Brake pads, squealing and related questions

[nthdegreeburns]

I've read through 2-3 of the pages here in this forum area and found good advice. Just want to verify a few things...

• Front brake squealing - I've put about 200 miles on the bike in the past few weeks since I started riding. My mechanic noted that the front pads were close and would need to be replaced soon. If I'm hearing squealing when lightly braking, is that the heads up to replace OR indicative of larger service (e.g. the 2 year piston rebuild, which hasn't been done that I know of)?
• Pad brand preference - Seems to be OEM, EBC, Galfer. I'm leaning towards EBC, as my local shadetree motorcycle mechanic uses them.
• Pad type - Seems to be organic vs. sintered. I'm new to riding, and I'd prefer to NOT have harsh stops with sintered pads. Also not interested in replacing rotors at the moment.
• Where to buy - I'm not seeing anything but semi-metallic Galfer pads on MotoSport.com. Is there a pad part reference anywhere here that folks can recommend based on experience? EBC's catalog was terrible (Excel spreadsheet).
• Front and back pads simultaneously - Is it best to do the front and rear pads together, esp. on a 12.5K mile FZ6 with no service records bought 4th hand?
• Bleeding the brakes - Should this be done when I or my mechanic changes out the pads (mechanic only 'cause I'm new to this)? If either of us push the piston back in (not past the edge of the caliper, I know), will the reservoirs overflow like a car's does?

Thanks for your time. This continues to be a great site for help with the FZ6.

Regards,
nthdegreeburns

 

[lawlberg]

Can't speak much to the pad choices etc - but mine has minor squeal (could fix this by brushing the pads and letting them reseat most likely) but still plenty of braking power.

As for bleeding/swapping fluid - it's easy - really easy. Just get a little bit of 1/4'' silicone tubing, a small wrench, an (unopened) bottle of Dot4 brake fluid and a friends hand will make it a lot easier. There are lots of threads on here that show how to do it, but it's really easy. Some say to use a little pump so you don't have to squeeze the lever as much, personal preference, but probably a good idea. I'd never swapped out brake fluid before and it took me less than an hour on my own.

That said, there's something to be said for having an expert take care of your brakes. Peace of mind for some, I find more peace of mind doing it myself though.

 

[nthdegreeburns]

That said, there's something to be said for having an expert take care of your brakes. Peace of mind for some, I find more peace of mind doing it myself though.

I've reviewed a bunch of brake bleed videos on YouTube, so I feel I could do it myself, including the changing out of the pads.

For the first time, though, I'm tempted to let someone with know-how hit all the high marks, e.g. greasing up the brake pad pin, cleaning the piston, etc.

nthdegreeburns

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I've read through 2-3 of the pages here in this forum area and found good advice. Just want to verify a few things...

• Front brake squealing - I've put about 200 miles on the bike in the past few weeks since I started riding. My mechanic noted that the front pads were close and would need to be replaced soon. If I'm hearing squealing when lightly braking, is that the heads up to replace OR indicative of larger service (e.g. the 2 year piston rebuild, which hasn't been done that I know of)?
• Pad brand preference - Seems to be OEM, EBC, Galfer. I'm leaning towards EBC, as my local shadetree motorcycle mechanic uses them.
• Pad type - Seems to be organic vs. sintered. I'm new to riding, and I'd prefer to NOT have harsh stops with sintered pads. Also not interested in replacing rotors at the moment.
• Where to buy - I'm not seeing anything but semi-metallic Galfer pads on MotoSport.com. Is there a pad part reference anywhere here that folks can recommend based on experience? EBC's catalog was terrible (Excel spreadsheet).
• Front and back pads simultaneously - Is it best to do the front and rear pads together, esp. on a 12.5K mile FZ6 with no service records bought 4th hand?
• Bleeding the brakes - Should this be done when I or my mechanic changes out the pads (mechanic only 'cause I'm new to this)? If either of us push the piston back in (not past the edge of the caliper, I know), will the reservoirs overflow like a car's does?

