-16 of the shop manual under tightening torques: the manual does not call for any type of lubrication for the spark plugs.

Per my 2007 Yamaha owners manual, page 6-10: It does not mention lubing the spark plug threads with oil.

Can you advise where I can locate this oiling the spark plug thread information please? Thanks..

I can assure you that weather it is specified or not, after many years of working in a mechanical field, you can go right ahead and thread dissimilar metals together without lube. I want to be present when after many hundreds of times of heating, cooling etc., you try to remove the plugs.
So I agree - even if it isn't "in the manual" there is much to be learned from real world practical experience.

 

[abraxas]

FinalImpact, i really appreciated your views, and agree with MOST of what you have to say.

TownsendsFJR1300 was right in pointing out that the manual specifies dry thread, and also that lubricating in any way affects the torque settings (about 15-20% less torque is required).

However oil on spark plug threads has been refuted, as it is in a high heat environment, the oil carbonises fairly quickly, and leads to caking on the bottom of the spark plug, which leads to stripping the thread on removal. Your description on how to remove plugs is spot on, but if there IS carbonisation on the plug, there's no way to remove it.

I was lucky enough to have the local bike shop workshop manager round the other night, he's the guy that all the fast riders go to. He was adamant that his workshop always uses copperslip on all spark plug threads, and that he never has an issue.

I will repeat that inserting dry (as recommended by Yamaha) will damage the head, but oil is as likely to cause damage.

 

[FinalImpact]

FinalImpact, i really appreciated your views, and agree with MOST of what you have to say.

TownsendsFJR1300 was right in pointing out that the manual specifies dry thread, and also that lubricating in any way affects the torque settings (about 15-20% less torque is required).

However oil on spark plug threads has been refuted, as it is in a high heat environment, the oil carbonises fairly quickly, and leads to caking on the bottom of the spark plug, which leads to stripping the thread on removal. Your description on how to remove plugs is spot on, but if there IS carbonisation on the plug, there's no way to remove it.

I was lucky enough to have the local bike shop workshop manager round the other night, he's the guy that all the fast riders go to. He was adamant that his workshop always uses copperslip on all spark plug threads, and that he never has an issue.

I will repeat that inserting dry (as recommended by Yamaha) will damage the head, but oil is as likely to cause damage.

First off this post is not about being right, its about providing useful non-damaging information.

OK - I hear you. . . and thanks for the complement.
But a drop of oil on the threads is not going to be noticed or cause damage as you imply. I strongly disagree!

The Threads: a figure of 15 to 20% by adding oil???? I think not. But maybe I misunderstood? So you are saying by adding oil we trick our torque wrench into thinking its 20% low and over tighten it???? I'll call you on that one (prove it). If thats the case, adding anything slippery would take us down that road so the products used likely have the same impact.

The Engine: How about adding a teaspoon of oil during the compression test; Section 3 -1 (pg 96 of the owners manual). It will smoke and the CAT may not like this too often, but its not going to hurt anything. It will burn off unless the rings are toast blowing oil to the top end. The other extreme is Excess oil in the cylinder could bend a rod but now we're talking hydrostatic lock which is off topic.

I think the key is, if it seems wrong it probably is. It should go in by hand. IF it doesn't you have an issue. Don't force it, fix the problem or the threads WILL BE TOAST! A drop of oil from the dipstick could help the guy who doesn't have copper stuff, but don't squirt 6oz of oil the plug hole either when a drop on the threads will do.
As said, in most cases we neither clean them or touch them and simply thread the plug back in w/out a hitch.
As said 70% of the readers don't use or own the proper torque wrench so its moot point anyway.

Just my 2 cents. . . And likewise, I think we all bring value here!

 

[abraxas]

http://sw-em.com/anti_seize.htm

I think you misunderstood slightly: there is a difference in torque settings between dry thread and wet thread. In the case of headbolts, the manual specifies 50NM with well oiled threads.

Let me try be graphic, a bolt with a torque spec of 20NM:

1. Dry = 20NM
2. Wet = 23NM (actual torque applied to the threads)

So there IS a difference in torque settings between wet and dry application of approx 10-15%. If you don't take it into account, you stand a chance of overtightening.

WRT oil on threads, i'm not finding any confirmation online of either perspective. Other than some do, others don't. Oil on threads normally i have no issue with, only in the high heat environment of plugs.

peace :rockon: