Hard to start - revisited

[Erci]

My bike's been misbehaving the last few days.
Leaving the office today it cranked (quickly) for 4 seconds.. nothing. Started right up on 2nd try.
Few days ago (1st cold morning), it started right up and immediately died. Would not re-start on 2nd try. Restarted on 3rd. I let it idle for 20 seconds or so.. downshifted and it died again.
This pattern has happened 4-5 times so far, but recently it's happening too often for comfort.

Things I've done so far:
1. Ran Seafoam through several tanks.
2. Checked battery terminals.
3. Took apart engine cut-off switch, cleaned and reapplied dielectric grease (but really it was in very good shape to begin with).

Things I've checked:
1. Oil level (good).
2. Coolant level (between min and max).
3. Clutch switch (looks clean.. contacts are fine).
4. Sidestand switch (looks clean.. pops out with no delay).

About the bike:
27.4k miles.
Last TB Sync: 7.5k miles ago.
Last spark plug change: 7.5k miles ago.
Valves have never been adjusted (26k is when the manual calls for it, but nearly everyone on FZ1 forum says their valves are within spec when checked at 26k).

Thing I noticed when it fails to start: exhaust is definitely rich (no spark??)

So.. if this was your bike, where would you go from here / what would you check next?

Thanks!!

 

[Erci]

Forgot to mention: idle is within spec.
When it starts cold, it's turning 1500. When fully warmed up, it's turning ~1250. When partially warmed up (~150 degrees), I noticed RPM is a bit on the low side.. near 1k.

 

[FinalImpact]

Forgot to mention: idle is within spec.
When it starts cold, it's turning 1500. When fully warmed up, it's turning ~1250. When partially warmed up (~150 degrees), I noticed RPM is a bit on the low side.. near 1k.

FZ1 or the 600?

What brand of fuel? Some fuels burn better than others. Plug gap over spec could play a role but in your case I'm sure that's not an issue.

You might pull and inspect the connections for the Air Box temp and Water Temp. Maybe even ohm them to ground when both cold and hot.

If its none of that ^^, you could richin it up a bit as it sounds to be lean (need to know which bike) for best answer.
Also, does it kick onto high idle as it should? My FZ does until the water temp hits 120F and then its promptly off high idle.

 

[Motogiro]

If the FZ1 is like the FZ6, the ECU controls the negative side of the primary on the coil packs. Disconnect the negative battery lead, pull the ECU plug. inspect, blow out connectors with compressed air and hook it all back up again.
What plugs and are they to spec. on the gap?

 

[Erci]

Thanks Randy.. this is regarding my FZ1.

So I just ran the diag mode and sure enough.. got 2 codes:

19 - Sidestand switch (open circuit in the...
30 - Cylinder-#1 ignition coil Actuates the cylinder-#1 ignition

What do you think now?

 

[Motogiro]

Thanks Randy.. this is regarding my FZ1.

So I just ran the diag mode and sure enough.. got 2 codes:

19 - Sidestand switch (open circuit in the...
30 - Cylinder-#1 ignition coil Actuates the cylinder-#1 ignition

What do you think now?

Hmmmm. Might also look at the voltage on your battery during the cranking. Don't you have a Shorai Lithium?

 

[FinalImpact]

I vote FUEL! Any mods to the 1?

But its worth it to do the the above and gather info:
- Cranking voltage at battery or convenient place
- plug condition and gap
- inspect connections at thermistors and ECU main connection

My key tip is its dying after being started which leads me to state of fueling. Does it have an IACV TB sync with the 4 brass screws?
If so a quick cheat if nothing pans out is to screw them all in 1/2 turn and see if it helps. How well does it start when hot?

 

[Erci]

I vote FUEL! Any mods to the 1?

But its worth it to do the the above and gather info:
- Cranking voltage at battery or convenient place
- plug condition and gap
- inspect connections at thermistors and ECU main connection

My key tip is its dying after being started which leads me to state of fueling. Does it have an IACV TB sync with the 4 brass screws?
If so a quick cheat if nothing pans out is to screw them all in 1/2 turn and see if it helps. How well does it start when hot?

