More lies on Healthcare.

[wrightme43]

Poll: The Mayo Clinic said the American people would be "losers" under the House's health care proposal. Do you agree? - Washington Times


How about this one?

96% of the votes believe the american people will lose out with the healthcare reform put forth by the house.

96% as of right now.

Poll: The Mayo Clinic said the American people would be "losers" under the House's health care proposal. Do you agree? - Washington Times

 

[Wavex]

Really? Well I guess he's been lying to everyone for the past year then, eh?

YouTube - Obama Opens Health Care Summit

YouTube - President Obama's Three Principles for Real Health Care Reform

The cost is his #1 reason. It is a pillar of his entire economic plan.

Nancy Pelosi agrees. "It's about cost and bringing that cost down."

YouTube - President Obama on Health Care Reform: Urgency and Determination

So what are you saying? You didn't believe him? You think he doesn't believe in what he's been saying all along, that his real motives are not what he has stated hundreds of times? We can agree on that I suppose, but passing something incomplete is wreckless. Passing something directly contradictory to your clearly stated reasons and goals will be political suicide. What do you think will happen when it becomes clear that this is a massive increase in cost burden on an already unsustainable system? Yes it is very easy to point out mistakes in hindsight when they are so glaring, that's why you would hope to make the right decisions up front.

Calm down Cuba, you're going to have a heart attack. Debating with you reminds me of the fights I used to have with my sister when we were 10 years old... "you said this but you did this!" "no liar, I am right, you are wrong!", "so what are you saying, huh? huh? huh? You didn't believe him? huh? huh?, you think he doesn't believe in what he is saying? huh? huh? I am going to tell mom!!!" lmao

Seriously, let's grow up a bit and look at this from a mature adult point of view please. Who cares if I believe Obama... who cares if I think he doesn't believe in what he's been saying all along? I mean, what kind of questions are these anyway... You make it sound like Obama's main goal in life is to ruin the US... it's ridiculous.

We can summarize every single thread and political discussion on this forum by saying this:

Obama's goals are the same as yours (for the most part, i.e. make the US a better place), but you just disagree with the methods he uses to reach these goals, and believe his methods will lead the US to bankruptcy, right?

You think it should be done differently, it should be done "your way", even though you haven't really got a clue about how to really make it happen. You're just behind your keyboard regurgitating stuff you read on the internet, or heard on the radio, or seen on TV... so please, take a step back and realize that you're not helping anything get better... as a matter of fact all you do is spend your time trying to find bad stuff to say about Obama, no matter what subject... as soon as Obama makes a decision, it is your priority to point fingers, and tell the world that you disagree, which accomplishes absolutely nothing.

The bottom line is neither you or anyone else really knows for a fact what methods are the best ones to reach the same goal, and while you spend your time criticizing him, Obama is actually trying to get things done. Again, if you think your ideas (well the ideas of the ppl you paraphrase) are better than Obama's and his staff, run for office and make it all better for us please.

This directly applies to the topic at hand... you think his new healthcare system will cost more, but really you have no clue... you're read it somewhere and jumped on it to criticize him some more... that's the reality. In the meantime, Obama's trying to make a better system that will cost less. Let's see if it works! and btw, even if Obama would follow every one of your advise starting today, nothing says it would work any better than his system... If his plan doesn't work you'll be able to criticize him again in a couple of years, yet you won't know if "your" plan would have worked any better than his. So again, take a step back and realize nothing is as black and white as you try to make it look.

****, I'm late to a meeting lol

 

[wrightme43]

Cancer survival rates worst in western Europe - Telegraph

John Turley-Ewart: Rationing health care in Canada continues to take its toll - Full Comment

PrairiePundit: The horrors of rationed health care in Canada

RealClearPolitics - Only Way to Reduce Costs is to Ration Healthcare

 

[Cuba]

Wait a second here. My point, and that of the CBO, and congressional democrats balking at this bill, is that it will increase the cost. YOU said that YOU believe it will increase the cost:

expecting to pay lower costs for a better system is counter-intuitive anyway

So I think we agree there. Early you said the cost was infact the reason for this urgency and that is why it must be addressed immediately.

Per what you're stating (i.e. yearly increase of 6+% if we keep going with the current system), making a change is urgent right? very urgent indeed...

