Reusable Filters: Thoughts?

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Last little bit - I hope this at least makes people think about how to properly clean the filters element (not the outside). Bling vs engine wear.....

Nice cheap shot there BTW, I wouldn't expect anything less. BlahBlahBlahBlah

Speaking of engine wear, did you bother to read the oil flow and other spec's vs a paper filter? Should I copy and paste some pictures? I can provide a link if need be.

If you haven't figured out, I'm not a tree hugger.

If you read up some, (especially someone who admittedly opens his own oil filters to see the health of his engine) I use this filter for its benefits such as that, additional oil flow, etc.

Not sure about out there but we have recycling down here for brake cleaner cans, paint cans, chain lube cans, etc.. The aerosol cans get re-cycled, etc. Should we stop lubing our chains, lubing cables, etc?? Guess so!!!

Its too bad you only look / endorse what pleases you and ignore the plus's of other products that you don't. IE Air Assist Forks will leak oil and air and won't work. Ah, NO they don't, try again.. However your entitled to your opinion however wrong it may be..

Don't like it, don't buy it, very simply. Basic common sense

BlahBlahBlah

 

[Taz3]

Giess you didn't click on my link, from that K&P page;

Unique Design, Top Quality Materials and Construction

The K&P Engineering filter element is made from medical grade, type 304 stainless steel micronic filter cloth to provide unmatched protection against oil contamination and resultant engine damage. A one inch square of this material flows an incredible 1.9 gallons of oil per minute at only 1 PSI pump pressure. The adhesive used in the filter assembly process is good to 600 degrees Fahrenheit, far above normal engine operating temperatures. A super strength nickel-plated neodymium rare earth magnet is installed in the top of the element for magnetic pre-filtering of the oil. The sophisticated bypass is engineered for proper differential pressures and consistent operation, delivering a greater percentage of filtered oil while being very easy to clean. The twist lock design assures positive filter element placement and allows for easy disassembly, inspection and cleaning. The quad-ring gasket doubles the seal between the filter and the engine. Finally, the filter housing is carved out of a solid chunk of 6061T6 billet aluminum, which not only looks trick but aids in dissipating heat.

Your guess is incorrect I opened the link, read what you copied into the thread, and searched more around on their site, and the site for PC Racing, and nowhere did I find a comprehensive list of specs like FinalImpact posted:

Some filter specs; should meet most of these...
Part Number: 51358
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: 8
Anti-Drain Back Valve: Yes
Beta Ratio: 2/20=6/20
Burst Pressure-PSI: 265
Max Flow Rate: 8-10 GPM
Nominal Micron Rating: 21
( )* denotes metric

The only item in the paragraph you copied would be the flow... and they mention a measurement that doesn't make sense with the above target, I assume because they used such little pressure in their example.

I am discouraged with both the K&P and the PCRacing sites because they are filled with hype and hyperbole, but the only facts seem to be about their manufacturing processes and no easy way to compare pertinent stats such as the list above. I can't even tell if either has, or needs, a bypass valve, let alone what pressure it operates at; can't see if they have anti drain back valves (and both of these seem important to me, though I still have a lot to learn); no comparable flow rates; I found one had a claimed burst pressure of 1000PSI, not sure of the other; no comparable beta ratio's (from my understanding, nominal ratings aren't even worth looking at).

FinalImpact - as for 2 cans per oil change, how do you figure? I can't imagine you'd use a whole can to clean the filter...? Regardless, I liked the idea of cleaning it with soap and water... and I could just do my oil change at the end of the day and let the filter dry overnight, or use compressed air to let it dry, that doesn't seem to be an issue imo. I am curious about how much crap may not come off with cleaning, that's my biggest sticking point keeping me from buying one right now, so thanks for pointing that out!

