Triples, Twins, That's All

[thisisbenji]

It would appear that this wind thing has already been worked out.

I personally have a Puig on my FZ6N (conversion), and it protects every bit as much as the half fairing did.

 

[dschult2]

It would appear that this wind thing has already been worked out.

Yes I know the FZ 09 has aftermarket windscreens but it is my opinion that any windscreen large enough to offer significant wind protection looks out of place without at least some fairings.

 

[thisisbenji]

Yes I know the FZ 09 has aftermarket windscreens but it is my opinion that any windscreen large enough to offer significant wind protection looks out of place without at least some fairings.

To each his own, but I think the first one I posted looks rather good.

Not to mention cruiser guys have been throwing huge clear windscreens on for years.

I supposed we're coming from two different camps. I love the look of a naked and HATE the look of fairings.

 

[2old2ride]

The engine in the fz6 itself sacrificed horsepower for torque, presumably to make the bike more rideable.

My assumption is that engines have been trending towards more torque and less horsepower for some time. If you aren't on a racetrack, torque more or less beats horsepower, especially since power to weight ratios on motorcycles are already astronomical compared to cars.

I'm not sure how I feel about it per se, but it seems to make a lot of sense to do away with engines optimized for top end power when your application is not racing.

Edit: I should add that I am assuming that triples and twins are better optimized for torque, with lower horsepower. Engines like on the fz-09 develop similar horsepower numbers but obviously have a 300 cc bump in displacement.

Double Edit: I should also add that a recent thread revealed that our bikes are capable of 100+ mph speeds in something like third gear; So basically no one redlines above third gear on the street. That kind of horsepower just isn't useful off the race track.

Honda research determined that only 10% of their RR series ever see a track. Other brands are about the same. So either a LOT of peeps are street racing or there are way more posers out there then is good.
If you know how to finesse traffic, then the FZ6 has the ideal powerband. 4 to 8 KRPM is quicker then most cars and all econo boxes. If you need more, down shift and twist your wrist.
Most riders are lazy and ride around town in 5th or 6th gear. That means you are basically just off idle. I ride around town in 2nd gear mostly. That works out to 4 to 5 K with stock teeth on my sprockets. From there I can crash down to first, which lifts the tach. A little wrist and I'm back in second and gone. Ride the tach at 4 to 5 in traffic and 10+ when playing. Use the gear box to determine how fast you are going.
Twins and triples are cheaper to build, which means a lower list price and greater profit. That is what is driving the switch.

 

[thisisbenji]

Honda research determined that only 10% of their RR series ever see a track. Other brands are about the same. So either a LOT of peeps are street racing or there are way more posers out there then is good.
If you know how to finesse traffic, then the FZ6 has the ideal powerband. 4 to 8 KRPM is quicker then most cars and all econo boxes. If you need more, down shift and twist your wrist.
Most riders are lazy and ride around town in 5th or 6th gear. That means you are basically just off idle. I ride around town in 2nd gear mostly. That works out to 4 to 5 K with stock teeth on my sprockets. From there I can crash down to first, which lifts the tach. A little wrist and I'm back in second and gone. Ride the tach at 4 to 5 in traffic and 10+ when playing. Use the gear box to determine how fast you are going.
Twins and triples are cheaper to build, which means a lower list price and greater profit. That is what is driving the switch.

I agree on what you said, but go ride a FZ09 and your opinion will change. I guarantee it.

Btw, I'd say 10% is a pretty good number. Considering the amount of bikes that even see road miles is probably low judging by the mileage of supersports on craigslist. I'm still baffled at how a 6 year old bike only has 3,000 miles, I put twice that much on mine each year.

 

[FZ09Bandit]

Honda research determined that only 10% of their RR series ever see a track. Other brands are about the same. So either a LOT of peeps are street racing or there are way more posers out there then is good.
If you know how to finesse traffic, then the FZ6 has the ideal powerband. 4 to 8 KRPM is quicker then most cars and all econo boxes. If you need more, down shift and twist your wrist.
Most riders are lazy and ride around town in 5th or 6th gear. That means you are basically just off idle. I ride around town in 2nd gear mostly. That works out to 4 to 5 K with stock teeth on my sprockets. From there I can crash down to first, which lifts the tach. A little wrist and I'm back in second and gone. Ride the tach at 4 to 5 in traffic and 10+ when playing. Use the gear box to determine how fast you are going.
Twins and triples are cheaper to build, which means a lower list price and greater profit. That is what is driving the switch.