Thanks for your time. This continues to be a great site for help with the FZ6.

Regards,
nthdegreeburns

The 07 has 4 pistons in each side. Technically, if JUST changing the pads, it doesn't need to be bled at all(not a bad idea though).

Simply removing the two safety pins which hold the main pin and top SS anti rattle pad will now allow BOTH PADS to come out. That SS pad has an arrow imprinted on that has TO FACE FORWARD.

With the cap off the master cylinder (to monitor), you should (unless their seized up) be able to put a medium sized screwdriver inbetween the disc and the pad. Gently work the pad to the outside, it will push the two pistons on that side, back into the caliper. (**the caliper should be cleaned at least on the outside with brake cleaner before). Once those are in, pull the old pad out and install the new one. Now, do the same for the other two pistons and pull out the old pad and put in the new pad. Pump the brakes back with the lever and bring the fluid back down.

Repeat the process on the other side. Doing one side at a time, you likely WON'T have any extra fluid gushing out.

I prefer OEM pads, sintered are harder on the rotors (rotors are alot more expensive to replace than OEM pads), work fine and for reguar street riding, generally last pretty long. With SS lines, the stock pads can stop, very, very hard...

As for replacing front and rears at the same time, its not necessary unless you see the pads very worn down. Some folks use the front brakes more than the rear and vice versa... The shop manual gives the spec's on how thin the pads can get.

With a good flashlight, you can see, without disaasembling how much pad is left rubbing up against the rotor.

Yamaha or aftermarket pads DON'T have, (like some cars), a tab that sticks out and squeels when the pads get thin. The squeeling is likely due the pads being worn, brake specific grease on the BACK OF THE PADS usually stops the squeeling.

On the rear brake, its a single piston caliper that rides on two pins and floats to CENTER ITSELF. When doing the rear pads, make sure those pins are nice and clean, re-lube with brake specific grease. Very uneven wear on one pad vs the other is a sure tell tale sign the caliper is NOT FLOATING and CENTERING(needs attention).

Just as an FYI, Yamaha recommends new brake seals every 2 years. In real life, you can usually get 4-5 years out of them before the brakes start dragging excessively. My 07 seals lasted until about a year ago before they needed re-sealing (about 12,000 miles too).

The cheapest I found Yamaha seals was $80.00 for ALL the seals at Partzilla delivied to my door. At the stealership, at least $120... Its at least a 2 hour job pulling, cleaning and resealing the calipers but can be done at home. An air compressor is a BIG help. Bleeding a dry system, takes a bit of time to get ALL the air bubbles out (there's numerous threads and tips on the forum).

 

[Nelly]

Re: Re: Brake pads, squealing and related questions

I've read through 2-3 of the pages here in this forum area and found good advice. Just want to verify a few things...

• Front brake squealing - I've put about 200 miles on the bike in the past few weeks since I started riding. My mechanic noted that the front pads were close and would need to be replaced soon. If I'm hearing squealing when lightly braking, is that the heads up to replace OR indicative of larger service (e.g. the 2 year piston rebuild, which hasn't been done that I know of)?
• Pad brand preference - Seems to be OEM, EBC, Galfer. I'm leaning towards EBC, as my local shadetree motorcycle mechanic uses them.
• Pad type - Seems to be organic vs. sintered. I'm new to riding, and I'd prefer to NOT have harsh stops with sintered pads. Also not interested in replacing rotors at the moment.
• Where to buy - I'm not seeing anything but semi-metallic Galfer pads on MotoSport.com. Is there a pad part reference anywhere here that folks can recommend based on experience? EBC's catalog was terrible (Excel spreadsheet).
• Front and back pads simultaneously - Is it best to do the front and rear pads together, esp. on a 12.5K mile FZ6 with no service records bought 4th hand?
• Bleeding the brakes - Should this be done when I or my mechanic changes out the pads (mechanic only 'cause I'm new to this)? If either of us push the piston back in (not past the edge of the caliper, I know), will the reservoirs overflow like a car's does?

