Hardest technique to master?

[mxgolf]

I totally agree with the throttle control issue. It has a lot to do with confidence, balance, nerves and situation for you and your bike. I ride a dirt bike and have for 30+ years so I have the balance. There is a lot of factors at work every time we ride. Also all our FZ's are somewhat different. All the mods. I want to upgrade my suspension this winter and that will help with my confidence. Misti's bike's are factory trick and set up just for her. Ours are generic when purchased. Thanks for the post Misti. :thumbup::thumbup:

 

[abacall]

Hi mate,
Are you left handed? I am right handed and I find that I enjoy my left turns better. In that I feel more comfortable going in harder and fell better balanced. I always put it down having my dominant side still on the bike and not hanging off. If that makes sense.

Nelly:thumbup:

Yes, I'm left handed and right eye dominant. I know it's something I do, and I try to fix it with practice. But I always dive deeper and hand lower and more comfortable on my right.

As for throttle control; it's a tool to adjust the suspension and geometry of a bike in orde to allow me to efficiently follow my intended line.. That means I roll off when starting a turn to help with turn-in, and I roll on it to settle the suspension on exit.

 

[Chaosratt]

Slowing down enough to fully check out a pretty woman pedestrian on the sidewalk wearing a mini-skirt without target-fixating and dumping.:BLAA:

I find I have the opposite issue.
Slowing down for a good view has never been my problem.
Its when they cross in front of you (at a crosswalk/stoplight). Combined with the fizzer's notoriously small friction zone, I've had several 'false starts' if you will...

 

[Misti]

<So, what do YOU think is good throttle control? Rolling on at the apex, getting on the gas ASAP, maintenance throttle, trailbraking and then hard on the gas? How would you describe good throttle control to another rider?>

Good throttle control, disturbs the chassis the least. Keep the suspension in the center of it's stroke, so you can maintain traction. Carry as much speed as that traction will allow.

Well explained and yes, that is certainly the GOAL of good throttle control but I guess the next question is, how do you achieve that? What exactly do you DO with the throttle in order to keep the suspension in the center of the stroke?

Misti

 

[Misti]

I totally agree with the throttle control issue. It has a lot to do with confidence, balance, nerves and situation for you and your bike. I ride a dirt bike and have for 30+ years so I have the balance. There is a lot of factors at work every time we ride. Also all our FZ's are somewhat different. All the mods. I want to upgrade my suspension this winter and that will help with my confidence. Misti's bike's are factory trick and set up just for her. Ours are generic when purchased. Thanks for the post Misti. :thumbup::thumbup:

I WISH my bikes were factory trick and set up just for me That is one thing that I struggled with the most in my riding is trying to understand suspension and get the bike set up just right. I never had any real consistent help at the races in terms of set up, nor was I ever able to just do a track day or two in order to work on set up alone, a lot of times my races were the first time I had seen the track, or the first time I had ever raced there.

I think that is why I'm such a believer in proper riding technique first and foremost, because I know that good technique can help you ride around your bike's issues. At the Superbike School we had instructor bikes and we weren't always assigned the same bikes, which mean that I was often on one that was set up for the average male rider (which isn't me). I understand that the FZ's are different but the principles of skills like throttle control are the same no matter what bike you ride. You use the throttle to help make the bike as stable as possible.

Cheers,
Misti

 

[RJ2112]

Well explained and yes, that is certainly the GOAL of good throttle control but I guess the next question is, how do you achieve that? What exactly do you DO with the throttle in order to keep the suspension in the center of the stroke?

Misti

I spent so much time as a kid driving really, really beat up old cars and trucks that I learned early on to stay loose and relaxed and let the vehicle 'take it's head'..... Gentle inputs aren't the only way to do that; but understanding how long it takes for the bike/car/truck/whatever to sort itself out when you toss it into a turn is really important. Odd sized tires, mismatched tires, bad shocks, loose kingpins..... but once it settles into the turn, it's on rails..... get the chassis settled, then feed in the gas in a smooth rush, rather than whacking it to the stop.

