Bad ide sound

[thisisdylan]

Bad idle sound

Yesterday I pulled in my clutch at about 10 mph and heard a 'snap' sound. Thankfully I was already at home so I didn't have to ride it any further, but now my idle sounds terrible (see video).
The past few days I've been trying to get the front wheel up, so my guess is that it's the clutch. Hopefully it's just a snapped tab on a plate or a spring holder, and not anything in the bottom end. My buddy and I are going to open up the clutch tomorrow.

Any thoughts?

https://vid.me/adMn

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I wouldn't run it anymore until you find the issue. As you noted, look at the clutch first.

Re the wheelies, can you elaborate; ie, 6,000RPMs,-drop the clutch from a stand still, power wheelie, etc?


I've seen an R6 engine partially apart (engine out, pan off) with a clutch plate that disintegrated and then the little parts all thru out the engine actually locking up the gears in the gear box. That was a result of severe use...

Just as a side note, about a year back, another member had a clutch failure and had almost the same noise. I don't remember the outcome but we were looking real close at the clutch basket to crankshaft gear clearances as part of the clutch got in between both. Do a search, you may find it, especially if yours is not so simple a fix..

Please keep us posted..

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: Bad idle sound

Yesterday I pulled in my clutch at about 10 mph and heard a 'snap' sound. Thankfully I was already at home so I didn't have to ride it any further, but now my idle sounds terrible (see video).
The past few days I've been trying to get the front wheel up, so my guess is that it's the clutch. Hopefully it's just a snapped tab on a plate or a spring holder, and not anything in the bottom end. My buddy and I are going to open up the clutch tomorrow.

Any thoughts?

https://vid.me/adMn

Yep, sounds like a fiber disc came out clutch basket and ran between the cranks primary drive gear and the driven gear of the clutch basket. Although the fiber is backed with aluminum its strong enough to displace materials of the drive and driven gears. The driven gear/clutch basket can be replaced. The crank is another story.

Open it up and get some good light to fully inspect the teeth. There will be very minor blemishes but it enough you hear it when not under load.

 

[thisisdylan]

Re: Bad idle sound

Good news. A snapped plate tab popped out as soon as I got the casing off! (see pic) The springs' screws are pretty damn tight, so I'm not going to completely disassemble the clutch at the moment. I'll wait until my parts come in and my friend lets me borrow his impact screwdriver so I don't strip them. I did already strip one a small bit before I quit, so maybe I'll replace it. I don't think replacement kits come with screws, though. Pretty lucky diagnosis, since I can't get the basket out yet. When I get it fully disassembled, I'll double check there are no loose pieces that are unaccounted for which could be lurking in the engine.

Any thoughts on aftermarket clutches vs OEM? A Barnett performance clutch is $170 on motorcyclesuperstore. It might last a while longer if I want to keep getting my front wheel up.

Re the wheelies, can you elaborate; ie, 6,000RPMs,-drop the clutch from a stand still, power wheelie, etc?

I was practicing 1st gear wheelies going about 15mph, and dumping the clutch at around 10k rpm. The throttle is so snatchy in 1st I guess I should try them in 2nd, but I can't get it to lift at all in 2nd.

Yep, sounds like a fiber disc came out clutch basket and ran between the cranks primary drive gear and the driven gear of the clutch basket. Although the fiber is backed with aluminum its strong enough to displace materials of the drive and driven gears. The driven gear/clutch basket can be replaced. The crank is another story.

Open it up and get some good light to fully inspect the teeth. There will be very minor blemishes but it enough you hear it when not under load.

Hoping there aren't any pieces lying in sketchy places. I've helped a friend replace a clutch, and I'm confident I can do it, but I don't want to go much deeper if I don't have to.

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: Bad idle sound

What ever choice you make, opt for clutch disc materials backed in steel versus the OEM aluminum and they should withstand these acts of aggression! :thumbup:

That said and while ordering hardware, you might look for a clutch drum and get it coming too. Beyond that, you'll need to find the location on the cranks drive gear that has transfer material attached and address that. To date, it has not been the most successful venture on this forum (smoothing the cranks imperfection).

Keep us posted... and don't forget to lube the clutch cable with engine oil. These can be very smooth and not snatchy if adjusted and moving freely.

