Brake pads, squealing and related questions

[Gelvatron]

Late to the game but a couple of comments:

Where in the FSM does it say anything about applying GREASE to the PIN? Its not needed and will only attract debris. I would forgo this action! If the pads don't float as required its because the pistons are NOT retracting.

Bleed the brakes. If that does not solve the issue, the calipers should come apart for cleaning and inspection - replacement of the piston seals.

DOT 4 FLUID: is hygroscopic, it attracts and retains moisture. Its replacement interval on a motorcycle should be YEARLY!!! IF YOU OPEN THE BLEEDER for ANY REASON. Replace the fluid and BLEED THE BRAKES!!!

I highly recommend a turkey baster or a syringe to suck the old fluid from the MC. This will reduce the time required to flush the system and ensure that new fluid is the only fluid in the system.

Lastly: If pads are NOT OEM pads, confirm the total thickness is not the root cause.
Backing: 3.99mm
Rattle Clip: 0.40mm
Brake material: 4.49mm
==================
Total thickness: 8.88mm

If the pads are thicker than OEM for some reason, it "could" bottom the pistons in either side of caliper and cause excessive drag.
FWIW - I just measured some new pads.. .. .. 5VN-W0045-00, Genuine Yamaha

definitely a must wish i thought of that, could be chasing your tail with too thick of pads. but after that it check the piston movement.

 

[greg]

Better make certain "that product" does not degrade the seals. Once hot, it could flow anywhere. Petroleum products destroy brake rubber!

tbh it's pretty viscous and isn't going anywhere, it's also rated for high temps. You only need a smear on the back of the pads, very minimal danger of it getting to the seals

a manufacturer states it's non-drip up to 1100C (i'd be more worried about your brake fluid boiling at that temp!)

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Thanks for that info , as it turns out - the bearing on the right side is damaged.
But I rode the bike a lot(approx 400miles), and probably with the bearing already damaged. Will there be any other part I might need replacing due to this? What else do I need to check to make sure nothing else is damaged?

Its somewhat rare the front wheel bearing goes but it happens. Someone could have took a pressure washer to the bike and blew crap past the seal into the bearing causing the failure. I don't believe the seal is a sealed bearing, but I'm not positive, you'd know from your tear down..

I agree, replacing both bearings and seals are the way to go. There's a spacer in the middle, just make sure that goes back. With that front wheel flopping around on one side, it will definitly affect the brakes, dragging, handling, etc. Get the bearings and seals replaced then see what happens.

Although the new, aftermarket pads might be thicker than OEM, if they go in with the pistons fully retracted, it shouldn't be an issue. If you can currently see part of the pistons sticking out some, you should be fine in that respect...

The Yamaha manual BTW, calls for 4.5mm's worth of brake friction material (when new).

Good luck and please post your final results.

 

[FinalImpact]

.....

The Yamaha manual BTW, calls for 4.5mm's worth of brake friction material (when new).

.....

I've been cheated (4.49mm)!!!!! Damn them!!! :spank::spank:
Scott, I mention the total thickness as it is not mentioned in the manual as I saw it. Some manufactures will follow the OEM design specifications to the letter while others may not. So this is a guideline as its not mentioned elsewhere.

Also, for those of use who have modified the original design by replacing forks and things of that nature (R6), total pad thickness can be an issue if your calipers are NOT centered over the rotor.
Point: some of you may need to confirm the rotor is indeed centered in the caliper. i.e. One way is to fully seat the pistons in their bore and measure from the piston to the rotor. It should be equal on our four pot calipers.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I've been cheated (4.49mm)!!!!! Damn them!!! :spank::spank:
Scott, I mention the total thickness as it is not mentioned in the manual as I saw it. Some manufactures will follow the OEM design specifications to the letter while others may not. So this is a guideline as its not mentioned elsewhere.

Also, for those of use who have modified the original design by replacing forks and things of that nature (R6), total pad thickness can be an issue if your calipers are NOT centered over the rotor.
Point: some of you may need to confirm the rotor is indeed centered in the caliper. i.e. One way is to fully seat the pistons in their bore and measure from the piston to the rotor. It should be equal on our four pot calipers.

I didn't have any new ones to measure, just what's in the Yamaha manual. Your post above is WHY I stick with OEM pads, I know they'll fit without ANY ISSUES/guessing.

Hopefully, with the new bearings he won't have to mess with the seals and get rid of most of the drag.

