Hacked a 2 wire LED "Ebay Cheepo" into a 3 Wire LED "Ebay Cheepo"

[sxty8goats]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e4Esyxujtg]YouTube - MVI_1360.MOV[/ame]

Video shows it in action. Not really happy with the light output but it was cheep for the experiment. Using a Custom LED relay to control the flash rate.

You can see a normal bulb type flasher on the left for comparison.

The LED is one of those advertised as a 14 LED signal. It has 14 LED's in 4 groups. I simply lifted the resistor for the middle group of 5 LEDs and attached the third lead to that. Wired up as"

Signal to Bike
Yellow to Black/white
Red to Black
Black to Red

Red to Black is the running light and the wire I hacked in.. Yellow is the positive lead in on the LED. It runs to a diode on the LED which then distributes the current to 4 resistors. These lead to 3 or 4 LEDs each. I pulled the middle resistor and soldered the read lead directly to this resistor. It no longer had the polarity protection of the diode.

I'm going to go take it out now and put the bulb signal back

 

[Chaosratt]

Common mod I see for POD lights would work here too.
NOt sure of the exact wiring, so dont quote me on this!
Connect the power to the normal 12v+ on source, then connect the ground to the blinker wire.
Causes the light to stay on like a running light, but blink totally off/on when the turn signal activates, rather than the high/low that even purpos built 3-way LEDs seem to have such problems with.

 

[sxty8goats]

Common mod I see for POD lights would work here too.
NOt sure of the exact wiring, so dont quote me on this!
Connect the power to the normal 12v+ on source, then connect the ground to the blinker wire.
Causes the light to stay on like a running light, but blink totally off/on when the turn signal activates, rather than the high/low that even purpos built 3-way LEDs seem to have such problems with.

I don't see how that could leave a lite lit but then flash it Unless the flasher relay cuts the ground instead of power... As it sits now it would be a normally open switch which allows ground when activated. But that wouldn't allow full on.

You may be thinkning of the 'Magic Blinker" add on that comes from CustomLED. It allows 2 wire config to run as a three wire. Essentially using a normally closed relay on the two wire circuit and using the blinker signal to open the relay, turning off the light. (I think)

 

[Chaosratt]

I can personally confirm this works. I cant be 100% sure of the polarity because the LED light I use was not labeled, but connecting the LED to from the running light to the turn signal causes the LED to go ON like normal, and turns OFF for the turn signal (opposite the normal signal).

 

[dean owens]

that's what i did for my pods. but my blinkers are still hooked up. never heard of someone wiring just blinkers that way. interesting.

 

[Motogiro]

I can personally confirm this works. I cant be 100% sure of the polarity because the LED light I use was not labeled, but connecting the LED to from the running light to the turn signal causes the LED to go ON like normal, and turns OFF for the turn signal (opposite the normal signal).

I think what you're saying is that you hook the positive running light signal to the positive side of the LED and the turn signal positive to the LED ground.

When there is no turn signal, the turn signal positive goes to ground potential and the LED lights with the running light voltage. When the turn signal is present the voltage that was at ground potential, on the negative LED, leg goes to the same potential as the running light, which then turns the light off because no/or little current flows(equal potential on each side of the LED) during the flasher on signal.
This type of setup would would only work with that type of switching which I don't think is very common if at all. I wouldn't recommend trying this configuration unless you know for sure your circuit behaves that way and you have a decent understanding of how to test and wire this.
I would think that most of our flasher signals are the nominal 12 volt on, when signal is present, and then open circuit or floating which would provide no path for current.

 

[Chaosratt]

Strange that everyone seems opposed to this idea, since it is what I read everyone on this forum does when the run POD lights and normal blinkers at the same time. What difference is it if its an LED pod light wired that way, or just normal 2-wire LED lights?

Frankly, I don't even have the normal blinkers installed anymore, just the POD lights wired for turn signals. I was thinking of doing this exact modification of the wireing for them to make them running lights + blinkers.