Then you said that that isn't the point anyway, it's about free healthcare for the poor. I clearly pointed out that the cost IS the point, always has been the point, and Obama is still saying that is the point!

So logically either you believe that Obama was and still is lying when he says that the cost burden is the problem to be solved (which would mean you were either lying or just making stuff up yesterday), or that you think he is completely wrong about the problem of healthcare cost and are not concerned with increasing that cost and adding to that problem(again, in direct contradiction to your own argument yesterday). Your argument changes midway and goes limp, which is it? You think the CBO is lying? Or Obama? Or that Obama and Orzag are more capable of gauging the cost of this program than the CBO? The administration was absolutely dead wrong on the stimulus, so that doesn't make sense. So if you're not even certain what the problem we're trying to solve is, we should just sign a $2 trillion entitlement program during the height of this recession without discussing it? Sounds pretty wreckless doesn't it?

The argument from the left seems to be based on faith rather than science, words rather than facts. My answer is the same as it has been since the beginning, get it right. I'm not claiming to have the answer and never have made that claim, to the contrary I repeatedly made the point that NO ONE has the answer, and that debating, researching, planning, and agreeing on the best solution to solve the problem of increasing cost is the only responsible thing that can be done to reform healthcare.

 

[Cuba]

But after hijacking this thread a bit (sorry!:spank let's get back to the original topic. Does this bill effectively outlaw private insurance? Is it a government takeover of the entire healthcare industry (1/7th of our entire economy)??? I don't know. That's a problem, but the much bigger problem is that Obama doesn't know either:

Morning Bell: Obama Admits He’s “Not Familiar” With House Bill - The Foundry

"Morning Bell: Obama Admits He’s “Not Familiar” With House Bill
Posted July 21st, 2009 at 9.16am in Health Care.

With the public’s trust in his handling of health care tanking (50%-44% of Americans disapprove), the White House has launched a new phase of its strategy designed to pass Obamacare: all Obama, all the time. As part of that effort, Obama hosted a conference call with leftist bloggers urging them to pressure Congress to pass his health plan as soon as possible.

During the call, a blogger from Maine said he kept running into an Investors Business Daily article that claimed Section 102 of the House health legislation would outlaw private insurance. He asked: “Is this true? Will people be able to keep their insurance and will insurers be able to write new policies even though H.R. 3200 is passed?” President Obama replied: “You know, I have to say that I am not familiar with the provision you are talking about.” (quote begins at 17:10)

This is a truly disturbing admission by the President, especially considering that later in the call, Obama promises yet again: “If you have health insurance, and you like it, and you have a doctor that you like, then you can keep it. Period.” How can Obama keep making this promise if he is not familiar with the health legislation that is being written in Congress? Details matter.
We are familiar with the passage IBD sites, and as we wrote last week, the House bill does not outright outlaw private individual health insurance, but it does effectively regulate it out of existence. The House bill does allow private insurance to be sold, but only “Exchange-participating health benefits plans.” In order to qualify as an ?Exchange-participating health benefits plan,? all health insurance plans must conform to a slew of new regulations, including community rating and guaranteed issue. These will all send the cost of private individual health insurance skyrocketing. Furthermore, all these new regulations would not apply just to individual insurance plans, but to all insurance plans. So the House bill will also drive up the cost of your existing employer coverage as well. Until, of course, it becomes so expensive that your company makes the perfectly economical decision to dump you into the government plan.

President Obama may not care to study how many people will lose their current health insurance if his plan becomes law, but like most Americans, we do. That is why we partnered with the Lewin Group to study how many Americans would be forced into the government “option” under the House health plan. Here is what we found:

Approximately 103 million people would be covered under the new public plan and, as a consequence, about 83.4 million people would lose their private insurance. This would represent a 48.4 percent reduction in the number of people with private coverage.

About 88.1 million workers would see their current private, employer-sponsored health plan go away and would be shifted to the public plan.
Yearly premiums for the typical American with private coverage could go up by as much as $460 per privately-insured person, as a result of increased cost-shifting stemming from a public plan modeled on Medicare.

It is truly frightening that the President of the United States is pressuring Congress in an all-out media blitz to pass legislation that he flatly admits he has not read and is not familiar with. President Obama owes it to the American people to stop making promises about what his health plan will or will not do until he has read it, and can properly defend it in public, to his own supporters."