If you can make that whole turn with ONE input on the bars, instead of hacking through it with lots of corrections..... it's faster. The less bobbling around you do, the less time you lose to loss of traction. Kind of like watching Ono on the short track ice skate racing..... accelerate for as long as possible, toss it in on the edge of the blade, and rail around the corner..... drive on the way out.

Learning to go slow into the corner, so you can accelerate longer on the way out.... getting the tires to do one job at a time.... that's throttle (and traction) management.

 

[Misti]

I spent so much time as a kid driving really, really beat up old cars and trucks that I learned early on to stay loose and relaxed and let the vehicle 'take it's head'..... Gentle inputs aren't the only way to do that; but understanding how long it takes for the bike/car/truck/whatever to sort itself out when you toss it into a turn is really important. Odd sized tires, mismatched tires, bad shocks, loose kingpins..... but once it settles into the turn, it's on rails..... get the chassis settled, then feed in the gas in a smooth rush, rather than whacking it to the stop.

If you can make that whole turn with ONE input on the bars, instead of hacking through it with lots of corrections..... it's faster. The less bobbling around you do, the less time you lose to loss of traction. Kind of like watching Ono on the short track ice skate racing..... accelerate for as long as possible, toss it in on the edge of the blade, and rail around the corner..... drive on the way out.

Learning to go slow into the corner, so you can accelerate longer on the way out.... getting the tires to do one job at a time.... that's throttle (and traction) management.

Yes, slow into the turn and fast out is a good way to manage the throttle and traction. You want to be able to accelerate out of the corner, but why does this acceleration out help with traction?

You also make a good point about only putting one input into the bars. So many riders tend to put too many steering inputs and as you say, hack their way through the corner. Here is a good question, once you have put the initial steering input to get the bike turned, do you need to continue to press on the bar to hold the bike on it's line?

Misti

 

[abacall]

You want to be able to accelerate out of the corner, but why does this acceleration out help with traction?
Misti

It's that whole 10% weight shift we want. The larger contact patch of the rear tire, rotating around the rear, and suspension geometry all help get the bike through the turn faster when twisting the fun grip.

Here is a good question, once you have put the initial steering input to get the bike turned, do you need to continue to press on the bar to hold the bike on it's line?

Misti

Not that I've noticed. When I get that perfect turn, the bike settles in to the desired lean angle and requires no inputs to the bars to keep going through the turn. Even better, it doesn't need any input to right itself either, just a nice twist of the grip.

I just wish I had a dirt bike to help me learn to control my SRs. I get the whole technique thing, I just can't always apply it due to fear getting the best of me. Unfortunately, the street is the last place I want to learn to manage these reactions, and track days are so damn expensive (especially when you have two vehicles that need to play on the track).

 

[RJ2112]

Yes, slow into the turn and fast out is a good way to manage the throttle and traction. You want to be able to accelerate out of the corner, but why does this acceleration out help with traction? Misti

Cornering in general, should isolate the inputs to the available traction. Hard braking, steering, cornering, and acceleration should be nearly seperate acts.

Most steering is done with the front wheel.... that's what shifts the bike's center of gravity so the lean will turn the bike. 85% of the braking traction is there as well (vertical). As there is less rubber on the side of the tire (and you are using up a bunch of that in the corner), you have less traction available. (Not to mention limited suspension movement) Standing the bike up to accelerate feeds in the wider part of the tread, and provides more traciton for acceleration.

Standing the bike up should be a smooth transition... reaching 100% acceleration when the cornering load decreases enough to allow that. Ask too much, and you'll get a powerslide. Then, we're really talking about 'hacking'. But even that is manageable, the smoother you are on the inputs. Look where you want to go, don't freak out, and ride it out.....

You also make a good point about only putting one input into the bars. So many riders tend to put too many steering inputs and as you say, hack their way through the corner. Here is a good question, once you have put the initial steering input to get the bike turned, do you need to continue to press on the bar to hold the bike on it's line?