It does sound like more work, which I'm okay with. Cleaning itself isn't too problematic, but knowing how well it's cleaned is. The cost is such that I want some solid stats and bulletproof answers to cleaning before I go ahead and purchase... though, knowing Townsend has had them in 3 bikes for 3 years is very encouraging... I also don't really like the bling factor on them lol, and don't want to shell out another $50 to get it in black lol!

Thanks everyone for your input! And keep it coming (but behave yourselves, lol, this is just friendly discussion) if you think of anything else!!

Townsend, do you ever clean your filters into a light coloured container to see what crap comes out? Does the magnet attract much crap that you can see? And what about taking a high powered magnet and running it around the outside of the filter after cleaning it, would that help get the crude you can't see?

 

[Dry Martini]

Nice cheap shot there BTW, I wouldn't expect anything less. BlahBlahBlahBlah

Speaking of engine wear, did you bother to read the oil flow and other spec's vs a paper filter? Should I copy and paste some pictures? I can provide a link if need be.

If you haven't figured out, I'm not a tree hugger.

If you read up some, (especially someone who admittedly opens his own oil filters to see the health of his engine) I use this filter for its benefits such as that, additional oil flow.

BlahBlahBlah

But is additional oil flow needed for the engine to enjoy long and healthy life. I think not, and evidently so does Yamaha, or they would have specified a different filter.

Don't worry, I am not buying this filter. That is money better spent on a Glock 43.


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[TownsendsFJR1300]

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Townsend, do you ever clean your filters into a light coloured container to see what crap comes out? Does the magnet attract much crap that you can see? And what about taking a high powered magnet and running it around the outside of the filter after cleaning it, would that help get the crude you can't see?

Scott please.

I actually drain the filter into a white small ceramic bowl so ANY metal PARTICLES/debris ARE INDEED VERY VISABLE. I have, (as noted in the video), seen some slight sludgy film where the magnet is, but never seen any metal particles.

Bought with 4,500 HARD miles -one oil change in that time frame), currently at 19,000 using 7100 synthetic.

The bike was bought used by me from a friend (he bought new). It was his son's first bike and run HARD/wrecked. I suspect most/all particles were filtered out before I got it. I have yet to spot anything (any metal, even super fine) in the pleats or in the drained oil (in the basin) where ANY silvery spec's would be seen in the sunlight.

On my 2004 FJR (new to me then), all kinds of metallic silver crap (break in) came out witrh 40 miles on the clock. It was changed again at 600 (with reg filter) and eventually nothing.


As a side note, there are more spec's, for some reason, K&P didn't put them altogether, you do have to do some searching on thier site (especially under the FAQ's).

FAQs | K and P Engineering

Testing | K and P Engineering

 

[FinalImpact]

Here's the deal - we come from different places and see problems differently. Its nothing personal. Right off the bat I am concerned by the lack of product specifications. Maybe those little details shouldn't bother me but they do. I like details, although it may be a curse!

Having worked in manufacturing environments where air, oil, and solvents required cleaning, a Class 5 clean room, automotive transmission, and hydraulic service industries; Well I've seen a lot of different hardware in my lifetime. One common belief they all share is that filtered lubricants are the life blood of pressurized oil systems.
- Rivers were cut through this country by abrasives in fluid. Oils containing abrasives can do this same thing to an engine reducing its life span.

CLEANING:
Some may chose to submerge and rinse these filters in solvents. Others may blow a can of cleaner at the filter. I never watched the video until after posting but we are on the same page that the premiss is back flushing the element will remove particles from the filter. This is what I have a hard time with; Those particulants were forced in there at high pressures and throughout the whole element. Some may have taken hours to get stuck in there working there way inside. Thus a can of solvent does not easily undo this while spraying the element for FIVE MINUTES. A spray nozzle does not offer Laminar flow through 100% of the filter media from its little red nozzle. Its takes the PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE. And thats fine as long the the debris remains in the filter and its doesn't plug it or hinder its flow.