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Oscar54]

I completely disagree with you. Bush is not the one in the charge nor is he the one that is attempting to ram through a piece of legislation that is in direct contradiction to his own stated goal of reducing the cost burden. Whatever horrendous perceived injury you have endured in the past is no excuse for what is happening now, nor is it relevant in this discussion. You are not advancing the discussion, you are taking away from it.

What we are discussing is the current healthcare bill, not your personal hatred of conservatives. Your generalization of roughly half of the population of the US as being Rush Limbaugh is absurd, as is your belief that every republican in office is purely interested in increasing the profits of insurance providers is equally so. One would merely look at the campaign donation figures to see that Democrats receive the same bribes (er, campaign contributions) from the health insurance industry to know that. And yes republicans will make some decisions based on reelection, just as democrats will. That's sort of the point, but I think it's safe to say we'd rather see them be constructive and produce results by working together rather than resorting to partisan politics. There is nothing wrong with standing against something you believe is wrong, and virtually every conservative in the country, as well as many moderate democrats, believe that the levels of spending especially during this recession, are wrong.

Your black and white fantasy land of blind faith that anything Obama does or says is honest and the correct thing to do, free of political influence and above discussion, while anything any republican says is an evil lie and made for purely political reasons is simply delusional. Both have lied, both have made and will make decisions that will negatively effect us, and both must be watched and held accountable for their actions and the results of those actions. It's a fact that I don't believe is debatable by anyone here besides yourself.

But back to the topic at hand, the treatment of this particular bill, as well as what we saw on the "stimulus" bill, is in essence the same form of cowboy politics that led us to Iraq and the intense divisions seen in America today. The polls now show that more than 50% of Americans are opposed to it, and I don't have the figure but a significant majority say that this needs to be discussed openly and debated, not rushed through as quickly as possible. It is too important to be rushed. Are you saying that you disagree, and feel that Obama is correct in breaking his promisses of transparency and bipartisanship, as well as the promise of REDUCING the crippling cost of healthcare by instead shoving through a piece of unilateral closed door legislation that will INCREASE these costs, thus directly contradicting it's very purpose? And if so, why?

We were all in agreement, republicans and democrats, that our healthcare system does need to be reformed. We were in agreement that the costs were becoming unsustainable and that we must make the system more efficient. We were in agreement that, in Obama's own words, this issue is a "ticking timebomb" because we will not be able to afford it. Yet somehow the promise of reducing this cost (which I support) has become a promise to further increase it. THAT is the issue.

I did not bring up Bush, you did.

Obama is not trying to ram through anything because he's on this kick of trying to be bipartisan with the Republicans who have no interest in being bipartisan.

As far as financial burdens, at least Obama is being honest with estimated costs, the last 8 years the Republicans kept the Iraq war off budget to make the deficits look smaller.

I don't have any "horrendous perceived injury" but maybe you do! I'm just stating my position that everything I've seen the Republicans do since 1980 was for the benefit of the oligarchs and corporations and it has bankrupted the country. You can go on you little fantasy tours and believe that this current financial crisis is because of poor people, ACORN, and Barney Frank but that is the Republican Cool Aid you choose to drink. Your affinity for fools like Glenn Beck proves it.

Health care reform is needed now, not 6 months from now, and the Republicans would prefer NEVER, which is their agenda. None of anything you have posted or anything the your Republican friends in Congress have done advances anything but trying to make Obama's agenda fail by total obstruction. They did it to Clinton, they did it to the 2007-2009 Congress and they are doing it to Obama now. Lindsay Graham said if Obama was elected his duty would be to stop anything he tried to accomplish.They want the Insurance and Pharmaceutical Companies to control health care not us.

I don't hate conservatives, I hate liars and any politician that puts personal gain ahead of the common good. The fact that Democrat or Republican politicians can be whores to industry doesn't change that fact. Corporations should not have the ability to contribute to political campaigns because they can't vote, are not natural persons, and have too much money that their corrupting influence is destroying our government and liberty. Lincoln even said so.