 

[thisisdylan]

Re: Bad idle sound

What ever choice you make, opt for clutch disc materials backed in steel versus the OEM aluminum and they should withstand these acts of aggression! :thumbup:

That said and while ordering hardware, you might look for a clutch drum and get it coming too. Beyond that, you'll need to find the location on the cranks drive gear that has transfer material attached and address that. To date, it has not been the most successful venture on this forum (smoothing the cranks imperfection).

Keep us posted... and don't forget to lube the clutch cable with engine oil. These can be very smooth and not snatchy if adjusted and moving freely.

Ok, I have a Barnett clutch kit with steel drive plates, carbon friction plates and springs on the way. And by on the way I mean taking a long time to ship. No drum on order yet. Sounds like I wouldn't be ready to check out the drive gear. I could give the clutch cable another lube I guess, but it's a new OEM cable with maybe $1500 miles on it.

 

[thisisdylan]

Re: Bad idle sound

Clutch is taking forever to get delivered, so I started unscrewing the springs. I knew they were super tight, but even going super slow six phillips bolts got stripped. Got one out with a stripped screw removing drill bit, making sure the scraps out of the engine, then my drill's battery died (nowhere to plug in a corded drill in a condo garage). I got a few others bored out and tried removing them but they still haven't budged a millimeter yet. My kit doesn't look like it will include these bolts, so Partzilla looks to have them the cheapest including the shipping cost.

I hate dealing with stripped stuff, so I tried hard to avoid it, but this aluminum must pretty damn soft. I also have to replace 3 more phillips screws on the subframe from taking the grab bar/tail light piece today. And I didn't even feel like taking the front fairing off today for having to deal with those nasty plastic screw anchors on inner fairing also just spin and spin right now. Anyone know where to get more of these? I found some on ebay but the kit is expensive because it has more screws than needed. I might just take take get them out and throw them away. Ugh...

So all I was able to really get done today was scraping the old gasket off the casings and prep that exhaust shroud for painting.

90159-06002-00 SCREW, WITH WASHER $1.82
Black Motorcycle Sportbike Windscreen Fairing Bolts Kit Fastener Clips Screws | eBay

 

[trepetti]

Re: Bad idle sound

I am planning g a clutch replacement this winter, so I am watching closely.

Something seems odd with the removal problem. According to the manual, the six bolts that holds the springs to the pressure plate are torqued to 5.8 ft lbs. Not really tight. Do you think someone before you removed the clutch and overtightened?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: Bad idle sound

Purchase this tool (an impact driver tool or similar) and you won't have the stripped issues your having:

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-impact-driver/p-00947641000P

Use the correct bit, smack it gently and it'll pop the screw loose with the force of the impact keeping the bit from slipping.
Besides the screwdriver bit application, its 3/8" drive so you can use sockets on it as well. I have my original tool and its at least 3 decades old, saved my butt numerous times...

If someone used loctite, a little bit of heat from a heat gun will loosen the loctite.


Re the clutch cable, even thou its new, I seriously doubt its lubed from the factory. IME, simply re-lube it so you know it has been done....

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: Bad idle sound

I am planning g a clutch replacement this winter, so I am watching closely.

Something seems odd with the removal problem. According to the manual, the six bolts that holds the springs to the pressure plate are torqued to 5.8 ft lbs. Not really tight. Do you think someone before you removed the clutch and overtightened?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

I too am perplexed; should be 10mm hex head option too. OP , Do you not have a socket that fits through the clutch cover? PS - not all Phillips are the same. Jap's use shallow angle which results in the point of typical bit bottoming before the meat of the driver engages the bolt head which strips both the bit and the bolt.

Also, soak those NEW fiber discs in engine oil before installing them. Minimum of 8hrs but 24 in pan or ziplock bag and you're set...

Have you pulled the header and oil sump yet to find all of the missing pieces? A good time to backflush the oil pickup sump too! FWIW: if you pull the pan and move the sump pickup, replace the seal so the oil pump doesnt suck air. Its cheap insurance... And yes, there is a bolt in the middle of the oil sump. Its out of sight but there.

 

[thisisdylan]

I got my socket set back from my friend, so I got the basket open. The spring screws still felt pretty torqued even when going at it with the wrench. Hearing that the torque setting is 5.8 ft/lb, I'm surprised my drill could't remove it. Just a lesson in using the right tool for the job I guess.

