Convo with 2 bros about why my exhaust is turning yellow

[YamahaMAXdRPMs]

Had a nice little convo with two brothers last night. Background story is my cans were starting to turn yellow, i purchased them last year on Feb 20th. (receipt verified) So you figure after a week or so to ship, then another few days to install, i have had them on less than one year, Take off that the bike has not touched pavement in the last 2 months, I hardly rode them at all. I would say, without looking at the ODO, 2K miles all year. I have had the bike for 2 years, the first year i did close to 8k, and i KNOW im under 10,000 now for sure. So 2k give or take a few. The straps that i have on there have started to dry rot, the screws have turned silver, and the exhaust is turning yellow.

The screws i just took off and painted with a high heat black. The rubber straps I just paid 2bros $10 to ship new ones last week... the exhaust is the last straw.

Anyway, the phone system wasnt working, so i had to talk to him online. Now i realize what a warranty is. And i realize im out of their 90 warranty, but come on. you pay THAT much for an exhaust only for it to go bad THAT quick and get "oh well, we can take a look at it, and charge you" in return?

Anyways, i may have been wrong to get annoyed with him... but here is the convo, you decided, was i outta line?? Or am i kinda justified to be annoyed?

I just think customer service is lacking more and more these days.


Welcome jay! Your request has been directed to the Customer Service department. Please wait for our operator to answer your call.
Call accepted by operator Customer Support. Currently in room: Customer Support, jay.
Customer Support:


Jay:
phone system not working, trying to figure out why cans are yellow already

Welcome jay! Your request has been directed to the Customer Service department. Please wait for our operator to answer your call.
Call accepted by operator Customer Support.
Currently in room : Customer Support, jay.

Customer Support Hi, Jay, one moment...

**5min later

jay:.... ok

**5min after that

jay:still there?

Customer Support:how many miles do you have on them?

jay:2,000 if that

Customer Support:what finish is the canister?

jay:carbon fiber

Customer Support:what bike do you have?

jay:non-track bike

jay:FZ6

Customer Support:do you have a receipt?

jay:yes

jay:Biohazard Cycles

Customer Support:if you would like you can mail in the canisters, with receipt, and we will inspect the packing

Customer Support:if the packing is still good and the cans turned yellow we will take care of it

Customer Support:if it is within the warranty period

Customer Support:if the packing is completely burnt out

Customer Support:then it would be a maintenance issue and we can give you a quote to repair the damage

jay:it was purchased feb 20, 2009, but not installed till atleast march, and not on the road till atleast late april

Customer Support:well it is definitely out of the warranty period

Customer Support:but if you send it in we can inspect the packing

Customer Support:and if it's brand new and the rivets show it's never been repacked

Customer Support:then we can work with you on it

Customer Support:what have you been using to clean the sleeves?

jay:yeah, never been repacked, i figured it would last longer than 2k miles, i didnt open it at all till this winter to paint the gold rim black, when i noticed how bad it was

Customer Support:well if you want to send it in we can take a look at it

jay:here is the thing, i really dont want to spend $15 to ship em, only to figure out that they are not covered and will cost $100 to fix, and then have to wait a month in between, not saying 2 bros would do that, but i have had those experiences

jay:so im a little worried about doing that

jay: plus the fact that im a little annoyed that with less than a year on them, less than 2k miles, and zero rain riding, they are already yellow

jay:i figured they would last alot longer than that, i know of others on forums with the same bike having the cans last 10,000 miles before repack no problem

Customer Support:if it ends up not being covered the cost to resleeve and repack a dual system would be $450.

Customer Support:they are $160/sleeve and $65/can to repack

jay:yeah, thats ridiculous

jay:they only cost $679, so for another 200 i could get a whole new system

Customer Support:they retail for $1k

jay:my point is, why are they turning yellow that fast

Customer Support:I would need to inspect your canisters to be able to accurately answer that question

jay:i realize, but is there something i can do so i dont go a 1 month limbo with no exhaust and an unridable bike? cant i just snap a few pics and you can SOMEWHAT judge from there if i should even send them?

Customer Support:I trust that they have yellowed from what you are telling me, what I need to do is open the system up and inspect the packing on the inside

Customer Support:along with the midpipes

Customer Support:to see how lean your bike may be running

jay:so you need the midpipes as well?

Customer Support:those I could just look at pictures

jay:i have the cans off now, i planned on putting the bike back together tomorrow, but i can take the cover off and snap a picture of the packing before i do that.