Re measuring the rotor distance to the caliper, I'd just like to add to make sure the axle is installed correctly (IE, the axle pinch bolt tightened last after bouncing the forks some so the right fork finds its "happy spot" on the axle)

For the op, make sure you have a little bit of grease on the inner seal lips when re-assembling and a very light coat of grease on the axle itself (you'll appreciate it later, no sticking/rust)

 

[nthdegreeburns]

Its the inner bearing that is damaged, not sure how - but when I removed the front axle, and felt the bearing that is behind the oil seal - it was very loose.
The inner metal ring moves a few mm vertically. Just to confirm , the left side bearing feels firmly seated without and lateral/vertical movement. The damaged bearing doesn't make any noise, but when turning the bike to the right, the wheel tilts a bit, causing it to rub against the brake pads - making it squeal. This also explains the wobbling feeling I have been having lately.

I am thinking of ordering both(left and right) the bearings and oil seals to make it one clean fix.

Can you move this to a new thread, fella? We're starting to mix posts here.

 

[nthdegreeburns]

definitely a must wish i thought of that, could be chasing your tail with too thick of pads. but after that it check the piston movement.

Gelvatron, Final Impact -- this is slightly disappointing to hear that the pads might be too thick. I felt that the backing on the EBC pads was thinner than that of the Sumitomo OEM pads. I wish I'd kept the OEMs now to confirm.

nthdegreeburns

 

[nthdegreeburns]

Although the new, aftermarket pads might be thicker than OEM, if they go in with the pistons fully retracted, it shouldn't be an issue. If you can currently see part of the pistons sticking out some, you should be fine in that respect...

The Yamaha manual BTW, calls for 4.5mm's worth of brake friction material (when new).

Good luck and please post your final results.

I can see about 4mm of the pistons right now behind inboard and outboard pads on each front caliper. I'm thinking, TownsendsFJR1300, that the brake fluid bleed might be the better first tactic (after I get the front pads loose again) before heading to bad seals. Local mechanic recommended it too after I told him what problem I was having.

nthdegreeburns

 

[nthdegreeburns]

Late to the game but a couple of comments:

Where in the FSM does it say anything about applying GREASE to the PIN? Its not needed and will only attract debris. I would forgo this action! If the pads don't float as required its because the pistons are NOT retracting.

I have seen this recommended on several brake pad changing videos. Using high temp grease? If I'm mistaken, I can definitely clean it off.

 

[FinalImpact]

I have seen this recommended on several brake pad changing videos. Using high temp grease? If I'm mistaken, I can definitely clean it off.

Its not going to free stuck pucks/pistons. Just attract more debris.

I think we're discussing two different issues here;
1) squeal 2) drag
Drag can induce squeal as it glazes the pads which can make them squeal/chatter.

Even when there is no drag some people brake so gently the rotors glaze as they never reach a high enough temperature to burn off the pads deposits. This can make them chatter or squeal or both. Brakes work on the principal of transferring energy. Thus bedding them properly is as important as bringing them up to full operating temperature occasionally. i.e. quicker stops from higher speeds.

The other thing is this: pistons work on the principal of hydraulics. Hydraulics do not work well with air in them. The master cylinder has a spring in it to return the lever to full extension. When there is AIR IN THE SYSTEM, the pistons do not retract with the master cylinder. Thus they must rely on the rotor to push them out of the way.

Problem: AIR expands more than DOT brake fluid. So as the fluid warms the air expands and keeps the pistons/pads riding the disc. The longer this goes on, the hotter they get. Add to that, this drag now glazes the rotor as mentioned above.
Effectively bleeding the brakes can solve many "drag issues".

The importance of bleeding the brakes properly is very much underrated too often.

I hope we can find the root cause of this.

 

[nthdegreeburns]

Weather in Atlanta kept me from getting out and getting all of what I needed to do on this brake issue done.

Here's what I DID accomplish...

• Pulled pad spring, pin and retaining clips from both front calipers
• Pulled EBC FA252 pads from both front calipers
• Used wooden paint stirrer to safely push the pistons in each caliper as far back in as possible
• Inspected EBC FA252 pads and replaced them in each caliper

Images from the steps above are attached.

The end result? I can freely spin the wheel now (granted, unless I use my front brakes again)...

