S2 Crank but no start. Low d09

[jomor147]

Hello everyone.
Fazer 600 S2 ABS 2009.
The bike sometimes cranks but does not start.
- The battery is in very good condition. Refubrished magneto, Shindegen SH847 series regulator with new wiring to the battery terminals, charging voltage 14.3v -14.6V
- New spark plugs, cleaned injectors, adjusted engine valves, synced throttle body, new fuel pump, new air filter.
- I found out that the main switch had bad contacts (resistance was changing when slightly moving the key from 3 to 180 ohms). After applying contact cleaner i measure 0 ohms.
- I had 0.5v voltage drop at he kill switch, cleaned it and voltage drop is 0.03volts (measured under load with engine running).
- I also have 0v voltage drop among the fuel pump relay terminals (red,red/blue).
- I thought i had addressed the issue but the cranking but no starting appeared again
- I noticed on diagnostics mode d09 and the kill switch on, the voltage shown is 11.5v while on the battery terminals is 12.4v. If i am not missing something, this means that the ecu sees 1 volt lower than the actual, so during cranking where the voltage drops at 10.5v (i have a permanent voltmeter on battery terminals - swithed via relay) the ecu must see 9.6v which might be too low to trigger the injectors and i am afraid this could be my problem. During d09 the voltage at the efi fuse is 12.3v. I temporarily bridged the battery positive to the efi fuse and the d09 raised 0.1v. So i m starting to believe i have a grouding problem with the ecu. I also cleaned the white connector with the black cables next to the battery negative connector. This didn't help.
After switching off-on the main switch and the kill switch some times, the engine starts. The last time it refused to start no matter what, but it started immediately after entering and exiting the diagnostics mode to check d09. No issues at all while riding at all times.
AI points me to the direction of checking S6 and S4 ground spiders and the connectors in between, but i have no idea where to check that. Any ideas ? Anyone had similar issue with low d09 and could this cause a cranking but no start?

 

[jomor147]

Today I back probed the ground wire of the ecu. I measured 0 ohms to a chassis screw. I also measured 11.6v from the red-blue fuel relay output to the ecu ground, while d09 was showing 11.5v. I also bridged the battery positive to the relay's output, still 11.6. I also cleaned the ground spider next to the ecu and the ecu connector, no improvements. I can't figure out why the voltage gets so low and if 11.5v at the ecu just before the cranking is a problem or not ( and the intermittent cranking but no starting is due to something else).

 

[jomor147]

I also grounded the back probed wire of the ecu ground to a chassis screw and the d09 did not change.

 

[Gary in NJ]

Great diagnosis and trouble shooting. If you have checked and eliminated corrosion at all of the connectors, then you may have corrosion in one the wires. The most likely suspects are the main battery cables. You can test this by attaching a jumper cable from the battery negative to the engine or frame, and from the positive to the starter contactor.

If this doesn’t find the source, you can create a jumper wire with a length of 20ga wire and solder some pin-like ends. This will allow you to back pin the connector and isolate each of the wires individually that go to the ECU.

 

[tuning-forks]

I'm not clear on what the actual battery voltage is reading when you have these issues. You said you jumpered batt.+ to fuel relay and measured 11.6V to ECU gnd.
If at this time, you move the (+) meter probe to the batt., is it still 11.6V there? If not, there is a jumper issue.
If still 11.6V, move (-) probe of meter to chassis ground. Still 11.6V? That's a battery issue.
If it changed depending which ground you attached meter (-) to, then a grounding issue. This should show as a voltage on the meter when one meter probe on chassis and the other on ECU ground.

 

[grahammarsden]

Have you checked the Starter Relay? The "crank but not fire" sounds like what happened on my bike when the relay started to go faulty.

Try lifting it off the battery clamp and using a screwdriver or pliers with insulated handles to bridge across the B and M terminals.

If the bike starts, you may need to replace it.

 

[jomor147]

Thank you all for the replies
The starter relay works ok because the starter motor is working when i press the start button (apologies for the bad English)

Also the pump primes when i turn on the main and kill switches, if I haven't mentioned this.