 

[sxty8goats]

For what it is worth, I expected a comon ground and two signal wires. That isn't what I found with a meter. Maybe I was tired but I was unable to isolate two distinct circuts from the three wires. It was trial and error to get the wire patern I used. I hesitate to say correct, it just worked. I assumed that how ever it was wired, it was designed to continue to provide running lights/flashers if one filliment of the bulb burned out.

 

[Motogiro]

Strange that everyone seems opposed to this idea, since it is what I read everyone on this forum does when the run POD lights and normal blinkers at the same time. What difference is it if its an LED pod light wired that way, or just normal 2-wire LED lights?

Frankly, I don't even have the normal blinkers installed anymore, just the POD lights wired for turn signals. I was thinking of doing this exact modification of the wireing for them to make them running lights + blinkers.

I'm not opposed to it. I don't think it's strange. I would just like to know how it works. If I understand how it works I have a better understanding of how it might effect other circuits and future changes back to stock or additional electrical mods. Personally I like the fact that you've brought this circuit to light (pun?) haha!

This is a good thread and I like when people have the curiosity and courage to probe,experiment, dream and execute these mods.
But!
Here's a possible scenario that might be avoided if we have better understanding. Suppose this circuit operates flawlessly with LED's. now someone adds an incandescent lamp to work the same way. There is a transistorized switch controlling the ground path from ground to high or 12volt nominal voltage. Is that solid state switching ample enough to carry the current from an incandescent lamp? Is that directional signal in the rear discrete from the front lamps? So there could be an effect on other functions if there is a change in related circuits.
Keep in mind that if this was a good way to provide a directional and integrated directional signal I would think the manufacturer would do this with the incandescent running/directionals in the front but instead they go through the expense of the additional filament and circuit.

To sum it up, I think it's good the way you have your pods done and I'm just curious as how it works and it's limitation or effect, if any, on the rest of the signals.

 

[sxty8goats]

There is a transistorized switch controlling the ground path from ground to high or 12volt nominal voltage. Is that solid state switching ample enough to carry the current from an incandescent lamp?

I'm not sure if you are referring to the flasher relay here. If so, the relay flash rate on the bike is affected by resistance. This is to give you an indication that you have a bulb out. If you loose a corner, that side will cycle faster. If you switch to LED, which have less resistance than the bulb, your blinkers go double time. I switched to a timed relay from CustomeLED that isn't affected by resistance. So it flashes bulbs and LED's at the same rate.

 

[Motogiro]

I'm not sure if you are referring to the flasher relay here. If so, the relay flash rate on the bike is affected by resistance. This is to give you an indication that you have a bulb out. If you loose a corner, that side will cycle faster. If you switch to LED, which have less resistance than the bulb, your blinkers go double time. I switched to a timed relay from CustomeLED that isn't affected by resistance. So it flashes bulbs and LED's at the same rate.

No I was only referring to using the indicator signal wire as a Hi/Low for conduction/ non conduction on the LED pod circuit.

I have a pretty solid understanding on the flasher relay and related current differences and flash rates. I believe the OEM relay is also electronic and not the old car flasher type because if it were being used as the old bi-metal flashers were used, the flash rate would slow down or just leave the LED's on. If more load was put on the old type it would flash faster.
It's probably hard to find the old bi-metal flashers anymore but they might still be used in some applications.

 

[Chaosratt]

I think Motogiro's question was (and I'll second it), if Yamaha designed the turn signals with two discreet circuit paths (one for each filament/element), then what design defect allows the signals to operate in the manner I described above? Is it just a fluke of design? Maybe something that works only with an LED's super low current draw, but something that would cause an incandescent to pop a fuse or burn up the flasher relay itself?
What is the new circuit path caused by shorting the running light circuit to the turn signal circuit, and what (reliability) ramifications might it have?