Yep, and my 850 triple cost exactly the same as the fz6 brand new. So they are making money but that's irrelavent because the 9 has more than a triple that cost a considerable Amount more.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

I agree on what you said, but go ride a FZ09 and your opinion will change. I guarantee it.

Btw, I'd say 10% is a pretty good number. Considering the amount of bikes that even see road miles is probably low judging by the mileage of supersports on craigslist. I'm still baffled at how a 6 year old bike only has 3,000 miles, I put twice that much on mine each year.

I think part of the problem is that we don't have any triples of the same displacement as the I4's we're talking about.

I think it's pretty obvious that the FZ09 will feel peppier and have much more torque than the I4 of the FZ6. It's got an extra 300cc of raw displacement to make up for the lack of power on the high end, and the larger bore lends itself to having much more torque.

From my quick Google-fu, I found that the stock '01 FZ1 makes 121 HP and 70 ft/lb using 998cc. Compared to the FZ09 which makes 115 HP and 65ft/lb using 847cc.

Pound for pound, the triple definitely wins out. But believe it or not, the FZ1 hits the maximum values at a lower RPM than the 09. I think it's safe to say that for people who want the character of an inline 4 cylinder, then they really aren't sacrificing much over a larger bore, lower cylinder motor.

I understand that these are maximum values and the real difference will show up when looking at the power and torque curves. But at the same time, I don't necessarily see the issue with using the I4 over the I3.

Weight is definitely a factor, and width probably pokes its head in the argument as well. But the FZ6 is my first bike, and I don't feel overwhelmed by the weight or the width at all. I think after riding a few years, I could transition pretty comfortably to a larger bike, even if it was a 1000cc I4.

Ps. That black FZ09 you posted above is freakin' gorgeous. I'm not a big fan of the naked look, but that looks very nice!

 

[Motogiro]

Another thing to keep in mind with the triple is you're firing at 120 deg intervals where the I4 (unless it is a crossplane crank) is firing at 180 deg intervals. There's more torque because of that closer interval inherent in the I3 design. I3 is a great idea! :rockon:

 

[iviyth0s]

I won't weigh in since I've only ridden a parallel twin (Ninja 250, a V4 (1985 VFR700) and an I4 (FZ6) so I haven't ever ridden a larger displacement twin or triple but I'm really interested to do so.

 

[thisisbenji]

Weight is definitely a factor, and width probably pokes its head in the argument as well. But the FZ6 is my first bike, and I don't feel overwhelmed by the weight or the width at all. I think after riding a few years, I could transition pretty comfortably to a larger bike, even if it was a 1000cc I4.
!

I rode the FZ09 and FZ6 back to back two weeks ago. I have to say the FZ6 felt like an absolute tank after riding the FZ09. Although it's back to feeling small now. There's something to be said about the narrow engine layouts of a twin or triple, but once again it's personal. If your a bigger guy it might not make a big difference. At 5'6" it made a HUGE difference to me, although the width of an I4 does make hard braking easier.

 

[Carlos840]

I rode the FZ09 and FZ6 back to back two weeks ago. I have to say the FZ6 felt like an absolute tank after riding the FZ09. Although it's back to feeling small now. There's something to be said about the narrow engine layouts of a twin or triple, but once again it's personal. If your a bigger guy it might not make a big difference. At 5'6" it made a HUGE difference to me, although the width of an I4 does make hard braking easier.

Does the FZ09 feel that much faster than the FZ6 if you keep the 6 in the 10000rpm up range?

 

[FZ09Bandit]

Yeah, it does. And I can change course with a tiny bit of movement.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

I rode the FZ09 and FZ6 back to back two weeks ago. I have to say the FZ6 felt like an absolute tank after riding the FZ09. Although it's back to feeling small now. There's something to be said about the narrow engine layouts of a twin or triple, but once again it's personal. If your a bigger guy it might not make a big difference. At 5'6" it made a HUGE difference to me, although the width of an I4 does make hard braking easier.

I'm over 6 foot tall, so the FZ6 seems plenty comfortable to me. I agree that it definitely makes sense for smaller riders to prefer the narrow engine types.