- POINT: The primary job of the FILTER is to REMOVE and retain debris from the oils circulation. So, my grip is this: Unless you reverse the flow and saturate the element while agitating it; the odds of removing all of the debris are unlikely. In fact, you may just loosen them and place them into circulation to make another round though the engine and oil pump.

That said, I'm all for replaceable cartridges. They make sense. Cleaning one without the proper process does not! ADDING TO THIS: from my own personal experience, AMSOIL, does not surrender to solvents easily. So I would need something pretty harsh to remove the oil and get to the debris inside!

My goal here was to get people to think about what it really takes to clean and reuse ANY filter; Like having an Air compressor makes this job much easier - Does EVERYONE HAVE ONE? NO!! - It takes time, a space, cleaners, and a process. - Is it for everyone, maybe not. But just because some ad makes it look appealing, that doesn't mean its doing the best job a filter could.

My posts are not to discredit any person or how they choose to care for their vehicle, that is up to them. If I wanted to be DBag I could have drawn attention to washing the outside of the filter as the highlight of the cleaning process, but I didn't. It did inspire the bling comment. Its nothing personal just a DIFFERENCE of opinion.

 

[Taz3]

But is additional oil flow needed for the engine to enjoy long and healthy life. I think not, and evidently so does Yamaha, or they would have specified a different filter.

Don't worry, I am not buying this filter. That is money better spent on a Glock 43.


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Scott please.

I actually drain the filter into a white small ceramic bowl so ANY metal PARTICLES/debris ARE INDEED VERY VISABLE. I have, (as noted in the video), seen some slight sludgy film where the magnet is, but never seen any metal particles.

Bought with 4,500 HARD miles -one oil change in that time frame), currently at 19,000 using 7100 synthetic.

The bike was bought used by me from a friend (he bought new). It was his son's first bike and run HARD/wrecked. I suspect most/all particles were filtered out before I got it. I have yet to spot anything (any metal, even super fine) in the pleats or in the drained oil (in the basin) where ANY silvery spec's would be seen in the sunlight.

On my 2004 FJR (new to me then), all kinds of metallic silver crap (break in) came out witrh 40 miles on the clock. It was changed again at 600 (with reg filter) and eventually nothing.


As a side note, there are more spec's, for some reason, K&P didn't put them altogether, you do have to do some searching on thier site (especially under the FAQ's).

FAQs | K and P Engineering

Testing | K and P Engineering

Thanks Scott! I did check this over, and they don't mention bypass valve pressure... instead, they seem to indicate that they don't need a bypass valve due to much better flow (and the one graph suggests this as well, if you infer that the sudden drop followed by the sudden peak for regular filters is the bypass valve letting oil through, where the KnP shows a steady flow). So that seems to be covered, but you need to dig for it and then make assumptions.

The anti drain back valve, again, they don't bother linking or citing their "other published tests" that they are basing their tech off of.

Beta ratio they don't mention either because they use a different test, that they claim is better, which also is their reason for not having a nominal rating.

This would all be fine, IF they had good, hard proof... but they don't!!!!!!

The first graph against paper filters has no numbers on it even! And no link to the actual report... just an amateur looking graph that anyone could whip up in excel in 3 minutes. I google'd IBR labs and they do exist as a filtration lab in the US... but they don't offer any info to the public it seems on test results (expected).
The link they do provide... no, wait, they name a website but it's not a link... is just a glorified search engine, it doesn't even have any info on it!! WTF!
Bobistheoilguy is a great site though, however he doesn't talk about their filter at all, or reusable filters, or even filters in general (outside of the forum, which, as we know, can be a free for all of opinions without facts lol).

They provide no explanation of the last couple graphs, and no report or conclusions to explain them either. And they're not even cropped well, so on a couple of them you can't even see the legends for certain axis.

The product is very interesting, but the company looks like crap as far as professionalism and marketing. I will be emailing them with all of these concerns though, because if they can clear those up, I'll probably by one (including if they can give a good response to FI's cleaning issue).