Misti

If you are correctly positioned on the bike, looking at the exit, with correct pressure on the pegs, seat, and controls..... you should not need to change a thing until you feed in more power for the exit. Pressure on the bars should be loose and easy..... but it needs to be there to accomodate unforseen mid corner corrections, etc.

 

[fz6nick]

Waiting the 2 lap rule to go balls out at a Trackday........

On the streets, I have a bad habit of not making full stops. also, U turns, I always go slower than needed just to practice putting all my weight on the outside peg etc.

 

[Shinn]

I have a bad habit of holding my clutch in on really sharp turns to decelerate.

I agree on the throttle control. It is probably the hardest to master.

 

[Misti]

It's that whole 10% weight shift we want. The larger contact patch of the rear tire, rotating around the rear, and suspension geometry all help get the bike through the turn faster when twisting the fun grip.

Not that I've noticed. When I get that perfect turn, the bike settles in to the desired lean angle and requires no inputs to the bars to keep going through the turn. Even better, it doesn't need any input to right itself either, just a nice twist of the grip.

.

Exactly, the reason why we want to roll on the throttle throughout the turn is so that we get 10-20 % weight transfer to the rear of the bike which puts the suspension in the correct range (not too much on the front tire). It doesn't take much acceleration to do this, As Keith Code says in Twist of the Wrist II " it's the force generated by a smooth fifth-gear roll-on in the 4000-6000 range on pretty much anything over 600cc. That's not much acceleration, but it does the job."

Giving more gas than this, or less, or playing with the throttle mid turn will change how your bike handles in the corner.

I also asked if you needed to continue to put pressure on the bars once you had turned the bike and you had said you hadn't noticed A lot of riders believe that you need to continue to HOLD pressure on the bar once the bike is in the turn. This isn't true. One input into the bars gets the bike turned and then you just need to release pressure on both bars, and the bike will maintain that same line (provided you have good throttle control).

Continuing to put pressure on the bar throughout the turn causes the bike to hitch and wiggle mid corner and makes things choppy.

A few of you have mentioned that you don't need to STEER the bike back out of the corner, that just a twist of the grip is all you need, but the throttle doesn't stand a bike up, counter-steering does. Pressure on the bar is needed to steer a bike INTO a corner, and OUT.

Misti

 

[kellybt1052]

Thanks for all the great replies here. One particular technique that was mentioned on more than one occasion, and I touched on it in the above post, was throttle control. Many of you have said that TC is one of the hardest techniques to master.

At the Superbike School it is the very first lesson we teach, to EVERYONE, regardless of riding speed, ability, or experience.

I find that riders in general will often talk about good throttle control, but when asked what good throttle control is, will give different answers. So, what do YOU think is good throttle control? Rolling on at the apex, getting on the gas ASAP, maintenance throttle, trailbraking and then hard on the gas? How would you describe good throttle control to another rider?

Misti

Throttle control is certainly the thing I tried (and continue to to try) to understand and get better at each time I ride, particularly at the track. It seems to me that good throttle control is having the knowledge to use the throttle appropriately in each circumstance you encounter. Each ride, track day poses a infinite number of situations that may require a differing set of throttle responses. I read a quote from one of the greats (schwantz, rainey or roberts, one of those) that the throttle and brake were one control and that they should be used as one control. That stuck with me as "throttle control". Being able to use the throttle and Brake as one allows for effective reaction to most situations

 

[Misti]

Throttle control is certainly the thing I tried (and continue to to try) to understand and get better at each time I ride, particularly at the track. It seems to me that good throttle control is having the knowledge to use the throttle appropriately in each circumstance you encounter. Each ride, track day poses a infinite number of situations that may require a differing set of throttle responses. I read a quote from one of the greats (schwantz, rainey or roberts, one of those) that the throttle and brake were one control and that they should be used as one control. That stuck with me as "throttle control". Being able to use the throttle and Brake as one allows for effective reaction to most situations

I'm not really sure I understand how you can say that the throttle and brake are one control. If you are talking about trailbraking, where you trail the brakes into the corner and then as you are releasing the brakes you begin rolling on the throttle then I could see how they could be considered one control action, but in general, I don't think it makes sense. I only trail brake in some situations (mostly racing) and don't recommend trailing the brakes on the street as it creates bad riding habits and is used as a crutch for improper entry speed.