Thanks for your time. This continues to be a great site for help with the FZ6.

Regards,
nthdegreeburns

I've just been out to look at mine. The front only managed 3/4 of a turn. I last stripped them down 8 months ago which was probably 2 months to long. I need new seals, dust covers and piston rings.
There was a load of gummed up braked dust behind the anti chatter plates which was preventing the caliper from floating and creating the squeak.
The pistons also had a large amount of crap on them. I cleaned it all with kerosene, bonded the hole in the rubber float bolt boot. I will order a kit and get the job done. Also discovered on cleaning the bike that my left fork seal has gone. That's not a job I'm going to relish doing. So fork seals also required.
Sorry didn't take any pictures as it was trying to rain and daylight was leaving.
Both front calipers off, stripped, cleaned and reset in 50 minutes. Now spin 2 full turns.

Neil

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[nthdegreeburns]

So I just took EBC FA252 pads over to my local mechanic to replace (wanted to see someone do it before I attempted to fix the issue myself).

I'm back, and the bike rode fine. However, I cannot turn my front wheel if a) the bike is on the center stand and b) I have someone push down on the back of the bike to lift the front wheel.

Did my mechanic (or I) screw up?

Here's what he did...

• Removed left side pads
• Clean 4 left side pistons with compressed air / brush
• Replaced pads w/ EBC FA252
• Removed right side pads
• Clean 4 right side pistons with compressed air / brush
• Removed right side caliber to check piston action
• Replaced pads w/ EBC FA252

I have a video that's uploading to show how the front wheel behaves now at the house. Wondering if I should've had the guy do more than just change the front pads to resolve the squeak that I was hearing.

I'll post the video as soon as Vimeo finishes converting it.

nthdegreeburns

 

[nthdegreeburns]

Here's the video I shot of trying to spin the front tire after the brake pad change...

[vimeo]67477479[/vimeo]

 

[Gelvatron]

no need to bleed if you didn't open the system its always good to because your half way there, but the tire should spin that is really to much drag i believe the front calipers are fixed so they sit in place and the pads are moved back and forth by the piston and they are held straight by pins so mechanically speaking, the pins need to be greased the pads move easy and the back of the pads should be greased to keep them mated to the pistons if that does not solve your issue id say your pistons are not fully retracting and suggest replacing the piston seals or, just tear down and clean everything, then you have a reason to bleed the system

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

+1^.

The front brake pads/seals are sticking WAY TOO MUCH. You will burn up those new pads and rotors pretty quick... If it was my bike, I wouldn't ride it as it is (it will stop), its just that the brakes are actually partially applied and will cause the rotors to heat up alot and possibly warp..

I have the same exact bike. At 12,000 miles or so, they were dragging too but not nearly as bad, I could probably get 3/4's a spin on them.

With all new seals, 4-5 FULL ROTATIONS pulling as hard as I can. With the amount your pulling yours, mine will easily spin 3 full rotations right now (approx 3,600 miles later).

The rubber seals get old and less pliable over time not retracting the pistons. And yes there's 4 pistons on each caliper, the caliper is hard ounted to the fork, the pistons come out and take up clearances as the pads wear...

If your mechainic didn't say anything to you about the front brakes hanging up, I'd be finding another mechanic real quick and steer far, far away from that one...

New seals are anywhere from $80 Partzilla, to $130 at the stealership. Figure approx 2 hours to rebuild and bleed (thats with using the original pistons, just cleaned up, NOT pitted, rusty)

Sorry for the news but it beats burning up new pads and rotors then doing seals, rotors and pads AGAIN....

 

[pulsar2]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but the front brake on my bike squeals during right turns even without applying the brakes. I found a small amount of lateral play in the front wheel - is this fine? I know for sure that there was no squealing sound before I got my tire change - is it possible that the axle nut is not tightened properly?