 

[Taz3]

Here is the email I just sent the company:

Hi, I've got a few questions, and a few concerns. Your website is not easily laid out to compare your filter to competitors, and it's hard to find the information I'm looking for.

I can't see where you mention bypass valve pressure... instead, you seem to indicate that they don't need a bypass valve due to much better flow (and the one graph suggests this as well, if you infer that the sudden drop followed by the sudden peak for regular filters is the bypass valve letting oil through, where the KnP shows a steady flow). So that seems to be covered, but you need to dig for it and then make assumptions. Please confirm this?

The anti drain back valve, again, you don't bother linking or citing the "other published tests" that they are basing their statements from (in the FAQ).

Beta ratio you don't mention either because you use a different test, that you claim is better, which also is your reason for not having a nominal rating... but you don't provide any links for third party testing using this test!

This would all be fine, IF you had good, hard proof... which you probably do, but you don't provide it!!!

The first graph against paper filters has no numbers on it even! And no link to the actual report... just an amateur looking graph that anyone could whip up in excel in 3 minutes. I google'd IBR labs and they do exist as a filtration lab in the US, which is comforting... but they don't offer any info to the public it seems on test results (expected).
The link you do provide... no, wait, you name a website but it's not a link... is just a glorified search engine, it doesn't even have any info on it!! WTF!
Bobistheoilguy is a great site though, however he doesn't talk about your filter at all, or reusable filters, or even filters in general (outside of the forum, which, as we know, can be a free for all of opinions without facts lol).

You provide no explanation of the last couple graphs, and no report or conclusions to explain them either. And they're not even cropped well, so on a couple of them you can't even see the legends for certain axis.

Lastly, I'm concerned about the cleaning issue. Debris is being forced into the filter at a high temperature and high pressure for hundreds of hours... how can a couple spritz from the inside of the filter element and some water sprayed afterward get out all of those worked in, small molecules? It's not like we'll be able to see them all, 40-50 microns (with good lighting for someone with 20/20 vision) is the visible limit for the human eye. So how can I be sure I'm not reintroducing particles back into my engine oil? A third party test/demonstration showing how much crud is found after a filter is cleaned that is still in the element would help clear this up.

I've watched your videos and reap almost everything on your site. I believe you're a professional organisation with an awesome piece of tech that is results-based, and surely you have the research and information and third party testing to show for it... so why is it not available???

Thank you for taking the time to get back to me. I'm contacting you on behalf of several motorcycle online forums (2 international, 1 based in Ontario) where the topic of reusable filters, specifically your brand, is being debated, and these are the issues that came up. Personally, if I can get some good answers, I want a matte black polished edge filter for my 2007 Yamaha FZ6, and it seems like quite a few others are considering spending the money to go this route as well.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Here is the email I just sent the company:

Hi, I've got a few questions, and a few concerns. Your website is not easily laid out to compare your filter to competitors, and it's hard to find the information I'm looking for.

I can't see where you mention bypass valve pressure... instead, you seem to indicate that they don't need a bypass valve due to much better flow (and the one graph suggests this as well, if you infer that the sudden drop followed by the sudden peak for regular filters is the bypass valve letting oil through, where the KnP shows a steady flow). So that seems to be covered, but you need to dig for it and then make assumptions. Please confirm this?

The anti drain back valve, again, you don't bother linking or citing the "other published tests" that they are basing their statements from (in the FAQ).

Beta ratio you don't mention either because you use a different test, that you claim is better, which also is your reason for not having a nominal rating... but you don't provide any links for third party testing using this test!

This would all be fine, IF you had good, hard proof... which you probably do, but you don't provide it!!!

The first graph against paper filters has no numbers on it even! And no link to the actual report... just an amateur looking graph that anyone could whip up in excel in 3 minutes. I google'd IBR labs and they do exist as a filtration lab in the US, which is comforting... but they don't offer any info to the public it seems on test results (expected).
The link you do provide... no, wait, you name a website but it's not a link... is just a glorified search engine, it doesn't even have any info on it!! WTF!
Bobistheoilguy is a great site though, however he doesn't talk about your filter at all, or reusable filters, or even filters in general (outside of the forum, which, as we know, can be a free for all of opinions without facts lol).