I don't have any black and white fantasy about Obama or anything he does being good. Personally I think he's too much in the pocket of Big Business, judging by his cabinet picks of Geithner and Summers. He's very right of center fiscally and politically, but portraying him as a radial "Socialist" or "Chivez" lover serves their purposes better.

The fact that polls are moving against Obama is because the constant negative media the enemies of health care reform have been pursueing and it is being effective in a destructive manner. Please tell me what, if anything, the Republicans have offered to make anything better about health care in America? Taxing the Benefits, maybe?

The Republican's are not in agreement about the need for health care reform. They are just fine with it as it is, with the HSA accounts that allows millionaires to shelter more money tax free. Their purpose is to water down, amend, and propose self serving changes, is return for their support, and then after they get them, they will vote against it just like the did with the stimulus bill. They reduced its size, and demand certain tax breaks, and got them and then voted against it anyway. They are liars.

I hope Obama figures that out, but I'm sure you won't.

 

[Oscar54]

YouTube - ObamaCare Yay Or Nay? The Truth About Canada!

Very Enlightened!

 

[Wavex]

Cancer survival rates worst in western Europe - Telegraph

John Turley-Ewart: Rationing health care in Canada continues to take its toll - Full Comment

PrairiePundit: The horrors of rationed health care in Canada

RealClearPolitics - Only Way to Reduce Costs is to Ration Healthcare

If you think this would change anyone's mind, check out this movie and let me know if it changed yours:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/mpd/permalink/m2GZWMVISG1TRB/ref=ent_fb_link]View a clip[/ame]


And I also suggest a little movie you may like called Sicko... I am sure it'll change your mind completely, and it's on sale too!!!

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UNYJXQ?ie=UTF8&tag=dogeatdogfilms&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B000UNYJXQ]Amazon.com: Sicko (Special Edition): Michael Moore, Tony Benn, George W. Bush, Reggie Cervantes, Bill Clinton, Hillary Rodham Clinton, John Graham, Aleida Guevara, William Maher, Richard Nixon, Linda Peeno, Amelia Green-Dove, Amy McCampbell, Aneetha [/ame]

:thumbup:

 

[wrightme43]

Michael Moore is out of his mind, and has been for a very very long time.



On the note of rationed healthcare, and lower than what should be expect cancer survival rates in countries with socialised healthcare simular to what we would recieve do the cold hard facts matter at all?

If something doesnt work, wishing harder that it would is not the answer.

How about this one. It needs fixed desperately.
If you contract antibiotic resistant staph in the hospital while you are in for surgery you are charged for the treatment of MRSA even if it results in your death, even if the surgery was non life threating.

Doctors, hospitals, and dentists max out insurance benifits as quickly as possible on every visit.

Hospitals charge one price for selfpay (higher) one price for insured, and then accept a lower price from the government for medicare. How is that right????

Healthcare can be fixed with proper rules, as it is now its a giant blood sucking industry.
Could making it operate like the DMV make it better?????? HOW???????

Like I have said before.

Remember that one thing the Government did right with a minimum of scandel and underbudget???

Yeah.

 

[wrightme43]

"The fact that polls are moving against Obama is because the constant negative media the enemies of health care reform have been pursueing and it is being effective in a destructive manner. Please tell me what, if anything, the Republicans have offered to make anything better about health care in America? Taxing the Benefits, maybe?"
Oscar^^^

This is the best one you have done here.

 

[Cuba]

The fact that polls are moving against Obama is because the constant negative media the enemies of health care reform have been pursueing and it is being effective in a destructive manner. Please tell me what, if anything, the Republicans have offered to make anything better about health care in America? Taxing the Benefits, maybe?

I totally disagree. Funny, we actually HAVE universal healthcare in this country. It's been in place for several years now. The only universal healthcare in this country is found in Massachusetts and was the work of Mitt Romney, a conservative republican, working hand in hand with Ted Kennedy and the democrats in the state legislature, as well as the doctors, insurance companies, republicans, experts, etc.

The Gaggle : Romney on Obama's Push For Health Reform: Slow Down

This is the single most experienced person in the country when it comes to designing, passing, and implementing sweeping universal healthcare reform, yet he has been ignored by the administration. Weird. He wants to be involved, he wants to work with both sides of the aisle to pass the RIGHT bill, but the left doesn't want to play.