[vimeo]67534083[/vimeo]

I've spent the better part of this evening looking at YouTube videos and reading the FZ6 thread about brake bleed steps (http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...u-have-never-changed-your-brake-fluid-do.html). My next steps will be...

• Ride the bike sans front brake back to the mechanic and get him to bleed the brakes, OR...
• Pick up a Motion Pro Hydraulic Brake Bleeder
• Flush / bleed the front brakes myself

Any other input is welcome and appreciated. Cannot thank folks enough for chiming in here, esp. for a new rider just trying to stay safe.

nthdegreeburns

 

[Nelly]

Good luck with it all and thanks for your contribution and excellent pictures. The guys on the forum are great for offering practical advice and solutions.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned but is well worth a look is checking that the discs are not warped.
I only mention this because I had a very protracted problem with my rear disc being warped. It rendered me unable to spin the rear wheel due to drag. And I had brake squeal also. On stripping the calipers nothing was coming up. I had a few fellas here demented with trying to resolve the issue.
The damage was so uniformly even that spinning the rear wheel didn't show any disk problem to the naked eye. It was only when I measured the disk with a digital caliper that I identified the problem.
If your issue has been going on a while its possible over heating has damaged the discs which is causing this problem.
All we ask is let us know what fixed the problem.
(Translate: disk = rotor)
Neil
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Weather in Atlanta kept me from getting out and getting all of what I needed to do on this brake issue done.

Here's what I DID accomplish...

• Pulled pad spring, pin and retaining clips from both front calipers
• Pulled EBC FA252 pads from both front calipers
• Used wooden paint stirrer to safely push the pistons in each caliper as far back in as possible
• Inspected EBC FA252 pads and replaced them in each caliper

Images from the steps above are attached.

The end result? I can freely spin the wheel now (granted, unless I use my front brakes again)...

[vimeo]67534083[/vimeo]

I've spent the better part of this evening looking at YouTube videos and reading the FZ6 thread about brake bleed steps (http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...u-have-never-changed-your-brake-fluid-do.html). My next steps will be...

• Ride the bike sans front brake back to the mechanic and get him to bleed the brakes, OR...
• Pick up a Motion Pro Hydraulic Brake Bleeder
• Flush / bleed the front brakes myself

Any other input is welcome and appreciated. Cannot thank folks enough for chiming in here, esp. for a new rider just trying to stay safe.

nthdegreeburns

For what your mechainic is going to charge and if your halfways mechanically inclined (which you seem to be), it would be cheaper and easier to invest in a brake bleeding tool. I personally own/use a "MITY vac", commercial bleeder (aluminum body, rebuildable) although there are many others and different ways to bleed.

The fluid should be changed, I believe every two years anyway, so it'll pay for itself pretty quick. Should the bleeding not pan out, seals are about all that's left and you'll definitly need a bleeder for that.

BTW, the brake pad looks fine, I'd give it a quick scruff on a nice smooth concrete sidewalk, it'll take off any glaze...

Question, we're your front brakes somewhat spongy before? That would confirm air in the system.

Also, re the video with the wheel spinning, the pads are in the calipers, just not pumped (hydralically) inward?

Just as an FYI, with my pads in, pumped to go riding, I can easily get 4 spins (I have to put a spot of tape on the tire to count the spins). If you tilt the forks to one side, put s small stool/concrete block, etc next to the rotor, THEN, hold a cut down piece of coat hanger(nice and straight) right up against the rotor and slowly spin it. With that reference, you'll see if the rotor is warped as it'll move in and out.

The short distance you rode, as long as it didn't hit water for a quick cool down, I'd think they'll be ok.


If you have an air compressor or access to one, to replace the seals is NOT difficult. It will literally take you longer to bleed a dry system than to do the seal swap... The air compressor is really needed as once one piston is removed, you lose hydralic pressure. I use the A/C to blow out the other pistons (DO NOT GRAB THE PISTONS and damage them)

 

[FinalImpact]

You don't need anything other than a hose, fluid and a wrench to bleed the brakes. You said you read that thread, using a plastic mallet or dense block of wood to strike the caliper while under pressure will help move some trapped bubbles out. Only strike upwards, not inwards (direction of cylinder pucks).

 

[nthdegreeburns]

For what your mechainic is going to charge and if your halfways mechanically inclined (which you seem to be), it would be cheaper and easier to invest in a brake bleeding tool...

