This thread again... Engine Knocking

[Goodmango]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxfff6x0tuKuQ0JHeWtrakRlclJvRmNPTl9ySjJpV3lVLWxB/edit?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxfff6x0tuKuMWhzNlRUZ2ZlZk52ZUI0VnpXQlQwMlRncWQw/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Goodmango]

Possibly premature fuel ignition? It only happening when your motor is hot also points to this. What octane fuel are you using over there? Make sure your sparks aren't misfiring and maybe try an octane booster. Higher octane is more resistant to premature ignition. You also mentioned getting the CCT replaced. You're sure it was done properly and the timing didn't get disturbed?

Read thisAGCO Automotive Repair Service - Baton Rouge, LA - Detailed Auto Topics - What Is Pinging, Detonation and Pre-ignition

I'm not completely sure about the octane here. (everything in Korea is confusing) but I did try premium last fill up and no improvements. My mechanic put in a new Yamaha CCT I hope he did it right. The sound existed before and after the replacement though...

 

[Goodmango]

Randy, what noise did the loose oil pump chain sound like? Did you save an audio of that?

Goodmango- the oil pump chain runs down attached to the water pump shaft, just back behind the clutch. Could it be coming from that area? There is no adjustment for it, as it wears, it flops around. I thought I heard a deeper, knock at one or two points, is that the noise or is it the lighter ("Baseball cards in the spokes" ) kind of sound?


Probably not related as I relistened to it, also Goodmango, when you changed out the CCT several things:

Did you notice any difference, was that sound there before and obviously after?

Did you happen to check how far out the NEW CCT stuck out from the block when fully extended? (I'm trying to see if your cam chain may be stretched, nw rattling around in the cases).


Below pic is my old KLR, with the CCT fully extended, with the new chain in. You can see how much room it NOW has (had) with the new chain. Before it was almost to the block (as the chain was so stretched and rear guide worn.)

The sound does seem to be coming from that area behind the clutch. Its where the black hose from the radiator runs to. I'm not sure how sure how far the cct extended sorry. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxfff6x0tuKuQ0JHeWtrakRlclJvRmNPTl9ySjJpV3lVLWxB/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Goodmango]

I don't know. It'd have to be WAAAAAAAAAY loose to hear it. Chains are pretty happy when loose as long as they don't skip or hit anything! When too tight they don't circulate lube and the pins snap. I'd say its NOT a chain issue neither the cam or oil pump. Something else!


If i had to guess I'd say its not a rod or the upper end. Also because it does while not under load that removes the bad fuel from the equation. Unless its REAL bad fuel but it doesn't sound like spark knock to me.

It sounds like its behind the engine because the sound is NOT 1:1 with engine speed. Its reduced and lagging behind engine speed and is somewhat load dependent (accel and decel).

So my question is this:
How different is it cold to hot?
What OIL is in it?
Does it get LOTs louder as the load is increased - i.e. like 4th gear at steady state vs other gears. Pick one.
Does engine braking make the same amount of sound as accelerating in gear X?

The sound is completely different from hot to cold. I can't hear at all for the first 5-8 minutes of riding. The oil is elf full synthetic. Can't remember the viscosity but my shop suggested it. I don't notice much of a difference in sound as the load increases. Actually when I'm riding I don't notice it as much as when parked and revving. IT's not loud enough to hear over road noise I guess.

 

[tejkowskit]

If i had to guess I'd say its not a rod or the upper end. Also because it does while not under load that removes the bad fuel from the equation. Unless its REAL bad fuel but it doesn't sound like spark knock to me.

Not necessarily bad fuel or spark knock, but premature fuel ignition due to too low of an octane is what I was getting at. Hot spots in the cylinders may cause premature ignition, and higher octane is more resistant to igniting prematurely. This is my understanding. Not trying to argue as you are much more knowledgeable than me in mechanics. Just trying to throw ideas or there

I'm not completely sure about the octane here. (everything in Korea is confusing) but I did try premium last fill up and no improvements. My mechanic put in a new Yamaha CCT I hope he did it right. The sound existed before and after the replacement though...

It came to mind, and an octane booster just seemed like a cheap/easy way to rule that out.

 

[Goodmango]

Not necessarily bad fuel or spark knock, but premature fuel ignition due to too low of an octane is what I was getting at. Hot spots in the cylinders may cause premature ignition, and higher octane is more resistant to igniting prematurely. This is my understanding. Not trying to argue as you are much more knowledgeable than me in mechanics. Just trying to throw ideas or there


It came to mind, and an octane booster just seemed like a cheap/easy way to rule that out.

I'll give it a shot when I fill up and let you know. Thanks!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Especially with the change in noise from cold to hot (oil thins out some), has your mechanic checked the OIL PRESSURE both hot and cold?

There's an access port on the left side of the engine, might need some adapters but not hard to do.

Low oil pressure would point towards a loose bearing (not good). If pressure is staying inside spec's, likely something more mechanical going south..

The oil pump is just above (actually right behind the water pump) where your mechanic is pointing on the right side. There is a chain from the pump, goes thru a guide and then attaches to the back of the main clutch hub.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

The sound does seem to be coming from that area behind the clutch. Its where the black hose from the radiator runs to. I'm not sure how sure how far the cct extended sorry.

Where the large black radiator hose connects to is the water pump. That pump has a keyed shaft that literally fits into the oil pump (inside the cases). The water pump will just pull out after removing several bolts.