No real mods to speak of. Aftermarket can and high flow air filter.. that's it.

Starts immediately when hot.. almost feels like it doesn't even make one full revolution before it fires up.

TB does have the 4 brass screws and it's a monumental PITA to adjust.. nothing like FZ6.. just about impossible to get to.

As I mentioned, I did the sync 7.5k miles ago. Idle is quite smooth and there's no hesitation when the bike runs.

I need to figure out how to load test the battery (disconnect fuel pump? disconnect coils?)

 

[FinalImpact]

I vote FUEL! Any mods to the 1?

But its worth it to do the the above and gather info:
- Cranking voltage at battery or convenient place
- plug condition and gap
- inspect connections at thermistors and ECU main connection

My key tip is its dying after being started which leads me to state of fueling. Does it have an IACV TB sync with the 4 brass screws?
If so a quick cheat if nothing pans out is to screw them all in 1/2 turn and see if it helps. How well does it start when hot?

Wait a minute:
Does it have TWO issues; i.e. "downshifted and it died again." Hard starting and dies when put in gear? If so, the error code may be applicable... Does it die from the gear being selected or the clutch being let out. This matters in where you look next.

Although it may smell rich when cold, even rich will start, but will soon begin to blubber, get loaded up, maybe start looping, and then die. If it fired off in this mode you think the "invisa-choke" was stuck on and open the throttle to clean it out. But the words used were "it dies when you touch the throttle" again, that points to being lean. But as you said, it could be an ignition issue. Personally I think if it were ignition, it would show up in other ways.

Either from damp environment or misfire under load. Like pulling when hot in 3rd or 4th gear from low RPM.
Does it have COPs like the R6 or exposed coils and wires like the FZ6?
It doesn't sound like it gets that far.

EDIT:
I don't see a need to test the battery if it cranks a good clip and doesn't start. Same is true if it starts and then dies and cranks wildly but doesn't start.

On High compression engines I hate starting fluid but you see where I'm going. You need to change the environment.
Is it easy to access the air box?
If so, on a cold morning have it ready (quick access to TB inlets) and when you want to test it, feed each TB inlet a thimble of fuel, toss the lid back on it and see if it fires. If it fires right off then you know it wants more fuel.

 

[Erci]

Wait a minute:
Does it have TWO issues; i.e. "downshifted and it died again." Hard starting and dies when put in gear? If so, the error code may be applicable... Does it die from the gear being selected or the clutch being let out. This matters in where you look next.

Although it may smell rich when cold, even rich will start, but will soon begin to blubber, get loaded up, maybe start looping, and then die. If it fired off in this mode you think the "invisa-choke" was stuck on and open the throttle to clean it out. But the words used were "it dies when you touch the throttle" again, that points to being lean. But as you said, it could be an ignition issue. Personally I think if it were ignition, it would show up in other ways.

Either from damp environment or misfire under load. Like pulling when hot in 3rd or 4th gear from low RPM.
Does it have COPs like the R6 or exposed coils and wires like the FZ6?
It doesn't sound like it gets that far.

EDIT:
I don't see a need to test the battery if it cranks a good clip and doesn't start. Same is true if it starts and then dies and cranks wildly but doesn't start.

On High compression engines I hate starting fluid but you see where I'm going. You need to change the environment.
Is it easy to access the air box?
If so, on a cold morning have it ready (quick access to TB inlets) and when you want to test it, feed each TB inlet a thimble of fuel, toss the lid back on it and see if it fires. If it fires right off then you know it wants more fuel.

Hmm.. lots of interesting thoughts there. The died-after-shift-to-1st-from-neutral has happened only once so far and that was after it had a hard time starting on a cold-ish morning. Typically, it's just hard to start, but once it's running and I let if warm up a bit, the shift to 1st does not kill it.

It's got COPs.. nothing exposed. Once again enormous PITA to work on. I could get to the #2 and #3 without completely pulling the radiator off!