I will do more tests on weekend
- clean a second ground spider i discovered ( there are four in total? Anyone knows or even better has pictures of any ground spiders and grounding points in general?)
- back probe ground and red-blue supplies of the ecu and take video of d09 voltage, measured ecu voltage and battery voltage while fuel pumps draws current.
- Bridge battery positive to red-blue, battery negative to ecu ground and measure again.
- remove one by one the above bridges and measure again

I m starting to believe that its a multi factor problem, a little bit from the positive side and a little bit of the negative side. And I am not sure at the end if 11.5v at ecu is the cause of not starting sometimes. Why other times the bike starts just fine? I never checked d09 in the past to be aware of what value is considered abnormal

 

[grahammarsden]

The starter relay doesn't just turn the engine over, it also passes power to the ECU etc. One part can be working OK, but the rest isn't working.

Also, have you tried push-starting the bike?

 

[jomor147]

I had the chance to take careful measurements of voltage drops while the engine was running at idle

B+ --> cut-off relay input : 0.4v
Ecu ground --> chassis ground : 0.25v

B- --> chassis ground : 0.014v
B+ --> red output on starter relay : 0.05v

At d09 mode i had 12.15V on the battery and 11.5V d09.

On the positive side the drop happens mostly on the cable coming out of the starter relay towards the efi fuse ( by sight it must be 1.5mm² which is not bad but not optimum either). I am planning to bridge it with a 2.5mm² cable ( just after the main fuse and just before the efi fuse input.) Another option would be to remove the efi fuse and take a separate fused line from B+ to the cutoff relay's input, which will also eliminate a tiny drop there is from the efi fuse to the relay's input. This the easy part as the cables are reachable.

The difficulty is on the negative side. The goal is to give a good ground to the ecu. If the ecu has bad ground, it gives bad ground to the injectors. I tried to locate the other side of the ecu ground (actually one of the two grounds) on the gound spiders close to the ecu but none of the black cables reaching the spider was it. So the ecu is grounded somewhere remote. Probably on a spider towards the front but i m not sure where to look. AI also suggests to solder all the wires coming to the S4 spider but where is that..

The only option i see is to cut a bit the ground insulation close to the ecu plug and solder an extra wire leading it to the chassis, but the available space near plug is tight so its not an easy job.

 

[jomor147]

It's been weeks since the last update and I am still not sure what is wrong.

I have eliminated the ecu ground voltage drop from 0.25V to 0.07V ( I put a wire from regulator ground connector to the chassis). But this did not make the problem solved.

The problem until last week was that sometimes it was cranking but no starting. After some retries by switching the igntion off and on it starts. Once the engine cut off while in idle. Then one day it decided never to start again no matter what I tried. As the ignition switch contacts where measured with significant resistance in the past (resistance returned to 0 ohms after flooding it with contact spray) I bridged the switch to bypass it and the bike still refused to start. So the igntion switch is definitely not the problem. After insisting cranking I got error 12 (invalid ckp sensor signal). I towed the bike to the mechanic. Who cleaned the ignition switch contacts and told me the bike is ok. Go figure. My theory is that perhaps the starter clutch is not engaging so the crankshaft is actually not turning thus the 12 error. I mentioned that to the mechanic who told me that he checked the starter clutch and found nothing unusual. I suspected the starter clutch (am I using the correct term?) because 3 or 4 times I had the following symptom while cranking but no starting: suddenly the cranking stopped with a strong knock, (like a huge mechanic load-lock was applied) and the instruments turned off, voltage collapsed, which can be explained by the large current increase on a dc motor getting forcibly stopped. When I felt the starter stuck I immediately released the starter button. Retried once or twice and bike started normally. This may happen once in every 10 times of starting but no cranking.

I can't remember if I bridged the switch before or after I got the error 12. If I already had error 12, would the bike start or the error has to be deleted to start the bike? If this is the case, it could explain why the mechanic started it after clearing the error.
I am completely confused.
The bike is 5 days at the mechanic who is trying starting the bike with no failures yet. But I have read a very concerning thread with similar symptoms : https://www.600riders.com/threads/solved-intermittent-stalling-at-idle-code-12.60438/

 

[grahammarsden]

Before you start worrying too much about the Error 12 or replacing the crank position sensor, you should be aware that the ECU loves throwing that code when the battery is down on power and it's been the cause of many a completely unnecessary CPS replacement!