Here's a link for a free owners manual if you don't have one. It has some of this basic (water pump, etc) stuff:

Boneman's FZ6 Site - Mods


Also, the main cam chain is behind the ovalish cover on the right side. Just to the upper RIGHT of the water pump(has the large round, keyed plug in it). The CCT is part #6:

Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2004 FZ6 - FZ600SS CAMSHAFT CHAIN Diagram

 

[Goodmango]

Thanks guys. It's almost 4am Friday night here. I'm going to head over to the shop with this info in the morning. I'll let you know what happens. Thanks!

 

[Goodmango]

I couldn't get the oil pressure checked today but will soon. I swung by a different shop, well versed in Japanese bikes. They think the sound is coming from the "main drive shaft" maybe the translation is off. He think it might have to do with recent hit weather. He said I should try switching to 20w40 instead of the 10w60 that is in it now.
I also spoke to the guy I bought the bike from. He said it's been making the same sound for 2 years...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

10W60 is way too thick. That's thicker than what the air cooled Harleys run..

Yep, Yamaha's max weight for high temps is 20W40.

I don't think I could find that multi-weight here in the states.

I hope your putting in motorcycle specific oil or at least NON-ENERGY conserving oil of the proper weight.

Your engine, overall, seemed very ticky, noisy, than mine, most IMO. Hopefully the correct oil will fix the issue if no damage was done.

BTW, what was the weather change you refer to, much hotter, much colder than usual, or?


Good luck

BTW, being its WATER COOLED and oil/water cooled (oil cooler) its NOT necessary for such a heavy weight oil

 

[Goodmango]

That's the oil the shop used when I bought the bike. I trusted he knew what he was doing.. Sometimes this place drives me crazy! I'll be changing over to 20w40 Monday night, I'll let you know the results.
The recent weather shift was an increase in temperature. Summer comes a lot quicker here than back in Toronto!

 

[ozgurakman]

Hi, I'm in same opinion with Townsend, 10w60 is so thicker. Some 4 cylinder rides using that oil grade in Turkey (climate is between -10 and 33 Celsius mostly over a year) and I don't recommend if your city's climate range is same as here... also if you can buy motul 7100, I think you'll be happy with that oil but I don't know if oil change can stop that clicking sound. Good luck with it

 

[Goodmango]

Rode 20 KM in the pouring rain last night to get to the most respected mechanic in the city. He suspected it an oil problem. We changed it and used proper oil, 20w50 synthetic mix and used Mos2 additive. Nothing changed.
He told me it was probably a main shaft or bearing problem. But probably so small that it wasn't worth taking apart within the year or two I have left in this country. In the meantime I kept the bike running to show him a hot engine. He gave it another listen and then started to think it might be worse then he expected. Maybe we need to do the work sooner and I should cancel my trip.

So, he drained all the new oil out to analyze it. We found absolutely nothing in the oil, so he told me I'd be fine for the trip and to simply keep an ear on it.

I'll do the trip then visit him again when I get back to see if it gets worse.
STRESSFUL!

 

[FinalImpact]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxfff6x0tuKuQ0JHeWtrakRlclJvRmNPTl9ySjJpV3lVLWxB/edit?usp=sharing

Have you placed a wooden dowel up this engine and listened to it yourself? It's very different that what stethoscope shoves into your ear. Try it and report back.

 

[Goodmango]

Have you placed a wooden dowel up this engine and listened to it yourself? It's very different that what stethoscope shoves into your ear. Try it and report back.

Oh really? My mechanic used the stethoscope so I thought that was better. I'll hunt down some wood and run that test and report back asap. May take me a day as real wood dowel isn't that easy to find in Korea haha. Thanks!

 

[Goodmango]

Have you placed a wooden dowel up this engine and listened to it yourself? It's very different that what stethoscope shoves into your ear. Try it and report back.

I finally got myself a piece of wooden dowel. There isn't really any of your usual hardware stores around here as DIY isn't big in Busan. I ended up borrowing the Nanta drum stick from my students music class... Anyway I gave it a test but couldn't differentiate between the different target areas. Everywhere I placed the stick I could equally hear the knocking.

I know have another problem. So I went to the mechanic yesterday and he told me to just ignore the knocking, it should be fine...
Anyway the new issue seems to be famed TPS issue. But the thing is, the TPS recall was only for North American and European bikes. The bikes weren't recalled in the Asian market.
Here are the symptoms: Every now and then (becoming more frequent) the idle will drop from it's usual 1260-1320 way down to 800-1000, once as low as 600-700. And it just isn't feeling the same. But when I run the Diagnostic test the numbers seem ok 15-100...
My mechanic checked the error codes and said there was one for TPS and one for the crank shaft sensor or pulse coil...
He cleared the errors and told me to come back a day or two later to recheck the codes.
I guess I should start a new thread for this problem but figured I'd post it here for now...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Loose cam chain rubbing up against the PU sensor like "Vegas's" bike??? (I believe it was his bike)


How many miles on your bike?

 

[Goodmango]

Loose cam chain rubbing up against the PU sensor like "Vegas's" bike??? (I believe it was his bike)


How many miles on your bike?

Just over 20,000km so about 12,500 miles...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Just over 20,000km so about 12,500 miles...

Thats not much. Vegas bike was way up there mileage wise. His cam chain sawed its way thru the PU sensor...

With that PU error code, thought it might be related to each other..