Throttle control to me is learning how to use the throttle to control your stability in the corners. You mention that each ride or circumstance may require a different throttle response and while I agree that you need to be flexible and ready to make adjustments according to each situation, I think that there is a basic throttle control rule that can be applied to almost all corners and all riding situations. It is, as Keith Code puts it "Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled continuously, evenly and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn."

What this does is ensure the proper weight transition from front to rear and sets the suspension in the correct range for a stable bike, and it can be applied in almost every type of corner and every type of riding situation. You don't want to be making throttle changes mid corner as it will only upset the stability of the bike.

Misti

 

[kellybt1052]

Thanks for the feedback Misti! Sorry for the confusion, the reference to "one Control" was more mental for me. While not specifically referring to Trail braking which as you noted is rarely advised outside of track/racing environment (and a skill I am just now starting to develop on track) I was speaking more to the concept that the controls on the right side are used in concert with one another. When I started, my mind ticked through 1. Brake 2. ID entry line 3. Lean 4. crack and roll on throttle.

Big fan of Keith's work and it helped me IMMENSELY to spend most of my first year on a bike working on the concept you articulated, control entry speed, and then once cracked, consistently roll on the throttle. My problem was the sequence was in my head and when i heard the comment that it is "all one control" a light bulb went off that the brake and throttle while independent are integrated in getting through the corner as one constant action not necessarily independent steps.

The awareness of controlled entry speeds and the consisetnt and constant application of throttle made my trackday and schools so much more effective as I was rarely entering too fast but working my pace up as my comfort in skills increased through the year.

Thanks again, great to have your feedback here and look forward to more.

 

[Misti]

Thanks for the feedback Misti! Sorry for the confusion, the reference to "one Control" was more mental for me. While not specifically referring to Trail braking which as you noted is rarely advised outside of track/racing environment (and a skill I am just now starting to develop on track) I was speaking more to the concept that the controls on the right side are used in concert with one another. When I started, my mind ticked through 1. Brake 2. ID entry line 3. Lean 4. crack and roll on throttle.

Big fan of Keith's work and it helped me IMMENSELY to spend most of my first year on a bike working on the concept you articulated, control entry speed, and then once cracked, consistently roll on the throttle. My problem was the sequence was in my head and when i heard the comment that it is "all one control" a light bulb went off that the brake and throttle while independent are integrated in getting through the corner as one constant action not necessarily independent steps.

The awareness of controlled entry speeds and the consisetnt and constant application of throttle made my trackday and schools so much more effective as I was rarely entering too fast but working my pace up as my comfort in skills increased through the year.

Thanks again, great to have your feedback here and look forward to more.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. Throttle control is such an important skill to master and a lot of times it gets overlooked by riders, or they think they have throttle control dialed in and they never revisit it or continue to work on improving it.

I find that I am constantly working on many riding skills because you might improve in one area, say, you enter a turn a little bit faster, then you suddenly might need to work on your visual skills in the middle of that turn because you are going faster. It is constantly evolving.

You make a good point about getting the entry speed set correctly so that you can have good throttle control. What are some of the ways that you make sure you enter a corner at a good pace. How do you avoid going in too fast, or even too slow?

Misti

 

[wrightme43]

Not focusing to much attention on the cars that come up to stop signs very fast that I am passing by. I have noticed many times that they become the focus of my attention. It happens in cars too. I am terribly aware of how crappy some vehicles are maintained, and the attitude of the people that drive them. I try the wide screen vision drill, I try very hard to get my focus back out to distance, but untill the vehicle is put into the low threat file in my mind I want to watch them. I guess I should explain that.
When I see other vehicles I put them into catagories.
High threat (can easily turn across my path, or hit me)
Med threat ( would have to do something extra stupid to get to me, but still could)
Low threat ( almost cant hit me at all)
No threat ( cant hit me)
Keeping the wide screen situational awareness up when there are a few high threat vehicles is hard for me. I know that opens me up to a unseen or unnoticed high threat that can hit me. You know, the old its the one you dont see that gets you thing.