 

[sxty8goats]

I think Motogiro's question was (and I'll second it), if Yamaha designed the turn signals with two discreet circuit paths (one for each filament/element), then what design defect allows the signals to operate in the manner I described above? Is it just a fluke of design? Maybe something that works only with an LED's super low current draw, but something that would cause an incandescent to pop a fuse or burn up the flasher relay itself?
What is the new circuit path caused by shorting the running light circuit to the turn signal circuit, and what (reliability) ramifications might it have?

I'm weak electronically but I did try to run out two circuits and was unable to find a common ground and two hot leads as I expected to. I'd need to see a schematic to really know what the heck was going on but it seemed to work in such a way that if I pulled either 'hot' lead, the running light would still function. I gave up trying to figure it out and just came up with something that 'worked'.

 

[Chaosratt]

I'm making a wild stab here based off my limited electrical experience and 2 semesters of EE in college.
The turn signal relay likely holds the circuit path "down" when not in use, i.e connected to ground, rather than letting hang with no connection. When the relay activates it "pulls up" to let current flow and light the bulb.

Whats going on is that normally the signal circuit is a ground -> ground connection when not in use, and we're just tapping into it. Which explains why when the signal goes active, the light actually goes out with the wiring as I described before. The circuit is then going from the 12v source to another 12v, there's no flow and the light goes out. The relay cycles, "pulls" back to ground, and bingo the light comes back on.

You'd be amazed how bored I can get at work sometimes.

 

[Motogiro]

I think what you're saying is that you hook the positive running light signal to the positive side of the LED and the turn signal positive to the LED ground.

When there is no turn signal, the turn signal positive goes to ground potential and the LED lights with the running light voltage. When the turn signal is present the voltage that was at ground potential, on the negative LED, leg goes to the same potential as the running light, which then turns the light off because no/or little current flows(equal potential on each side of the LED) during the flasher on signal.
This type of setup would would only work with that type of switching which I don't think is very common if at all. I wouldn't recommend trying this configuration unless you know for sure your circuit behaves that way and you have a decent understanding of how to test and wire this.
I would think that most of our flasher signals are the nominal 12 volt on, when signal is present, and then open circuit or floating which would provide no path for current.

I'm making a wild stab here based off my limited electrical experience and 2 semesters of EE in college.
The turn signal relay likely holds the circuit path "down" when not in use, i.e connected to ground, rather than letting hang with no connection. When the relay activates it "pulls up" to let current flow and light the bulb.

Whats going on is that normally the signal circuit is a ground -> ground connection when not in use, and we're just tapping into it. Which explains why when the signal goes active, the light actually goes out with the wiring as I described before. The circuit is then going from the 12v source to another 12v, there's no flow and the light goes out. The relay cycles, "pulls" back to ground, and bingo the light comes back on.

You'd be amazed how bored I can get at work sometimes.

Yes that was my theory earlier in this thread based on what you were saying about a pod light set up.
I think it's great that it works that way because you should be able to run a set up circuit like that for LED indicators up front. This would allow LEDs with out the splitting resistor for running light and directional signals. I'm going to check it out when I get a chance on the R1 to see if they work the same way.
Very cool! :rockon:

I'm liking this more and more!

 

[necrotimus]

I don't know if this helps since the only thing I know about electricity is that it can and will shock me. But another member posted this about POD lights in another old thread

"The way this mod works is when you wire into the positive of the running light and positive of the turn signal, your new light has to get a ground from somewhere.. It gets it by running down the pos wire, thru the bulb, and into the ground wire.. This isnt a problem at all but if your using LED bulbs they may not let the power thru since they are polarity specific.."

I also read when doing the mod that if it doesn't work simply pull out your LED bulb and rotate it 180 so the plugs/polarity are reveresed.

Anyway I can help by telling you that the way the bulbs work when wiring it this way with just the pod harness and no relay:

Both signal and pod act as running lights.
When signal is active it blinks pod-signal-pod-signal not pod&signal-pod&signal.