Anyway, I took the plates out. The innermost plate was in several pieces. And a tooth is missing! I only count 11!


So I followed this great guide and got started opening the sump: http://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/36548-how-replace-your-oil-pan.html
It was pretty easy. The pipes took a bit of wiggling, but they came loose and are now polished up! Thankfully the header gaskets don't need to be replaced.

And I found the last piece of the puzzle!


The missing tooth was sitting right in the middle of the sump. There were lots of small pieces of friction plate all over the sump too. My clutch kit finally came in the mail, but now I need to wait on my sump gasket and spring screws.

What would be the best way to wash out the sump?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Brake cleaner..

Peek up as well into the lower part of the engine too. If you have access to an air compressor and the garage is SPOTLESS, I'd blow some air sideways should there be any small remnants stuck (in the oil) to the lower part of the engine. (you don't want to blow crap from the floor up into the engine obviously)

If any is seen, I would probably spray some brake cleaner to the lower visible part of the OPEN engine, again, just to make sure there's no loose pieces still in the engine.

If you can now put all that shattered clutch together W/O missing ANY tiny pieces, you should be good..


The brake cleaner won't leave any residue either.

 

[FinalImpact]

Brake cleaner..

Peek up as well into the lower part of the engine too. If you have access to an air compressor and the garage is SPOTLESS, I'd blow some air sideways should there be any small remnants stuck (in the oil) to the lower part of the engine. (you don't want to blow crap from the floor up into the engine obviously)

If any is seen, I would probably spray some brake cleaner to the lower visible part of the OPEN engine, again, just to make sure there's no loose pieces still in the engine.

If you can now put all that shattered clutch together W/O missing ANY tiny pieces, you should be good..


The brake cleaner won't leave any residue either.

FWIW: I've been running Amsoil Motorcycle Oil and CRC Brake Cleaner does not dissolve that oil at all! However, Mass Air Flow (MAF) cleaner does and it evaporates leaving nothing behind.

For now, remove the clutch basket and inspect the crankshaft for damage (making the noise). Mind you the clutch basket drives the oil pump so make sure the chain is in place when you put it back. The flaw in the Crank Gear is going to be hard to see and few have had luck correcting the damage made by the clutch material going through it. See if you can locate the "suspect area" (tooth/teeth) and lets go from there. Do ALL of this while the Oil Sump is OFF! As stated before; I'd replace the clutch basket and that will get rid of half the noise you hear as the gear surface has damage somewhere.

Q? -> Have you found the crunched part smashed by the crank and clutch basket gears?

As for debris; I'd remove the oil pickup screen and back-flash it with MAF cleaner, install a new seal, clean the pan and call it done. Beyond a visual inspection and pulling out the big pieces, the oil is pretty clingy and the particles pretty small, so I guess I'm saying if MAF cleaner doesn't rinse it down I'd leave it. But its your bike and your choice for you to do what you think is best but I would be reluctant to blow air around as few places are clean enough.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I don't know that I would want to necessarily blow off ALL the oil, just any clutch debris (if any) sticking to oily parts..

The brake cleaner isn't nearly as aggressive as carb cleaner for any rubber parts ( I don't know how aggressive MAP cleaner is compared to carb cleaner) and I know carb cleaner will leave a slight residue.


Agreed point thou, get it as clean as possible whether using MAP cleaner or brake cleaner.

 

[thisisdylan]

Brake cleaner..

Peek up as well into the lower part of the engine too. If you have access to an air compressor and the garage is SPOTLESS, I'd blow some air sideways should there be any small remnants stuck (in the oil) to the lower part of the engine. (you don't want to blow crap from the floor up into the engine obviously)

If any is seen, I would probably spray some brake cleaner to the lower visible part of the OPEN engine, again, just to make sure there's no loose pieces still in the engine.

If you can now put all that shattered clutch together W/O missing ANY tiny pieces, you should be good..


The brake cleaner won't leave any residue either.

I've lost some small bits of the plate here and there. I completed 90% of the ring and tossed some smaller bits, or dropped them and won't be finding them .Some bits also fell into the oil drain tray when emptying the remaining oil from the sump. So, I'm not going to be able to reproduce the broken plate 100%.