 

[lonesoldier84]

Diving hard into a sharp corner, especially after coming out of another corner going the other way.


I mean like a hairpin. On highways the turns I'm talking about are the ones labelled as 20 or 30kph corners. I can usually manage double the recommended speed for corners on highways (eg. 60kph corners I will do at 120kph and still feel comfortable I've left a margin for error of 15-20%) but those hairpins are EXTREMELY challenging.

It is the combination of being leaned so far over and not being at a high speed. When I'm at a higher speed I have a better sense of balance when really leaning over. I've still yet to get a knee down anyplace, but I was pretty close near the end of this past season.

The main problem with those hairpins is that psychologically I have a tough time getting my weight way off the bike at low speed corners the same way I do in higher speed corners. So in low speed hairpins the pegs are grinding but the turn radius is not what it could be if I were to get more off the bike.

 

[Misti]

Not focusing to much attention on the cars that come up to stop signs very fast that I am passing by. I have noticed many times that they become the focus of my attention. It happens in cars too. I am terribly aware of how crappy some vehicles are maintained, and the attitude of the people that drive them. I try the wide screen vision drill, I try very hard to get my focus back out to distance, but untill the vehicle is put into the low threat file in my mind I want to watch them. I guess I should explain that.
When I see other vehicles I put them into catagories.
High threat (can easily turn across my path, or hit me)
Med threat ( would have to do something extra stupid to get to me, but still could)
Low threat ( almost cant hit me at all)
No threat ( cant hit me)
Keeping the wide screen situational awareness up when there are a few high threat vehicles is hard for me. I know that opens me up to a unseen or unnoticed high threat that can hit me. You know, the old its the one you dont see that gets you thing.

Yes, this is a tough technique to master but one that is very very important. It is great that you have recognized that you get focussed on vehicles and target fixate on them because that is the first step in changing that particular behavior. It is also good that you recognize that you need to continue to work on the wide screen or wide vision drill because that is the skill that is going to help you overcome this "survival reaction."

It takes a lot of practice to be able to maintain a wide view when riding, especially when you see things that seem like threats to you. Whenever you notice your view starting to shrink down, try to pull your vision out a little bit further to see more of the road. Start by opening up your vision a little bit at a time. You can also try to look a little bit further ahead to see if that helps.

A friend of mine once said that riding is like playing a video game and the object is to always have an out, and to be able to predict what the other vehicles are going to do. Having a wider vision, and being able to see the whole picture really helps. Another way of thinking about it is to try to look where the other vehicles ARE NOT, because they are only taking up a little bit of space on the street or the track and the space that they are NOT TAKING up is much bigger (and safer)

I hope that made sense, I'm a little sleep deprived lately

Misti

 

[Misti]

Diving hard into a sharp corner, especially after coming out of another corner going the other way.


I mean like a hairpin. On highways the turns I'm talking about are the ones labelled as 20 or 30kph corners. I can usually manage double the recommended speed for corners on highways (eg. 60kph corners I will do at 120kph and still feel comfortable I've left a margin for error of 15-20%) but those hairpins are EXTREMELY challenging.

It is the combination of being leaned so far over and not being at a high speed. When I'm at a higher speed I have a better sense of balance when really leaning over. I've still yet to get a knee down anyplace, but I was pretty close near the end of this past season.

The main problem with those hairpins is that psychologically I have a tough time getting my weight way off the bike at low speed corners the same way I do in higher speed corners. So in low speed hairpins the pegs are grinding but the turn radius is not what it could be if I were to get more off the bike.

You are not leaving yourself any margin for error if the pegs are grinding as you go through those hairpin turns. It sounds like you are doing something different with your body position in the tighter turns than you are in the sweepers, and your throttle control could be different.

Without getting your weight "way off the bike" in low speed corners, what do you think you could do with your body and with the throttle that would make those kinds of corners better?

Misti