Your arguments that we need to pass something without understanding what it is, what it will cost, what effect it will have on our families, on our children and grandchildren, our economy as a whole, given the fact that our president's central goal is to reduce that cost burden while every analysis of it shows that it will instead increase that burden, is completely absurd.

 

[Wavex]

Your arguments that we need to pass something without understanding what it is, what it will cost, what effect it will have on our families, on our children and grandchildren, our economy as a whole, given the fact that our president's central goal is to reduce that cost burden while every analysis of it shows that it will instead increase that burden, is completely absurd.

That would be absurd indeed. Kind of like what you're talking about. If no-one read the bill, if no-one understands the bill and its effects on our economy, our poor little children, and our doomed grandchildren, isn't it weird that "every analysis of it shows that it will instead increase that burden"?? Can you explain to me how anyone can do an analysis on something no-one read or understands? LOL

 

[Cuba]

That would be absurd indeed. Kind of like what you're talking about. If no-one read the bill, if no-one understands the bill and its effects on our economy, our poor little children, and our doomed grandchildren, isn't it weird that "every analysis of it shows that it will instead increase that burden"?? Can you explain to me how anyone can do an analysis on something no-one read or understands? LOL

I already posted the results of the CBO analysis showing that they estimate approximately $250B in increased costs. I have also posted the transcript of Obama himself explaining that the reason he can't answer the question of whether this bill outlaws private insurance coverage because he isn't familiar with the bill. The CBO doesn't know all of the caveats of this bill, they just make every effort to estimate the hard costs given the information available such as the estimated increase in covered individuals, the current cost per individual, inflation, estimates on potential reductions in covered services, etc. They don't actually know how it will effect your insurance provider, or your experience with your doctor. Obama admits he doesn't even know if it IS effectively a government takeover of the healthcare industry. He doesn't even know. Does that bother you at all, that Obama will push non stop for something he isn't familiar with, for something that is contrary to everything he has been saying leading up to now? He continues to pledge that this is for the purpose of curbing these costs (although now we know he has decided to ignore the $245B in increased medicare payments to doctors in his total for inexplicable reasons) yet he knows that none of the bills that have been passed do anything to control the cost. He has stated publicly that none of them are good enough, yet we should just pass something anyway, by the end of the week. What kind of leadership is that? Essentially what he has said is:

"Your plans are terrible, do not address the very reason for doing this in the first place, I have no clue what the details are or whether or not this will destroy the private insurance issue or decrease the quality of care, and it seems it will actually increase the cost problem... great! Keep em coming let's pass them immediately without debate!"

It's wrong. You are so quick to gamble with the futures of everyone around you, including your own family, for something you don't understand. You cannot rush this, you cannot get it wrong, you will not get a do-over. Slow down and get it right.

Any argument that this is simply obstructionism for political reasons are equally absurd. It is a group of democrats holding this up, not republicans. Their concerns, which mirror my own, are valid and will require answers before this gets passed.

 

[Hellgate]

As a person who has been a patient/subject of goverment provided health care I am skeptical until I see the meat and potatos of the plan; eg: how will it specifically work. So far we've been given a very board peep of what that plan will be. Yes I understand the Congress and Senate subcommittees are working on it but so far Prez O has only presented the happy version.

My experiance with the Army medical system and the VA system are both good and very bad. Good in that the price is right, free. Bad in that I never saw the same Dr. twice. The wait to get service was longish at times too.

Now what I experianced is based on a massive clinic type system, not an individual provider, so it will be a little different, I think, of what the Prez is proposing.

When I returned from Iraq I had 180 days of health care from the Army. Step 1) get a full physical. This required three trips; 120 miles each visit. From the time I learned the system, requested the appointment and then completed the physical it took 6 weeks. Then I needed the orthopedic surgen. About 3 weeks to see him, then I had to sign up for another type over government health insurance to receive physical therapy so I wouldn't have to drive 120 miles round trip. During my PT I had another three visits with the Ortho for evaluation, 120 miles a trip, and saw a DIFFERENT surgen each time. Two surgens wanted to operate, two did not. My doctor in Kuwait recommended I should have surgery. Ugh!!! I finally gave up. The whole process took almost 5 months.