You provide no explanation of the last couple graphs, and no report or conclusions to explain them either. And they're not even cropped well, so on a couple of them you can't even see the legends for certain axis.

Lastly, I'm concerned about the cleaning issue. Debris is being forced into the filter at a high temperature and high pressure for hundreds of hours... how can a couple spritz from the inside of the filter element and some water sprayed afterward get out all of those worked in, small molecules? It's not like we'll be able to see them all, 40-50 microns (with good lighting for someone with 20/20 vision) is the visible limit for the human eye. So how can I be sure I'm not reintroducing particles back into my engine oil? A third party test/demonstration showing how much crud is found after a filter is cleaned that is still in the element would help clear this up.

I've watched your videos and reap almost everything on your site. I believe you're a professional organisation with an awesome piece of tech that is results-based, and surely you have the research and information and third party testing to show for it... so why is it not available???

Thank you for taking the time to get back to me. I'm contacting you on behalf of several motorcycle online forums (2 international, 1 based in Ontario) where the topic of reusable filters, specifically your brand, is being debated, and these are the issues that came up. Personally, if I can get some good answers, I want a matte black polished edge filter for my 2007 Yamaha FZ6, and it seems like quite a few others are considering spending the money to go this route as well.

Excellent and very professional letter!

I suspect if they addressed those issues (if addressed) AND made them available they'd probably be busier. I don't remember the site being set up as such but then its been since 2000 since I purchased them..

 

[FinalImpact]

Just an FYI: the anti-drain back valve does just that. It keeps the oil in the filter so the system does not start up dry. Without it, the oil above the filter in oil galleys and the filter itself allow gravity to drain the oil into the pan through the oil pump when the engine is off.

In terms of engine health, it takes seconds of operation to refill those oil galleys and lube critical componets. When these are absent or defective, the engine starts up without its pressurized lubrication system doing its job. This drastically increases engine wear.

As for bypass: if a filters media becomes so full that the media can no longer flow oil it bypasses the filter element and continues feed oil to the the system.

The beta ratio is a test of effectiveness as the filter has contaminates introduce which samples pressure differential from clean to plugged to see how well it performs in real world use.

Given its unlikely anything would ever decay at rate that pluuged the filter, if it did, the bypass would allow oil flow assuming the oil pickup isnt plugged as its the first to be hit.

 

[Taz3]

Just an FYI: the anti-drain back valve does just that. It keeps the oil in the filter so the system does not start up dry. Without it, the oil above the filter in oil galleys and the filter itself allow gravity to drain the oil into the pan through the oil pump when the engine is off.

In terms of engine health, it takes seconds of operation to refill those oil galleys and lube critical componets. When these are absent or defective, the engine starts up without its pressurized lubrication system doing its job. This drastically increases engine wear.

As for bypass: if a filters media becomes so full that the media can no longer flow oil it bypasses the filter element and continues feed oil to the the system.

The beta ratio is a test of effectiveness as the filter has contaminates introduce which samples pressure differential from clean to plugged to see how well it performs in real world use.

Given its unlikely anything would ever decay at rate that pluuged the filter, if it did, the bypass would allow oil flow assuming the oil pickup isnt plugged as its the first to be hit.

Thanks!!! I read in their FAQ why they don't use the anti drain back valve. They claim that tests, external studies as well as their own, show that the anti drain back valves only slow the process, they don't keep the oil there indefinitely, so if you're stopping for any length of time it doesn't matter if you have it or not. That's one of the things I asked them to provide info on, as it sounds suspicious given the prevalence of ant-drain back valves in modern paper filters. They also claim that their highly increased flow reduces dry start time dramatically, much more so than what an anti drain back valve does.