 

[sxty8goats]

I'm making a wild stab here based off my limited electrical experience and 2 semesters of EE in college.
The turn signal relay likely holds the circuit path "down" when not in use, i.e connected to ground, rather than letting hang with no connection. When the relay activates it "pulls up" to let current flow and light the bulb.

Whats going on is that normally the signal circuit is a ground -> ground connection when not in use, and we're just tapping into it. Which explains why when the signal goes active, the light actually goes out with the wiring as I described before. The circuit is then going from the 12v source to another 12v, there's no flow and the light goes out. The relay cycles, "pulls" back to ground, and bingo the light comes back on.

Ok, I'm a bit confused, simple and trying to learn. My experience with relays is 'normally open' / Normally closed' switches that are activated by supplying a current to an electromagnet which pulls the contact to the 'b' position. Depending on how you wire to the other side of the relay, it will open or close the circuit. In my mind, to 'turn something on' you close the circuit. To turn it off, open the circuit. Obviously this would be a mechanical relay. I've always assumed solid state worked in a similar fashion but never gave it more thought.

Could you expand on the circuit you are talking about a bit? I'm missing something or my old brain isn't seeing the 'new trick' bit. It sounds as though all three wires have a 12v source and the relay grounds one of them to allow current flow in the opposite direction of the original signal. IE, essentially 3 positive connections, deadheaded against each other, (or maybe two, only on the relay side.)

What would be the purpose of this type of circuit over a simple (to me) Positive (running light) Switched positive (Flasher) common ground circuit?

You'd be amazed how bored I can get at work sometimes.

no, I'm right there with you.

 

[Chaosratt]

I'll try and see if I can explain this (no offence, I'm just bad at explaining these things, and I work a tech support job >.< ).

From working with individual LEDs and circuits you can wire the LED in one of two ways.
1) You either have the LED connected to GND and your relay/switch holds the other end to GND as well. When you want the LED to light you connect the + lead to Vcc. This is called a "pull up" circuit design, since the LED is normally at ground and you "pull it up" to power. With both the + and - connected to ground, no light. When you "pull" the + to Vcc, it lights up.

2) The LED is directly connected to Vcc at all times and so is the relay. When you want to LED to light, your realy "pulls down" on one of the leads and connects it to ground. Nominal configuration = + and - connected to Vcc, no light. "Pull down" the - lead to ground and viola, light.

Now in the FZ6, it looks as if the turn signal circuit is the "pull up" type. This creates the effect of being able to wire an LED from +12v on the accessory light to +12v on the turn signal, because when the signal is inactive the relay is holding down to GND. The LED doesn't care, and neither does the circuit in that configuration. The current is still going from +12V of the accessory circuit and just finding ground through an alternate path.
When you activate the turn signal, the LED's path to ground is eliminated (the relay connects the + line of the turn signal element to power) and the light goes out.
Presto, a running light that normally stays on, but turns off with the turn signal. The blink rate may be opposite of a normal turn signal, but it still "blinks".

 

[sxty8goats]

Thanks for the attempt.. I'm goning to have to skech that out and think about it a bit.

To clarify, so that I know I'm picuring it right Vcc is refering to Voltage /DC? It almost sounds as if you have the 'ground' side of the led on a three way switch. So that when you have the LED in the off position you supply 12 VDC to both legs then when you switch to the one position, the lead that was supplying 12 VDC to the negitive lead goes to ground. Allowing the circuit to flow. I don't understand why you (not you personally but anyone) would do that. what are the advantages of that over simply opening the circuit?

 

[Mr_McBride]

Common mod I see for POD lights would work here too.
NOt sure of the exact wiring, so dont quote me on this!
Connect the power to the normal 12v+ on source, then connect the ground to the blinker wire.
Causes the light to stay on like a running light, but blink totally off/on when the turn signal activates, rather than the high/low that even purpos built 3-way LEDs seem to have such problems with.

I did this tonight and it worked perfectly.

I was looking for a solution to have running lights and turn signals.

Thanks