The VA was actually pretty good, if I want to my local clinic. If I want to the bigger city location it was a nightmare. The local place was very timely with the larger place was HUGE waits, and the closed promptly at 4:00 pm. Getting an appointment could take months, yes months. Many of the VA workers complained of too many people and not being able to keep up. I also noticed that the Drs were either very old or very young...hmmm...

Now if the Prez can keep us at our own Drs, not overly ration care and services it may work. My concern like others is of very slow response, added cost to the government and increased taxes.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Wavex]

I already posted the results of the CBO analysis showing that they estimate approximately $250B in increased costs. I have also posted the transcript of Obama himself explaining that the reason he can't answer the question of whether this bill outlaws private insurance coverage because he isn't familiar with the bill. The CBO doesn't know all of the caveats of this bill, they just make every effort to estimate the hard costs given the information available such as the estimated increase in covered individuals, the current cost per individual, inflation, estimates on potential reductions in covered services, etc. They don't actually know how it will effect your insurance provider, or your experience with your doctor. Obama admits he doesn't even know if it IS effectively a government takeover of the healthcare industry. He doesn't even know. Does that bother you at all, that Obama will push non stop for something he isn't familiar with, for something that is contrary to everything he has been saying leading up to now? He continues to pledge that this is for the purpose of curbing these costs (although now we know he has decided to ignore the $245B in increased medicare payments to doctors in his total for inexplicable reasons) yet he knows that none of the bills that have been passed do anything to control the cost. He has stated publicly that none of them are good enough, yet we should just pass something anyway, by the end of the week. What kind of leadership is that? Essentially what he has said is:

"Your plans are terrible, do not address the very reason for doing this in the first place, I have no clue what the details are or whether or not this will destroy the private insurance issue or decrease the quality of care, and it seems it will actually increase the cost problem... great! Keep em coming let's pass them immediately without debate!"

It's wrong. You are so quick to gamble with the futures of everyone around you, including your own family, for something you don't understand. You cannot rush this, you cannot get it wrong, you will not get a do-over. Slow down and get it right.

Any argument that this is simply obstructionism for political reasons are equally absurd. It is a group of democrats holding this up, not republicans. Their concerns, which mirror my own, are valid and will require answers before this gets passed.

I think we agree that it should not be rushed for no reason. I am sure the people pushing to get it implemented have their reasons though...

That Obama did not read the bill I could care less, he has enough trusted advisers that should be able to give him the main lines of the plan, and I am sure he has an idea of what he is pushing so fervently. Thinking otherwise is ridiculous imo.

You haven't answered my question though, how can you say "the plan is terrible", and "does not address the very reason for doing it in the first place", and may "destroy the private insurance business" or "decrease the quality of care"... etc... while at the same time stating: how can we pass a bill "without understanding what it is, what it will cost, what effect it will have on our families, on our children and grandchildren, our economy as a whole"?

Seriously, which is it? Do you understand the plan and think it is terrible? or do you not understand it and thus don't know what it entails?

It obvious that you are biased... Just like Rush Limbaugh, you have no problem presenting information as fact even though they are not. Believe it or not, I am not biased for or against the healthcare plan, for one because I haven't read it and don't understand the massive implications (and obviously you haven't either), but the reason I get involved in these threads is because aggressive propaganda irritates me, and this is clearly what is happening around here lately, and since most users ignore these threads (because they recognize what's happening), I believe it's healthy to give another point of view, especially for all our international readers who may accidentally read these threads and wonder "WTH are these crazy Americans thinking".

 

[wrightme43]

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!


Here read it for yourself. I especially like the part about the government controling the selection of your end of life doctor and treatment.

http://keithhennessey.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/kennedy_health_bill_draft.txt

 

[wrightme43]

David.
Both Cuba and I have consistently said that the Government (repubs and democs) have failed us as people.

If you see that as bias maybe you could take a look at your own?

 

[Wavex]

Steve, we all have opinions and I respect everyone's opinion. What I don't respect is the way certain people present their opinions, that's all.

I've made a lot of progress though right?

Anyway, Obama explained a lot of things in his speech last night and it made sense to me.

To pick up on your comment about which Dr should be allowed to end people's life, do you really think that any Dr should be able to end anyone's life? Do you think the Gvt just arbitrarily decided to add that clause in there for no reason?