Customer Support:I would have to take the packing all out

Customer Support:and inspect all of it

jay: ok, i can send it to you, but you have to understand my problem here, im a little annoyed that they are going bad, i REALLY dont want the bike sitting in pieces for 3 weeks while i wait to hear back that there is nothing that can be done

jay:i mean whats the usual turn around time

Customer Support: one moment

Customer Support:it may take up to 2 weeks

Customer Support:either way the best I can do is work with you on the price of replacing the sleeves

Customer Support:due to the purchase date being a year it is out of warranty

jay:im not trying to be a jerk or anything, its just frustrating to spend that much, have problems i shouldnt be having, then have to be inconvenienced by taking everything apart and mailing them, waiting, then possibly not having a solution anyway

Customer Support:I apologize but the items are out of warranty

Customer Support:I am willing to work with you on the price once I see them

Customer Support:but I won't know what that is until I see the sleeves

Customer Support:and the packing

jay:i realize, and i appreciate you working with me, my problem is there shouldnt be a price, its been a year, and its an FZ6, not a R1 or any track bike. and i just though with a item thats supposta last a while, a years riding wouldnt kill it already

Customer Support:the only way there wouldn't be a price is if it was under warranty

jay:to be honest with ya, ill live with it, if it gets bad, ill buy someone elses exhaust next time. Kinda BS. I love the exhaust, but the craftsmanship is horrible, all the screws that hold it together have lost their gold, and are now silver, i could live with that, painted them black, the rubber straps started to dry rot, i lived with that and ordered more, but for the cans to turn yellow this fast is bs

Customer Support:everything you're describing indicates a very hot engine

jay:and how could my bike be any hotter than anyone elses who has the same bike

jay:i have a air filter, that is it.

Customer Support:we run these exhausts on race bikes

Customer Support:and the gold bolts stay gold

Customer Support:and the rubber does not break

Customer Support:but you're saying all those along with your carbon fiber has turned yellow

jay:every bolt was silver, i just had to repaint them all black last week, and like i said, both rubber straps were ripped, i just ordered more last week.

jay:and my bike hardly ever gets over 205, only when stopped

jay:im not arguing, im just saying, you tell me. why would mine be hotter than anyone elses with only an air filter?

Customer Support:I don't know why it's running hotter, there could be a lot of factors that affect that

Customer Support:but I'm thinking it's running hotter because you're stating all this happened in 2000 miles

Customer Support:I would really have to inspect it, I need to see if you got a bad batch of carbon fiber, bad batch of rubber and bad batch of anodizing all in one kit.

jay:lol, i see the sarcasm there. its fine, it is what it is. ill keep what i have. but next time ill get a different brand for sure, and ill let some other guys know that they gotta watch our FZ6's... they are some hot bikes

Customer Support:I only think they would be bad batches because of the 2000 miles

jay:i can make copies of my records, oil changes and mileage and such, if that will help out.

jay:it is what it is. you got your money. i got my answer. Thanks for your help



here is a pic of the screws, i happened to have a perfect tail end shot of them during a "before 2010 project" pics. I will try to get a pic of the cans today while im over my buddies working on the bike.

 

[reiobard]

honestly, it sounds like he wanted to help, but his hands are tied unless actually inspecting the cans. it will take time to ship it and have them look at them, but it sounds like you would only be on the hook for shipping to then so that they could take a look at them. do you still have your stock exhaust? I would put that back on and send it back to them to have a look at the cans.

worst case is that you tell them to not fix anything that they are not going to take care of for you.

 

[wely324]

I love how he says the exhaust could be from a bad batch, but at the same time they won't warranty the product. Basically he is saying it could be two brothers fault that it is yellowing and its poor craftmanship and that they have a ****ty warranty. If somethign like that can happen within a year it should definitley be covered under warranty, especially as how popular a exhaust company they are. They should want to keep their customers happy.

 

[cyprusgrump]

I think it sucks...

Surely your engine would need to be on fire to damage them if they really are suitable for race bikes? Your valves would be dust!

I would have hoped the guy would be aghast that something like this could happen in such a short time and (warranty or not) would have wanted them back for a look-see ASAP.

 

[racebrooks]

This is a "customer service guy" you're talking to? Start climbing the ladder. Find out who his boss is, then his boss's boss..you get the idea. Even better, find the CEO or Pres or Owner, and send him a direct letter. Alot of the big shots are "aghast" at a problem and will over ride the lower level guys. Especially if they, "the big shot" find out it is all over the forum. You will find out what the company is made of if the "the big shot" blows you off.

Keep us updated. I have the TB cans also.

 

[zigzagg321]

This is a "customer service guy" you're talking to? Start climbing the ladder. Find out who his boss is, then his boss's boss..you get the idea. Even better, find the CEO or Pres or Owner, and send him a direct letter. Alot of the big shots are "aghast" at a problem and will over ride the lower level guys. Especially if they, "the big shot" find out it is all over the forum. You will find out what the company is made of if the "the big shot" blows you off.

Keep us updated. I have the TB cans also.

Agreed. This is the best course of action. I for one was saving my pennies for a TB system. Just based on your experience thus far Jay, I wont be buying from TB until I know the outcome of your situation.