I did suggest you try push-starting the bike, have you tried this?

Also have you tried squirting starter spray into the airbox?

 

[jomor147]

Thank you for the reply, indeed the battery was exhausted when error 12 appeared, it was after many cranking retries. My mind stuck and I did not think of push starting, I was sure that it was an electrical issue. I also didn't think to put my hand at the exaust to feel that the crankshaft was turning or not.

 

[jomor147]

Update: I got the bike from the mechanic. He kept it more than 10 days and just cleaned the igntion switch. The switch I had bridged and still the bike did not start. Today same starting failure.
My car mechanic ( not the guy who fixes my bike) insists that i seems like a fuel pressure problem. And checking back my calendar I noticed that on 12th of February I got the bike from doing the following repairs (addressing a hesitation in revving)
- valve adjustment
- throttle body adjustment
- new spark plugs
- new fuel pump (RMS-Italian)
- new fuel filter
- new air filter
- injector cleaning

14 February I ve got the first video of cranking but no starting

Which means something of the previous repairs could be related.
My car mechanic says that the aftermarket parts (at least the car parts) the last 2 - 3 years have become real crap, almost all brands have gone crap quality so the new fuel pump is a major suspect or the injectors leak after the cleaning so fuel pressure is lost quickly when turned off and need multiple primes to regain pressure.

AI said the same (pin pointing the issue on damaging the orings during pump installation or pump pressure regulation check valve leak) or the air box hose related to the air pressure sensor is misfitted and the ecu gets wrong values failing to adjust the starting mixture ratio accordingly. Also suggests to check the cps for debri and measure resistance and ac voltage (0.5V ac at least). Is this doable with a 100€ multimeter or should I use an oscilloscope to measure the pulses the sensor generates.

So I am once more confused on which direction I should focus, fuel or electrical.

By the way my d09 after addressing the ecu ground voltage drop is 12.3V when on battery is 12.6V

 

[Gary in NJ]

What’s the fuel pressure? Does pressure hold after the system is primed?

 

[Motogiro]

Go through testing for fuel and spark. After that test for compression. Are there any error codes?

 

[jomor147]

No error codes. Today it happened again and got it on video. The "mechanical block" also happened, the one I was thinking it was from the starter clutch. But combined with the fuel pressure suspicion, could it be a hydraulic lock by a leaking injector ? You will see in the video when the lock happens (if it is such) the voltage collapses and I immediately release the starting button and try again.

 

[grahammarsden]

Did you have any luck with push starting?

Also did you try starter fluid through the airbox?

 

[Gary in NJ]

That poor starter. Based on how you are engaging the starter, the occasional lack of response from the starter may be happening because you have overheated the starter.

I think that the Error code 12 may be correct.

I highly doubt that there is enough leakage from a failed injector that your engine is hydro-locked. When an engine is truly hydro-locked, the result is a bent con-rod.

As Graham has suggested, try some starting fluid before you start replacing parts.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

It appears your loosing complete power on and off during your cranking cycle
(as if the key was turned off).

I agree, that isn't hydro locked... You have an electrical issue somewhere killing the entire system.

I'd be leaning towards the ignition, or such, for the complete momentary lose of electrical current..


.

 

[jomor147]

There is a mechanical block heard and felt during the power loss. When applying a huge mechanical load to a dc motor, the current increases dramatically so the voltage collapses, this is a known phenomenon. The power loss is the symtom of the massive mechanical load to the starter motor. I don't feel it like the electric power is lost and the next moment the starter stops, rather the other way around. The question is which mechanical part blocks the crankshaft turn. What you see in this video is not the usual case, usually either it starts ok or it cranks without starting and it succeedes when I prime 4 - 5 times. One in 10 of the failed attempts, I also have this mechanical locking. The other day that never started, I haven't primed repeatedly to help it, instead I was constantly cranking with no success. Without turning off the ignition switch I bridged it (to verify there is no resistance across its contacts) and still no success. So the igntion switch came out suspicion. Then after exhausting the battery I got error 12 as well. Unfortunately I do not have my own space to work on the bike trying starting fluid etc so i am going to the mechanic next Tuesday to check again fuel pressure (injectors and fuel pump Orings) and whatever comes into discussion. Thank you for the support guys, i really need and appreciate it