1986 FZ600 - Starter Re-engages? Whines..

[snow_htr]

Hey all. Got a 1986 FZ600 - Vance & Hines special edition.
Got it running tonight, started right up after I don't know how many years in a barn. Very cool - love this engine already.

My problem is this: after about 30 or 45 seconds of idle the starter re-engages and starts to whine. Very strange. I'm going to check the starter switch leads tomorrow and see what's up with that - but I'm getting a different feeling about the starter. I think the mechanical side is the issue here.

Does anyone have any idea?

Super grateful for any help!

 

[RJ2112]

Hey all. Got a 1986 FZ600 - Vance & Hines special edition.
Got it running tonight, started right up after I don't know how many years in a barn. Very cool - love this engine already.

My problem is this: after about 30 or 45 seconds of idle the starter re-engages and starts to whine. Very strange. I'm going to check the starter switch leads tomorrow and see what's up with that - but I'm getting a different feeling about the starter. I think the mechanical side is the issue here.

Does anyone have any idea?

Super grateful for any help!

I'd take the starter off and examine it.... it's probably got cr@p on the slides the tracks the gear slides in and out on. Or the spring that holds the gear 'out' is broken. Either way, you should see the problem when you take it apart.

 

[fb40dash5]

I'd take the starter off and examine it.... it's probably got cr@p on the slides the tracks the gear slides in and out on. Or the spring that holds the gear 'out' is broken. Either way, you should see the problem when you take it apart.

Unfortunately, it's probably not that easy. It's got a starter 'clutch', not a regular Bendix drive. I'm not familiar with that engine, but at least looking at parts on ebay, it looks like it's gear-driven- my old XJ700 had the starter clutch driven by the starter, and driving the engine with a chain that was between the #2 and #3 journals on the crankshaft. You could just barely manage to replace the starter clutch without splitting the case.

I just replaced the one in a friend's jetski yesterday, and it was kind of a Bendix drive design, the starter turning forced the 2nd gear out to mesh with the flywheel. I don't think that type could disengage and then re-engage without the starter spinning, though, so I'm thinking yours is an overrunning clutch instead. Could be wrong though.

edit: Looks like it does have a chain, but only to drive another shaft, looks like it's outboard of everything else at least. I'd start by taking off whatever cover is in front of the starter snout. If it's an overrunning clutch, and you can easily get it out, you can try soaking it in a solvent to free it up.

 

[snow_htr]

Thanks for your replies! I'll see if I can get the time to take it apart later today. Looks like the whole starter comes out as a unit? Not sure.

 

[fb40dash5]

Thanks for your replies! I'll see if I can get the time to take it apart later today. Looks like the whole starter comes out as a unit? Not sure.

The starter does, yes. The starter itself is just the motor, with an O-ring in the snout that seals to the case, and a spur gear that engages the starter clutch. Usually just 2 or 3 bolts that hold it in place, and the motors themselves don't go bad nearly as often as the rest of the mechanism.

My Yamaha Prompt - Parts Catalog

 

[Motogiro]

Don't most bike starters use a sprag clutch?

Sprag clutch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Free-Wheel Clutches - Sprag Clutch Technology - GMN Bearings

Check out parts 9,10,11 and 12...
Ronayers.com Microfiche Yamaha>Motorcycle>1986>FZ600S>STARTER

 

[fb40dash5]

Don't most bike starters use a sprag clutch?

Sprag clutch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Every modern-ish Japanese one I've seen has, at least. Even the jetski's Bendix-type mechanism had a one-way clutch, it freewheeled in the opposite direction of what made the flywheel gear move out and engage the flywheel. I'm assuming that's what lets this gear move back and disengage once the engine is started.

It would appear OP is lucky and this one isn't buried in a spot that requires major surgery to replace. The Yamaha XJ guys recommended running the engine with Seafoam in the oil for a little bit to try to free up the starter clutch, since it pretty well required pulling the motor to actually replace it.

 

[snow_htr]

Seafoam in the oil? That's a new one to me... How much?
I heart seafoam... Also marvel mystery oil!

 

[fb40dash5]

Seafoam in the oil? That's a new one to me... How much?
I heart seafoam... Also marvel mystery oil!

I don't recall, check out xjbikes.com if you really want to try it. The starter clutch would have to be oil-bathed for that to work. I'd think this one would be, but I'm not sure. They recommended adding it, running (not riding) the engine for a bit, then changing the oil... possibly more than once. Old, worn bearings + solvent in the oil = bad things, if you loaded the engine.

Then again, if it's been sitting that long, getting deposits and acids building up in the oil, adding some solvent and running it through before changing the oil might not be a bad idea anyway. Does that thing have a cartridge oil filter, or spin-on? I had a bad time trying to get the cartridge housing bolt out of my XJ700. Whatever engineer thought an M20 bolt should have a 12mm head and be made of aluminum... well, bad things should happen to him. A 7/8" nut MIG welded inside and out to the head still wasn't enough to break it loose. Food for thought before throwing money at it, it'd suck to have to perform hot-wrench surgery to change your oil filter.