About the auditing of books for companies that self-insure, the reason is obvious too... Do you trust companies to be truthful and to not exploit the system if no-one's there to check up on them? Of course not!

If these 3 extracts are your only problems with this bill, I think they are pretty damn minor!!

 

[wrightme43]

Yes David you are doing a whole whole lot better. I am actually glad that you are here.

In answer to your questions.

No I do not think Drs should be allowed to end your life. Nor should they be required to do so if you begin to place a burden on the system. That is my worry here.

On the auditing. Is it fair to specificly audit a company that does not desire to participate in a government mandated plan?? To use the threat of audit to force conformity is blackmail.

These are not the only three that are a problem. Just quick examples as I just dont have much free time anymore.

Please read thru the bill for yourself. It is not a way to help us.

If the desire was to help us, the lobbiest would be banned from dealing with our elected reps.
There would be a simple clear cost chart of every service, and work to performed on YOU the patient would given a written estimate. The work would need to be justified, and the benifits vs risks would need to be layed out.

There would be no sliding scale of cost for the same job done for the government healthcare, insured healthcare, and self cash payer healthcare.

See here is the problem. Its already happening with GM and Chrysler. They no longer have any real incentive to make a profit (I know I know LOL) How can Ford compete in a fair market with a company that has the ability to control its own intrest rate, mandate that the people it owes have no claim, and sell things for less than they cost. It is no longer a fair open market. Its a gamed market.

That is what this will do to health care. It will make it a gamed market.

In addition the costs are being concealed thru back loading to come due after 10 years. The people in power know they will not hold it. It will fall on those that come behind them. It is a intentional trap.

I do not trust any of them. They are all lyers.

Here is the kicker. The people that are pushing this. The democrats that are pushing this WILL NOT BE EFFECTED BY IT!!!!!! They voted agaisnt being forced to use this system.

It is a case of we are to good to use what you plebes do. It is the continuation of the class rule that is begining here in America.
Senators, and Congressmen send thier children to private schools while mandating behavior and rules in public schools they refuse to send thier children to. They are building a socialised healthcare system that they will be exempt from and refuse to accept as thier own.

Can you see where this is wrong?????? I know you were raised in a different country.
We are all equal here. There is no one person more equal than another. It is unacceptable.

 

[Oscar54]

Poll: The Mayo Clinic said the American people would be "losers" under the House's health care proposal. Do you agree? - Washington Times


How about this one?

96% of the votes believe the american people will lose out with the healthcare reform put forth by the house.

96% as of right now.

Poll: The Mayo Clinic said the American people would be "losers" under the House's health care proposal. Do you agree? - Washington Times

Cancer survival rates worst in western Europe - Telegraph

John Turley-Ewart: Rationing health care in Canada continues to take its toll - Full Comment

PrairiePundit: The horrors of rationed health care in Canada

RealClearPolitics - Only Way to Reduce Costs is to Ration Healthcare

It should come as no surprise that all these rightwing publications or blogs are against doing anything about the current health care system because either 1) They are making tons of $ from the current system and do not want to see their revenue steams curtailed, or 2) they are puppet organizations who's sole purpose is to disseminate the corporate spin, propaganda, or interest in maintaining the status quo as stated in 1).

Mayo Clinic has prospered immensely under the current system and probably is resistant to change because of this.

96% of Washington Times Voters? That's not surprising since this Mooney Rag is a right wing bastion publication. So what is objective about that?

Cancer survival rates are over a 5 year period. So if Americans are diagnosed a year earlier than in Europe with cancer but still die, which most do, that would equate to a 20% better survival rate in America! So is that worth spending twice as much as Europe? I guess it depends on if it is you or not.

Ever wonder why the survival rates are measured in 5 year increments with cancer patients? My spin is that if they used a longer period, their purported success rate would be about zero.

National Post? Per Wiki this publication was started in 1998 by Conrad Black to promote a conservative agenda. Enough said!

Prairie Pundit! WTF is this guy and why should anyone care?

And Real Politics is just a web version similar to the National Post.

Here is what a Noble Prize Economist says about Obama's strategy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/24/opinion/24krugman.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

You can call the NY Times a Liberal rag I guess but you will notice that the column does not have the doom hyperbole of right wing media.