 

[nthdegreeburns]

The front brake pads/seals are sticking WAY TOO MUCH. You will burn up those new pads and rotors pretty quick... If it was my bike, I wouldn't ride it as it is (it will stop), its just that the brakes are actually partially applied and will cause the rotors to heat up alot and possibly warp..

Damn. I was worried about this. Questions...

• I drove 5.6 miles home after this service was done. What's the likelihood of damage?
• Could I drive the bike somewhere else nearby to get the brakes fixed? If not, I'll have to try and do the piston repair myself.
• Are there other things I should do (e.g. grease the anti-squeal plate of the EBC pads? brake cleaner all around the pistons? bleed off some brake fluid?) before looking into seal repairs?
• Should I remove the calipers altogether to check the turning of the front wheel sans brakes?
• If I end up getting the seals replaced, will I have to get new pads or should the EBC pads still be good?

If your mechainic didn't say anything to you about the front brakes hanging up, I'd be finding another mechanic real quick and steer far, far away from that one...

Sad to hear this. He had some concerns about the following, but he felt that they weren't deal breakers...

• Left caliper pistons were moving better than right caliper pistons.
• He took the right caliper off to check the motion of those pistons, but he felt they were OK.
• Guy works out of his garage and came recommended for older bikes. I don't want to discount his skills, but he may just not be comfortable working on a newer bike.

New seals are anywhere from $80 Partzilla, to $130 at the stealership. Figure approx 2 hours to rebuild and bleed (thats with using the original pistons, just cleaned up, NOT pitted, rusty)

Did some parts hunting. Had questions...

• I checked Motosport.com -- neither the caliper seal kit nor the piston assembly kit were available.
• Partzilla has the caliper seal kit for $28/each, but they're listed as obsolete and not available.
• Partzilla has the piston assembly kit for $57/each. I'd get an extra set of pistons in this kit, right?

Bottom line -- I can't ride tomorrow due to rain, and it's also a Sunday. I could go ahead and order the seal kits / caliper piston kits to have by sometime next week.

Thanks,
nthdegreeburns

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but the front brake on my bike squeals during right turns even without applying the brakes. I found a small amount of lateral play in the front wheel - is this fine? I know for sure that there was no squealing sound before I got my tire change - is it possible that the axle nut is not tightened properly?

There should NOT be any play back and forth (have someone hold the sterring at full lock) and pull on the wheel (while on the center stand, the front wheel lifted (I use a sizzor jack under the header((won't hurt anything))If there's any motion, somethings wrong, potentially wheel bearings.

*Make sure there isn't any play in the steering head bearings too. With the front wheel still elevated, pull up and forward on the wheel fork. your checking to make sure there is NO PLAY in the steering head. If you can feel play, they either need adjustment or at least servicing (possibly replacement)

As for the squealing, to properly set the axle,

(1) Loosen the PINCH BOLT on the lower right fork leg. Torque the axle to spec(52 ft lbs).

(2) Put the bike on the ground, hold the front brake (the pinch bolt is still loose) and push up and down several times on the forks. The right fork leg will find its own "happy spot" on the axle (both forks are now aligned) and then tighten the pinch bolt back to spec's (17 ft Lbs).

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Damn. I was worried about this. Questions...

• I drove 5.6 miles home after this service was done. What's the likelihood of damage?
• Could I drive the bike somewhere else nearby to get the brakes fixed? If not, I'll have to try and do the piston repair myself.
• Are there other things I should do (e.g. grease the anti-squeal plate of the EBC pads? brake cleaner all around the pistons? bleed off some brake fluid?) before looking into seal repairs?
• Should I remove the calipers altogether to check the turning of the front wheel sans brakes?
• If I end up getting the seals replaced, will I have to get new pads or should the EBC pads still be good?

Sad to hear this. He had some concerns about the following, but he felt that they weren't deal breakers...

• Left caliper pistons were moving better than right caliper pistons.
• He took the right caliper off to check the motion of those pistons, but he felt they were OK.
• Guy works out of his garage and came recommended for older bikes. I don't want to discount his skills, but he may just not be comfortable working on a newer bike.