 

[Motogiro]

Seafoam in the oil? That's a new one to me... How much?
I heart seafoam... Also marvel mystery oil!

I brushes my teeths wid it! :BLAA: and rinse with Marvel Mystery Oil!

 

[snow_htr]

Moto - you da man!
I always told my ex that she should use a mixture of marvel mystery oil and cosmoline as perfume but she never did....

FB - heard of such things. Also people use Kerosene? Not sure about the oil filter just yet, but it looks like it's about the same as on my old Honda CB. Sticks off the front under an aluminum cup. I have to get friendly with the folks at the dealership two towns over yet - but then I'll probably change this out. Maybe. HAHA. SHe's a trooper for sure. This thing starts up almost as well as my F4i! and she's older than some women I've dated... heheh

Looks like I have to go back into the carbs first though. #1 and #2 are puking gas out. Prolly those needles I decided were "ok" even though the other two were looking ready to leak. Live and learn.

I'm hoping that this problem will just go away. Does that happen? :S

 

[fb40dash5]

There's a guy on XJbikes that makes a spin-on filter adapter for them, yours uses the same cartridge, so that might be a possibility if the headers have room between the 2 and 3 pipes.

Thanks for reminding me why I don't really miss carbs. Especially since my XJ got totalled the day after I got it running again after rebuilding mine! (grumble grumble) Did ya put half the floats back in upside down?

 

[08fz6]

There's a guy on XJbikes that makes a spin-on filter adapter for them, yours uses the same cartridge, so that might be a possibility if the headers have room between the 2 and 3 pipes.

Thanks for reminding me why I don't really miss carbs. Especially since my XJ got totalled the day after I got it running again after rebuilding mine! (grumble grumble) Did ya put half the floats back in upside down?

Not to switch subjects, but I have a ninja 250 for my fiance.... Ninja 250+Carbs=GRRRRRRR. I will never buy another bike without fuel injection!

 

[snow_htr]

Hahah! I'm currently trouble shooting an EFI problem on my F4i. Trust me - little brass parts are way easier for me to do. :S I hate multimeters. I would KNOW what to do if my Yamaha was running rich...

I did not put the floats in upside down... but I DID manage to forget the slide return springs!! haha - had to tear it down and put them in again before it ran. Luckily I didn't try without them.

 

[fb40dash5]

but I DID manage to forget the slide return springs!! haha - had to tear it down and put them in again before it ran. Luckily I didn't try without them.

If it makes you feel better, I do that pretty much every time I rebuild a slide carb. I even did it with the carb off my dad's LS650, and I reminded myself to put it in before I started reassembling it. I just get in this rhythm of putting screws in, and on goes the hat, with no spring...

 

[snow_htr]

Hey all - problem appears to have worked itself out? I guess teh "crap on the shaft" theory was correct!

 

[FinalImpact]

Excellent! I was just about to add some thoughts.....

Old oil is bad when left to sit (as mentioned up there) the acids are caustic and rust up metallic parts even while submerged in oil.

As for the needle and seat, more than likely they were fine upon inspection but debris has been caught between the needle and seat making the leak you have (rust, varnish, etc).

A good fuel filter and pulling the drain on carbs can dump any sediment out before it plugs up any tiny metering orifices is a good idea. I'd also consider pulling the tank and flushing it a few times.

Enjoy and change the oil before placing it back into storage.

 

[snow_htr]

Thanks Impact... I had planned on that part soon enough.
As I said - problem disappeared! Love that old Radian lump! Now I have to get it all apart again to fix the leak. HAHAHA! Also, the pet**** is plugged because it won't feed enough fuel to keep running for more than a few minutes. How does this vacuum pet**** thingy work anyway?
I'm guessing that whatever was lurking in the carbs was doing so in the fuel input channels. Most likely the remains of whatever the simple green boil brought off the walls. Next time I'll dismount the carbs from teh rail before cleaning.

 

[fb40dash5]

Thanks Impact... I had planned on that part soon enough.
As I said - problem disappeared! Love that old Radian lump! Now I have to get it all apart again to fix the leak. HAHAHA! Also, the pet**** is plugged because it won't feed enough fuel to keep running for more than a few minutes. How does this vacuum pet**** thingy work anyway?
I'm guessing that whatever was lurking in the carbs was doing so in the fuel input channels. Most likely the remains of whatever the simple green boil brought off the walls. Next time I'll dismount the carbs from teh rail before cleaning.

Check your other thread.

FWIW, I never de-racked my carbs, and I used the Napa carb dunk. Disassemble everything but the throttle shaft, put all the jets and metal stuff in each bowl. Dunk each pair of carbs for a couple hours (all 4 won't fit in the gallon can, duh), then put all 4 bowls in overnight to make sure the starter circuit tube wells are clear. Some claim it'll eat throttle shaft seals, but I've left plastics in it for a while without ill effects. You can dunk the pet**** parts too, just pull the diaphragm, rubber selector washer, and o-ring. No small passages there, but it cleans off crud and leaves the aluminum clean.