 

[RJ2112]

How many 600cc sport bikes had cats in the pipes, before the Euro 3 standards became mandatory? How many sport bike models in production now, have cats in their pipes? This is a good question to 'bump up' to the broader sport bike forums.... numbers will tell the tale.

The only thing I could add to this would be that the Catalytic converter heats the exhaust gases quite a bit, compared to a system without the cat less than a meter 'ahead' of the cans. There's a chance TB is not aware of the temp difference, compared to other designs. 'Does it fit?' And 'Should it be used?' in a particular application are definitely TB's concerns..... if they stand on their 90 day warranty for workmanship, they'll definitely suffer for that.

I honestly don't know enough about carbon fiber and the resins used to bond it together to know how heat sensitive they are..... the straps, and bolts I would want to compare against our members with the metal cans from 2 Brothers to see if they are showing similar issues. If it all comes down to your bike only, then it's more likely an unusual state of tune, like this guy was trying to say...... if all the FZ6's with TB cans on them show similar issues, that's p*ss poor design on their part.

TB is in CA; they should be testing their products on CA versions of motorcycles -- there's no excuse for not being aware of the lean/hot exhaust gases coming from OEM systems. (This assumes they actually tested the form fit and function of their product on an FZ6 at all. And then assumes they did an extended life test of some sort to ensure the product would last.)

Is the silencer part of the emissions system? I'd guess no. DOT regs are pretty strict concerning warranty on emissions systems -- they go for a lot longer than most mfg warranties.

 

[(none)]

How about some actual close up pictures of what you are talking about? SS can turn yellow with heat and use, doesn't have to take long. CF also turns yellow and more brittle with heat. All of this is known and should be expected. If you want an exhaust that will last and require no maintenance, stick with stock.

 

[zigzagg321]

How about some actual close up pictures of what you are talking about? SS can turn yellow with heat and use, doesn't have to take long. CF also turns yellow and more brittle with heat. All of this is known and should be expected. If you want an exhaust that will last and require no maintenance, stick with stock.

I dunno man, I wouldnt expect a $900 exhaust to do any of that in 2k miles.

 

[RJ2112]

"Mods:
Power:
Two Brothers Juice Box - K&N Air Filter w/ modded airbox - 15T JT Sprocket - Two Brothers Carbon Cans "

It's difficult to claim this bike is OEM with the exception of the carbon cans.......

It's hard to say where this bike is falling on the rich/lean scale. If the bike has a TB juice box, and a TB pipe, and a modified air box, and an after market filter........ it needs to be run across an exhaust gas analyzer to see where it's at. This does not sound like an OEM setup anymore. Could very well be running lean, and producing the excessive heat TB is talking about.

I understood the beauty of the Juice box to be that you could not make the fuel air ratio any more lean than OEM..... it's more difficult to fry your engine compared to a PCIII/V set up.

If the OEM airbox, filter, and exhaust were all in place, that would probably be true. TB surely has to expect that someone who bought their Juice box, and their pipe, would be using them together. Opening the airbox up, and using a higher flow filter would increase airflow (obviously) especially with the low restriction can..... is the Juice Box capable of preventing the owner from making that set up overly lean? A question I would want to have TB answer.....

 

[Red Wazp]

How about some pics?

 

[Gilo-FZ6]

these are my MIVV's after 200 miles ..the cat has got a lot to answer for..i dont think exhaust manufacturers are giving the FZ6 configuration enough thought

Im not mad at MIVV..but i guess its users like me that should give them feedback of whats happening to their products in the real world

luckilly its only the exit tube that discoloured, and the Cat is now removed ..the cans run sooo much cooler

 

[Motogiro]

I know I read some where that TB would void warranty on CF cans that were on a bike that was dyno'd. I read this about 2 years ago when I was deciding what cans I wanted. In addition that CF was more expensive I decided to get aluminum cans.
I am again getting new cans for a new bike. This time I'm getting the Titanium TB cans. I decided against carbon fiber after I read of their heat sensitivity in comparison to other alloys and that they could experience,"Burn out" on a dyno because of extra temperatures experienced at dyno time. I know you might be saying,"Well they use them on race bikes!" Do they tune them with CF cans, and if they yellow after tuning the race bike, do they go back to the can company and say hey!? They probably don't and realize this is the character of CF cans, they are light weight and most people will never notice the yellowing at that close to 200 MPH checkered flag.

Also there is a link here on our forum I believe is worth reading. It leads me to believe this might be an expected characteristic of carbon fiber.

http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-mods/5293-why-my-carbon-fiber-pipes-turning-yellow.html

Have fun out there!

 

[jtarkany]

I think you have every right to be annoyed about the exhaust turning yellow, as well as the 2 bros policy regarding helping you.