Did some parts hunting. Had questions...

• I checked Motosport.com -- neither the caliper seal kit nor the piston assembly kit were available.
• Partzilla has the caliper seal kit for $28/each, but they're listed as obsolete and not available.
• Partzilla has the piston assembly kit for $57/each. I'd get an extra set of pistons in this kit, right?

Bottom line -- I can't ride tomorrow due to rain, and it's also a Sunday. I could go ahead and order the seal kits / caliper piston kits to have by sometime next week.

Thanks,
nthdegreeburns

The pads are probably ok, just put a couple hundred miles on them in 5 miles.

As for getting to the shop, if you gently put a thin, flat head screwdriver inbetween the pad and the rotor, if their NOT too bad, you should be able to partially push the pistons BACK IN THE CALIPER simply by speading the space inbetween the pad and the rotor. You may need two screwdrivers as one piston goes in, another comes out.

You'll likely find one is considerably stickier than the others, concentrate on making sure that one is in.

You'll know your succesfull when the wheel spins easily 4-5+ times, vs right now, 1/4 a turn. Do this for both sides. You can now ride the bike without damaging anything BUT SHOULDN'T USE THE FRONT BRAKE AS THEY'LL GO BACK to where you started from.. Cleaning the outside is indeed needed but its NOT a fix for internally worn out (hardened) brake seals.

Leave a lot of room ahead of you and try to just use the rear brake. Of course in an emergency you can use the fronts but it'll take 2-3 full pumps to get the pistons back out against the disc's

Rebuilding the calipers are not difficult at all, it a bigger PIA bleeding the completly dry system (once the calipers are off), especially the over the fender hoop line.

If the mechanic did notice them sticking, at least that's good. I wouldn't stop you from leaving my garage but would warn you of the pending damage your definitly causing to the bike. I'd inquire how he bleeds brakes, you can do it the old fashined way, but if he does brakes regularly, he'll have brake bleeding specific tools (a good sign).

Disc brake calipers, old bikes and new bikes are pretty much the same. If he's rebuilt brake calipers before, he should be ok as long as EVERYTHING inside is spotless. You probably WON'T need pistons unless water got in there and their rusted pitted. Just a good cleaning and they'll be fine. The brake pads should be fine as well. As long as you can't visually see the rotors wobbling (probably won't) they should be ok. Once re-assembled with new seals, if the rotors are warped, you'll feel pulsating when you apply the front brakes.

As for brake kits, from Partzilla (where I got mine) was $80.00 delivered to SW Florida. (that does NOT INCLUDE PISTONS). Yamaha doesn't make it terribly clear what you need on the parts fisch. I'd give the company a call just to make sure you get ALL the seals you need. It should be at least $80 as I did mine awhile ago.

There's plenty of videos on You Tube on the process, a member recently posted such a video.

Just as an FYI, an air compressor with a very short piece of stiff rubber hose, CUT ON AN ANGLE, will help blow the pistons out of the caliper (once the calipers are off the bike).

PM also sent..

 

[pulsar2]

There should NOT be any play back and forth (have someone hold the sterring at full lock) and pull on the wheel (while on the center stand, the front wheel lifted (I use a sizzor jack under the header((won't hurt anything))If there's any motion, somethings wrong, potentially wheel bearings.

Thanks for that info , as it turns out - the bearing on the right side is damaged.
But I rode the bike a lot(approx 400miles), and probably with the bearing already damaged. Will there be any other part I might need replacing due to this? What else do I need to check to make sure nothing else is damaged?

 

[FinalImpact]

Late to the game but a couple of comments:

Where in the FSM does it say anything about applying GREASE to the PIN? Its not needed and will only attract debris. I would forgo this action! If the pads don't float as required its because the pistons are NOT retracting.

Bleed the brakes. If that does not solve the issue, the calipers should come apart for cleaning and inspection - replacement of the piston seals.