I read the link (I think you posted it?) about Beta ratios, but KnP doesn't use that method of testing, claiming the testing they use is more reliable and more indicative of real world performance. I asked them to provide that proof too.

Oh, and to martini's silly post (SHOTS FIRED)... yes, increased oil flow helps an engine last longer and be happier, but no it's not "needed"... but we are speaking in relative terms now. As for what Yamaha decides to put on their stock bikes, your point is moot... come on man, you think Yamaha put the absolute top spec gear on every model, for every application? Absolutely not. There is always room to improve on stock models. As for money better spent on a handgun rather than a sportbike... *smh*... crazy 'muricans...

Thanks Scott! I hope they get back to me with a lot of third party sources. I think you're right, if they provided all that info up front they'd probably sell a lot more product... if someone's going to pay $100+ to upgrade a $10 part, you better have the proof readily available why it's worth it!!

 

[Dry Martini]

Oh, and to martini's silly post (SHOTS FIRED)... yes, increased oil flow helps an engine last longer and be happier, but no it's not "needed"... but we are speaking in relative terms now. As for what Yamaha decides to put on their stock bikes, your point is moot... come on man, you think Yamaha put the absolute top spec gear on every model, for every application? Absolutely not. There is always room to improve on stock models. As for money better spent on a handgun rather than a sportbike... *smh*... crazy 'muricans...

I never said that Yamaha used top spec gear on their bikes, but given that some of their bikes have gone to a million miles without a rebuild, I am not worried about using a paper filter.

I also find it interesting that the only data you have seems to come from the same company selling this product. I would have more faith in a product, if there was some disinterested 3rd party providing useful data.

I do not know what *smh* means... As for handguns, some of us have other interests besides motorcycles.


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[Taz3]

I never said that Yamaha used top spec gear on their bikes, but given that some of their bikes have gone to a million miles without a rebuild, I am not worried about using a paper filter.

I also find it interesting that the only data you have seems to come from the same company selling this product. I would have more faith in a product, if there was some disinterested 3rd party providing useful data.

I do not know what *smh* means... As for handguns, some of us have other interests besides motorcycles.


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Lol smh = shake my head

Some of their bikes hitting a million miles!? Never heard of it nor seen it. Regardless, your original point was whether it was needed or not. My point is that it may not be needed, but it can certainly help.

If you bothered to read what I've now posted at LEAST 3 times, I've even emailed the company about it too, was asking for third party testing and reviews. So I find it interesting that you find it interesting that you somehow got mixed up and believed I was presenting data as accurate or unbiased :spank:

No way though!! SOME PEOPLE HAVE OTHER INTERESTS THAN MOTORCYCLES?!?! I must meet these people. I did not know they existed.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

As a side note, my Yamaha OEM oil filter for my Yamah four stroke, F150HP, (about 2300cc) in-line 4 outboard engine has the oil filter up side down. It drains fully everytime you turn it off.

This model engine has been around for at least a decade is one of the most dependable engines made..

You can see the black filter in the lower left of the pic, port side;

 

[Dry Martini]

Lol smh = shake my head



Some of their bikes hitting a million miles!? Never heard of it nor seen it. Regardless, your original point was whether it was needed or not. My point is that it may not be needed, but it can certainly help.

Nah, I would get tired of it long before I saw those extra miles, that a reusable filter may give me. It is just not worth worrying about.

No way though!! SOME PEOPLE HAVE OTHER INTERESTS THAN MOTORCYCLES?!?! I must meet these people. I did not know they existed.

Yes they are people that are not one dimensional. Besides bikes and handguns. I also am very interested in ham radio and circuit fundamentals in general.


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[beatle]

I think reusable filters are "neat" but not worth the hassle to clean or the cost, even comparing them to premium oil filters. I don't even like cleaning the K&N air filter on my car, but as it's not stock I don't have any other options.

They do look cool, however.