However, it seems like the actual customer service person you spoke with did what they could within their ability to help you.

You might want to consider ordering your own Carbon Fiber sleeves - 36" of Hi-Temp, Oval, Carbon Fiber for $90 with shipping at Carbon Fiber Tubing and replacing them, as well as a new repacking kit from 2 bros, it would be a lot cheaper and you could still ride the bike until the materials arrive.

 

[Motogiro]

I think you have every right to be annoyed about the exhaust turning yellow, as well as the 2 bros policy regarding helping you.

However, it seems like the actual customer service person you spoke with did what they could within their ability to help you.

You might want to consider ordering your own Carbon Fiber sleeves - 36" of Hi-Temp, Oval, Carbon Fiber for $90 with shipping at Carbon Fiber Tubing and replacing them, as well as a new repacking kit from 2 bros, it would be a lot cheaper and you could still ride the bike until the materials arrive.

And take take it from this guy. He knows a little about CF exhaust. http://www.600riders.com/forum/how-tos/23149-how-make-your-own-exhaust-slip-ons.html
I'm still blown away at what Jtarkany did on this project!!:rockon:

 

[reiobard]

I would have hoped the guy would be aghast that something like this could happen in such a short time and (warranty or not) would have wanted them back for a look-see ASAP.

the whole conversation was the customer service guy asking for the cans to come back so that they could look them over...



you have to think that these companies deal with yahoos all day that beat the snot out of their bikes, add nitrous, do brake stands, ride 100 mile per hour wheelies in 2nd gear, and do so after cutting their exhausts and taking all the packing out of them to make them sound cooler and making them "shortie" cans.

I don't blame him one bit for being suspicious and needing to take a look at them before committing to a repair or replace. can you imagine how much his a$$ would be on the line if he said "yeah, we will take care of them for you free of charge" and you send them in and it turns out that your bike was in a house fire or something...

he can't out and out accuse you of abusing anything, so they need to cover themselves and take a look at the problems before promising a free fix.

 

[08fz6]

Im not saying you are wrong, but you must have never had to deal with the public..... numerous people in this world are just looking for free hand outs... Customer service is a very crappy job that does not pay overly well. Carbon fiber will also yellow if left out in the hot sun! I think you should have also left out the numerous times you mention you are getting annoyed... Friendliness will get you a long way.....

 

[08fz6]

these are my MIVV's after 200 miles ..the cat has got a lot to answer for..i dont think exhaust manufacturers are giving the FZ6 configuration enough thought

Im not mad at MIVV..but i guess its users like me that should give them feedback of whats happening to their products in the real world

luckilly its only the exit tube that discoloured, and the Cat is now removed ..the cans run sooo much cooler

some nice metal polish will take care of that!

 

[YamahaMAXdRPMs]

"Mods:
Power:
Two Brothers Juice Box - K&N Air Filter w/ modded airbox - 15T JT Sprocket - Two Brothers Carbon Cans "

It's difficult to claim this bike is OEM with the exception of the carbon cans.......

It's hard to say where this bike is falling on the rich/lean scale. If the bike has a TB juice box, and a TB pipe, and a modified air box, and an after market filter........ it needs to be run across an exhaust gas analyzer to see where it's at. This does not sound like an OEM setup anymore. Could very well be running lean, and producing the excessive heat TB is talking about.

I understood the beauty of the Juice box to be that you could not make the fuel air ratio any more lean than OEM..... it's more difficult to fry your engine compared to a PCIII/V set up.

If the OEM airbox, filter, and exhaust were all in place, that would probably be true. TB surely has to expect that someone who bought their Juice box, and their pipe, would be using them together. Opening the airbox up, and using a higher flow filter would increase airflow (obviously) especially with the low restriction can..... is the Juice Box capable of preventing the owner from making that set up overly lean? A question I would want to have TB answer.....

The juice box was removed about a month after i put the cans off... dumb me just never took it off the signature, i think i sold it to someone on the site actually (may of last year? i got teh cans on late march/ early april)
Im sure the sprocket wont make a lick of difference on engine temp, and by "modded airbox" i mean i cut the snorkel out... if ANYTHING it makes it cooler. and it was stated that i have a air filter... im not running turbos and NOS here... its not a superbike, its a damn FZ6 with a slightly opened up airbox.....


and 08fz6, the nice kind words were all used up when i tried to explain to them that my rubber piece had dry rot and ripped... last week... hehehe

Thanks for your replies all... i took some pics today, ill have to try to put them up. I did swap the cans today, so hopefully the yellow will even out a little now.

 

[RJ2112]

Thanks for understanding that I'm not trying to pick on you about this.... merely trying to cover all the bases, to find out why it happened.

I take it you are suffering the same sort of deal as the person with the MIVV cans? the right side can is suffering/discoloring more than the left?