Air box is easy enough to access. Very similar to FZ6, if not easier.. since there's no battery under the tank, so basically just need to pull up the tank and undo about 200 screws holding the top of the air box down

I'll give this a try as soon as I can (weekend, hopefully).

 

[Erci]

Had a bit of time, so pulled the tank off and took the airbox top off. Air filter looks spotless. Undid each and every connector under the tank and used electrical cleaner on it.. figured it can't hurt, since the tank is off.

Randy.. about dropping fuel into TB.. do you mean to drop some fuel directly into each AIR TB inlet (from inside the air box)? If so, how do I open the butterflies to get the fuel past them? I tried to open them by pushing on them (lightly).. no go.

Here's something else I just remembered. My battery is no longer recommended by Shorai for FZ1. They used to recommend 2 sized. I have the smaller one. They now recommend only the larger one. Mine is rated at 210 CCA. The larger one is 270 CCA.

I did check it about an hour after shutting the bike off.. it's at 13.3.

 

[Motogiro]

Had a bit of time, so pulled the tank off and took the airbox top off. Air filter looks spotless. Undid each and every connector under the tank and used electrical cleaner on it.. figured it can't hurt, since the tank is off.

Randy.. about dropping fuel into TB.. do you mean to drop some fuel directly into each AIR TB inlet (from inside the air box)? If so, how do I open the butterflies to get the fuel past them? I tried to open them by pushing on them (lightly).. no go.

Here's something else I just remembered. My battery is no longer recommended by Shorai for FZ1. They used to recommend 2 sized. I have the smaller one. They now recommend only the larger one. Mine is rated at 210 CCA. The larger one is 270 CCA.

I did check it about an hour after shutting the bike off.. it's at 13.3.

Get a voltage reading while cranking the starter. The starter itself will run strong at pretty reduced voltage but other components/electronics may not perform properly below certain voltages.
I wonder if your R6 has a battery you can swap with for a couple of days? Look at the voltage...[emoji4]

Sent from Moto's Motorola

 

[FinalImpact]

As soon as you crank the engine it'll be sucked past the throttle plates even if you dont open them. Although with the key on it should respond to input from you wrist if you want to dump it in.
Just add it right before starting. At best a thimble per hole it may give it 10seconds of noticeable blubbery idle. As it runs out, it may perform just as before.

Another issue that could be masked in all of this is low fuel pressure. We'll get to that later and injector issues...
Any other history of these having this issue?

 

[Erci]

All good thoughts and ideas, fellas! :thumbup:

Yes, there are few posts on FZ1 board about hard starts. Many have had good luck with cleaning connectors under tank. Coincidentally, the bike started up very quickly this morning.. hope it's a good sign.

Cliff, I was trying to find a way to crank the starter without the bike starting, but couldn't find how to disconnect the coils. If it starts up quick, will I be able to see enough of voltage drop or do I need to crank on it for a while (with ignition disabled) to do a proper test?

I'll try to talk to Shorai today too (if work schedule permits).

 

[Motogiro]

All good thoughts and ideas, fellas! :thumbup:

Yes, there are few posts on FZ1 board about hard starts. Many have had good luck with cleaning connectors under tank. Coincidentally, the bike started up very quickly this morning.. hope it's a good sign.

Cliff, I was trying to find a way to crank the starter without the bike starting, but couldn't find how to disconnect the coils. If it starts up quick, will I be able to see enough of voltage drop or do I need to crank on it for a while (with ignition disabled) to do a proper test?

I'll try to talk to Shorai today too (if work schedule permits).

Maybe disconnect the fuel pump at the tank? You may have already fixed it playing with the plugs. Sometimes they get oxidation on the pins, develop a little resistance and you have an error. The reason my thought is in this direction is because you said in the original description that you smelled rich fuel and thought no spark.

When it's intermittent failure it can be frustrating.