DOT 4 FLUID: is hygroscopic, it attracts and retains moisture. Its replacement interval on a motorcycle should be YEARLY!!! IF YOU OPEN THE BLEEDER for ANY REASON. Replace the fluid and BLEED THE BRAKES!!!

I highly recommend a turkey baster or a syringe to suck the old fluid from the MC. This will reduce the time required to flush the system and ensure that new fluid is the only fluid in the system.

Lastly: If pads are NOT OEM pads, confirm the total thickness is not the root cause.
Backing: 3.99mm
Rattle Clip: 0.40mm
Brake material: 4.49mm
==================
Total thickness: 8.88mm

If the pads are thicker than OEM for some reason, it "could" bottom the pistons in either side of caliper and cause excessive drag.
FWIW - I just measured some new pads.. .. .. 5VN-W0045-00, Genuine Yamaha

 

[FinalImpact]

Thanks for that info , as it turns out - the bearing on the right side is damaged.
But I rode the bike a lot(approx 400miles), and probably with the bearing already damaged. Will there be any other part I might need replacing due to this? What else do I need to check to make sure nothing else is damaged?

The bearing or the seal? The outer seal is just to keep dirt and moisture off the bearing. The bearing itself is still completely sealed. Even if the out actual bearing seal is deformed, it would likely have much drag. Can you give some detail on the bearing damage? Did the bearing explode or _______?

 

[pulsar2]

The bearing or the seal? The outer seal is just to keep dirt and moisture off the bearing. The bearing itself is still completely sealed. Even if the out actual bearing seal is deformed, it would likely have much drag. Can you give some detail on the bearing damage? Did the bearing explode or _______?

Its the inner bearing that is damaged, not sure how - but when I removed the front axle, and felt the bearing that is behind the oil seal - it was very loose.
The inner metal ring moves a few mm vertically. Just to confirm , the left side bearing feels firmly seated without and lateral/vertical movement. The damaged bearing doesn't make any noise, but when turning the bike to the right, the wheel tilts a bit, causing it to rub against the brake pads - making it squeal. This also explains the wobbling feeling I have been having lately.

I am thinking of ordering both(left and right) the bearings and oil seals to make it one clean fix.

 

[greg]

did a quick scan but nobody seems to have mentioned it so far...

to stop your brakes squealing put a little copper grease (coppaslip) on the back of the pads where they touch the pistons

I think the squealing is caused by the pressure, and the pads moving.vibrating slightly against the pistons as the wheel tries to move them

make sure you don't get any grease on the pads themselves, or the rotors, or bad things will happen

copper grease is also great for stopping bolts from seizing in place

 

[FinalImpact]

Its the inner bearing that is damaged, not sure how - but when I removed the front axle, and felt the bearing that is behind the oil seal - it was very loose.
The inner metal ring moves a few mm vertically. Just to confirm , the left side bearing feels firmly seated without and lateral/vertical movement. The damaged bearing doesn't make any noise, but when turning the bike to the right, the wheel tilts a bit, causing it to rub against the brake pads - making it squeal. This also explains the wobbling feeling I have been having lately.

I am thinking of ordering both(left and right) the bearings and oil seals to make it one clean fix.

That's messed up. YES, Do both sides as the other side was taking a good deal of abuse. If there is any reason to suspect the bike has been in water, I'd be inspecting the rear bearings too!

 

[FinalImpact]

did a quick scan but nobody seems to have mentioned it so far...

to stop your brakes squealing put a little copper grease (coppaslip) on the back of the pads where they touch the pistons

I think the squealing is caused by the pressure, and the pads moving.vibrating slightly against the pistons as the wheel tries to move them

make sure you don't get any grease on the pads themselves, or the rotors, or bad things will happen

copper grease is also great for stopping bolts from seizing in place

Better make certain "that product" does not degrade the seals. Once hot, it could flow anywhere. Petroleum products destroy brake rubber!