FWIW: I've been running Amsoil Motorcycle Oil and CRC Brake Cleaner does not dissolve that oil at all! However, Mass Air Flow (MAF) cleaner does and it evaporates leaving nothing behind.

For now, remove the clutch basket and inspect the crankshaft for damage (making the noise). Mind you the clutch basket drives the oil pump so make sure the chain is in place when you put it back. The flaw in the Crank Gear is going to be hard to see and few have had luck correcting the damage made by the clutch material going through it. See if you can locate the "suspect area" (tooth/teeth) and lets go from there. Do ALL of this while the Oil Sump is OFF! As stated before; I'd replace the clutch basket and that will get rid of half the noise you hear as the gear surface has damage somewhere.

Q? -> Have you found the crunched part smashed by the crank and clutch basket gears?

As for debris; I'd remove the oil pickup screen and back-flash it with MAF cleaner, install a new seal, clean the pan and call it done. Beyond a visual inspection and pulling out the big pieces, the oil is pretty clingy and the particles pretty small, so I guess I'm saying if MAF cleaner doesn't rinse it down I'd leave it. But its your bike and your choice for you to do what you think is best but I would be reluctant to blow air around as few places are clean enough.

I haven't remove the basket to inspect any of the teeth on the crank or basket. I will be able to clean out the sump and basket, as well as remove the basket to inspect this if I borrow some tools. Worried about the difficulty of this though, and if other forum members haven't solved this, I don't know if I could. So, not sure if it's even going to serve much purpose if I open it up and check this, besides cleaning it. Besides the minor sound, which won't be heard over the idle as you said FinalImpact, is the worst outcome of not fully replacing these just shorter longevity of the parts?

There is a used basket on ebay for about $50 that is in good shape supposedly. What is the part number or name of the crank gear? I gained some mechanical confidence doing this on my own, so maybe I could handle it.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

When that plate exploded it generally shot most its pieces OUTWARD. What's generally happened (as read here on this forum) is the large clutch gear squashed some fiber pieces with the crank gear and CAUSED ISSUES. Examine for any debris in there, marks, etc. It can cause damage to those parts..

As you stopped the engine pretty quick, sprayed the underneath of the engine/pan, etc, got most if not all the pieces, I personally wouldn't bother pulling the clutch hub, etc. Its not very likely there's crap in there. Could there be, sure. Could there be crap in an oil line, sure.. How far do you want to take the engine down, to the crankshaft?.

Its your choice, but from what's been posted, I suspect you'll be fine...

 

[FinalImpact]

Lets clarify; basket removal is so you can inspect the crankshaft. When aluminum is smashed between two rotating gears it typically transfers material to the gears but it may displace and/or disfigure the surface.
So, the goal is to find the material and remove it.

If this happened to mine; I'd replace the basket as it unbolts. The crank is the crank. Fix it or live with it and see what happens.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I understand and remember that members bike that DID have material transfer to the gears.

As I re-call, you can see all parts of the outer basket gear to crank gear W/O pulling the basket.

Even checking run out of the crank with a dial gauge should be able to be done as it sits.

Are you referring to gears UNDER the basket, not visible?

 

[FinalImpact]

The opening where the clutch basket contacts the crankshaft is the best viewing area for inspecting the crankshaft.

OP the teeth are machined onto the C/S. So, either fix the blemish with a rotary file/fine disc, replace the C/S, or live with sound. Of course you can cut the sound in 1/2 by replacing the clutch basket.

That said, i would experiment on the C/B with a rotary file and see if the flaw can be repaired or at least minimized! Then do the C/S.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Ok, I missed something..

I don't see anywhere, where clutch material (or anything else) has been crushed in between any teeth / gears etc (as was the other members bike).

** I don't see any posts from the OP about blemishes either**.

Obviously it was noisy(and should have been) BEFORE he removed the broken disc.


Dylan, can update if you see ANY MATERIAL on the crank, clutch main gears? Are they still nice and shiney with no imperfections? If there IS something there, as noted above, it'd at least have to be cleaned up and the engine perhaps dug into a little deeper.

IMO, I would NOT be swapping a clutch basket, etc, unless you know or have serious doubts about its condition. You may very well be fine (once re-assembled) and NOT have any unusual noises, etc. Buying a used basket on the net, you don't if yours is even bad....(If I read correctly)