 

[FinalImpact]

Another thing to keep in mind with the triple is you're firing at 120 deg intervals where the I4 (unless it is a crossplane crank) is firing at 180 deg intervals. There's more torque because of that closer interval inherent in the I3 design. I3 is a great idea! :rockon:

+5 ^^

I was really surprised no one mentioned this yet (120° firing intervals). Its way smoother in its power deliver too. Granted our I4's don't run a balance shaft but allot of I4 (cages too) run a balance shaft to reduce harmonics of the power plant shaking the frame.

Who here has ridden the CrossPlane I4? I rode an R1 and was very surprised at how it simply made a different vibration. I really thought it would be smoother but its not. Its power delivery is great but its far from vibration free.

Keep in mind that vibration is lost power and efficiency. The triples are here to stay...

CrossPlane vid... try to get past the first few seconds. And yes, these run a balance shaft too. Then again, so does the 09 triple!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEXUrO5wYcE"]Yamaha YZF R1 crossplane crankshaft technology explained - YouTube[/ame]

 

[FinalImpact]

Does the FZ09 feel that much faster than the FZ6 if you keep the 6 in the 10000rpm up range?

^^ Find a way to hop on an 09. I don't see you being disappointed it. It revs and it makes torquies.... I miss the torque factor from the 6, hence why it spends much of its life above 8K when ah - "playing" which is its primary purpose! :thumbup:

Up top you mention the "tractor motor" and how its not your thing. Same Same. I don't care for it either. I mean big jugs are great but I don't like the sound or the feel or the reduced rev limit (yes, talking about bikes).

 

[scidork]

Shouldn't an I4 fire more frequently and deliver power more consistently than a triple? I'm missing something but in a 4 stroke, any piston has to revolve twice, the first time to fire, the second to exhaust and recharge. Therefore with a 4 cylinder, wouldn't the firing interval be 360 x 2 / 4 + 180 deg. as above but a triple would be 360 x 2 / 3 = 240 deg. or does this perhaps have to do with the cross plane shaft? I guess I just took it for granted that regardless of the cylinder layout (I, V, boxer, etc.) the engineers would configure the motor to fire as I described to smoothest power delivery.

 

[FZ09Bandit]

Shouldn't an I4 fire more frequently and deliver power more consistently than a triple? I'm missing something but in a 4 stroke, any piston has to revolve twice, the first time to fire, the second to exhaust and recharge. Therefore with a 4 cylinder, wouldn't the firing interval be 360 x 2 / 4 + 180 deg. as above but a triple would be 360 x 2 / 3 = 240 deg. or does this perhaps have to do with the cross plane shaft? I guess I just took it for granted that regardless of the cylinder layout (I, V, boxer, etc.) the engineers would configure the motor to fire as I described to smoothest power delivery.

Kinda sorta, you also have to take the size of the actuall pistons into account.

A 600 i4 and a 600 triple walk into a bar, which motor actually moves more volume?

 

[Carlos840]

^^ Find a way to hop on an 09. I don't see you being disappointed it. It revs and it makes torquies.... I miss the torque factor from the 6, hence why it spends much of its life above 8K when ah - "playing" which is its primary purpose! :thumbup:

Up top you mention the "tractor motor" and how its not your thing. Same Same. I don't care for it either. I mean big jugs are great but I don't like the sound or the feel or the reduced rev limit (yes, talking about bikes).

Yeah, to be honest i am a bit scared of trying one, after all the time, money and effort i put into modding my bike i would hate to sit on a bike that would make me want to buy it!

My problem with the twins is exactly the same as yours, i love having a 14000rpm range and being able to pull that high, and was very frustrated by the 6000rpm redline of the twin (it was a BMW 1200GS). Now, i would love to try a high revving twin, like the KTM super duke or something ridiculous like that!

 

[FZ09Bandit]

09 is 11k. Redline in 3rd is 108mph indicated

 

[FZSexy]

don't have time to thank everyone for posting in this fine thread, but i will get around to it

man, i thought when i got this bike i had one of the quickest bikes on the road. and OK, i do! its fast

but how dare Yammy abandon me at the beginning of my riding career! i found these numbers for the triple. how can this be true? these are near liter bike numbers, quicker then a current gen r6 or a previous gen r6. it's 8/10th of a sec faster to 60mph then the FZ6 if these numbers are correct

how can Yamaha put THIS triple in such an....interesting looking bike? at least give us something that LOOKS half fast!

2014 Yamaha FZ-09 - 0-60 mph 2.7 - Quarter Mile 10.6