Off subject but related:
I have an old but really nice 98 4Runner that's popping a check engine light intermittently. I bought one of those OBDll blue tooth plug interfaces that works with an app called Torque Pro and was able to see the P1700 code which is the tail shaft speed sensor that the ECU uses for some timing and fuel management. Cleaned the connections and it was good for weeks and then back on and off. It's probably the sensor but because it's intermittent?

 

[Erci]

Maybe disconnect the fuel pump at the tank? You may have already fixed it playing with the plugs. Sometimes they get oxidation on the pins, develop a little resistance and you have an error. The reason my thought is in this direction is because you said in the original description that you smelled rich fuel and thought no spark.

When it's intermittent failure it can be frustrating.

Off subject but related:
I have an old but really nice 98 4Runner that's popping a check engine light intermittently. I bought one of those OBDll blue tooth plug interfaces that works with an app called Torque Pro and was able to see the P1700 code which is the tail shaft speed sensor that the ECU uses for some timing and fuel management. Cleaned the connections and it was good for weeks and then back on and off. It's probably the sensor but because it's intermittent?

Makes sense, Cliff. I can easily disconnect the fuel pump (wasn't sure if it was a good way to go, but I guess it's the same as trying to start a bike which ran out of fuel).

Bummer about 4Runner.. definitely frustrating. I've got an ODBII tool with built in error code display and "clear" feature. Has helped me out several times in the past.

 

[FinalImpact]

// derail but related.
A 240Z with hot and cold start issues. Ps these early ones even have a 7th injector just for startup that sprays the whole intake too. Anyway i made timer circuit that would open that 7th injector and give it 25msec blast. It worked well in that application. The old 555 timer to the rescue and a diode so the ECU didnt feel it. Although i think it ran a relay in there so the diode was a waste...

I find syringes are very handy. For testing purposes on another Nissan product i ran teflon tube through a port that was plugged (rubber cap into intake manifold) just for the purpose of adding fuel when it wouldnt start. This lead to a flaky ignition pickup as adding fuel didnt work. But it did let me know that fuel was not the issue. Ps it was heat related....

 

[Erci]

Just spoke to Shorai rep.. so far very impressed with their CS. She said after some testing they've decided that the battery I got was too small for my bike. She also mentioned that 13.3, 1 hour after riding, is very low. Fully charged it should put out 14.4.

She can send me a larger refurb free of charge or give me 50% off on new :cheer:

I asked about load testing.. she said to reply to her email and she'll forward to techs to give me exact numbers.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

If you have a volt meter, just crank starting it and watching the meter will show a voltage drop, even if just for a moment..

My battery is on the way out and is NOW currently loosing the screen EVERYTIME I crank it up (just for a split second). I don't loose the clock, it spins over fine/starts fine, however, the voltage drops when CRANKING to 8 volts... That's HOT and COLD-everytime..

The Shoria's, at least when they first came out, had issues starting in cold enviroments. They wanted you to turn on the ignition, let the battery get some drain, then start...

You may want to try turning on the ignition, let it sit for a minute, then try cranking...

 

[Erci]

If you have a volt meter, just crank starting it and watching the meter will show a voltage drop, even if just for a moment..

My battery is on the way out and is NOW currently loosing the screen EVERYTIME I crank it up (just for a split second). I don't loose the clock, it spins over fine/starts fine, however, the voltage drops when CRANKING to 8 volts... That's HOT and COLD-everytime..

The Shoria's, at least when they first came out, had issues starting in cold enviroments. They wanted you to turn on the ignition, let the battery get some drain, then start...

You may want to try turning on the ignition, let it sit for a minute, then try cranking...

Thanks, Scott. Yeah, I'm aware of the cold starting thing. It's actually a standard LiPo deal.. they recommend turning on all the lights / accessories and just leaving it on for few minutes.

My last track day of the year, last season: There was ICE on bike seat in the morning. When I went to start the bike... zero.. not turning over at all. Plugged in my heated gear and let it sits for few minutes. Turned right over on the next try

Still waiting to hear from Shorai people on exact numbers before I do the load test.