Thankfully, this guy is helpful enough that he's keen on my learning how to do stuff on my own. So, I'm willing to bet I could try the bleed myself and then, if I still have issues, get him to look it over.

BTW, the brake pad looks fine, I'd give it a quick scruff on a nice smooth concrete sidewalk, it'll take off any glaze...

This is good to know. I saved $$$ on the pads so I could give a few bucks to the mechanic to do it right the first time. After tinkering with them last night to push in the pistons, I should've done them myself to be begin with.

Question, we're your front brakes somewhat spongy before? That would confirm air in the system.

Tough to answer this -- it's my first bike beyond the Honda CRF 240/250 from my MSF course. They seemed fine to me when riding, but I wasn't doing high speed stops very often. What prompted the pad change was a) mechanic told me to keep an eye on the front pads and b) they had started squealing in the past two (2) weeks.

Also, re the video with the wheel spinning, the pads are in the calipers, just not pumped (hydralically) inward?

Correct -- I have not pumped them back up at all -- so whatever clearances you saw in the photo of the empty caliper, assume that's the same for both calipers prior to re-installing the pads.

hold a cut down piece of coat hanger(nice and straight) right up against the rotor and slowly spin it. With that reference, you'll see if the rotor is warped as it'll move in and out.

The short distance you rode, as long as it didn't hit water for a quick cool down, I'd think they'll be ok.

I may give this a shot tonight.

I use the A/C to blow out the other pistons (DO NOT GRAB THE PISTONS and damage them)

I was wondering about that, and I saw this guy wrap innertube rubber around the exposed piston in the caliper to spin it out with needle nose pliers...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDfNb_9YkcI]Delboy's Garage, Motorcycle Front Brake Caliper rebuild Part 1. - YouTube[/ame]

His tutorial is pretty good, I though, but I defer to more experienced brains here.

I'm ordering either the Motion Pro bleeder valve or going to Home Depot during lunch. Will also pick up some DOT 4 brake fluid (just gonna get Castrol unless advised otherwise) too.

Thanks,
nthdegreeburns

 

[nthdegreeburns]

An update...

• Motion Pro Hydraulic Brake Bleeder - ordered
• 500mL Galfer DOT 4 brake fluid - acquired
• Turkey baster - acquired

Hoping to do this tomorrow night after work.

nthdegreeburns

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Thankfully, this guy is helpful enough that he's keen on my learning how to do stuff on my own. So, I'm willing to bet I could try the bleed myself and then, if I still have issues, get him to look it over.



This is good to know. I saved $$$ on the pads so I could give a few bucks to the mechanic to do it right the first time. After tinkering with them last night to push in the pistons, I should've done them myself to be begin with.



Tough to answer this -- it's my first bike beyond the Honda CRF 240/250 from my MSF course. They seemed fine to me when riding, but I wasn't doing high speed stops very often. What prompted the pad change was a) mechanic told me to keep an eye on the front pads and b) they had started squealing in the past two (2) weeks.



Correct -- I have not pumped them back up at all -- so whatever clearances you saw in the photo of the empty caliper, assume that's the same for both calipers prior to re-installing the pads.



I may give this a shot tonight.



I was wondering about that, and I saw this guy wrap innertube rubber around the exposed piston in the caliper to spin it out with needle nose pliers...

Delboy's Garage, Motorcycle Front Brake Caliper rebuild Part 1. - YouTube

His tutorial is pretty good, I though, but I defer to more experienced brains here.

I'm ordering either the Motion Pro bleeder valve or going to Home Depot during lunch. Will also pick up some DOT 4 brake fluid (just gonna get Castrol unless advised otherwise) too.

Thanks,
nthdegreeburns

I can't open that video. Just for the FZ, with pistons opposite each other, to get one out, the other (directly across from) has to be almost all the way in. Which ever one was the stickiest, get that one out first.

The FZ caliper doesn't split in half. If you can grab a piston with some rubber and a good pliers WITHOUT DAMAGING THEM, that's fine. Their pretty hard. If your replacing all the seals anyway, some penetrating oil won't hurt. Just make sure once the pistons are out, you clean ALL the oil out with brake cleaner.

I'm fortunate enough to have an air compressor which made piston removal a bit easier (still have to watch your fingers as they WILL GET PINCHED if using high pressure air to blow them out).

Good luck with the bleed, hopefully it'll solve your problem... :thumbup:

 

[nthdegreeburns]

Another update...

I have the MotionPro bleeder valve and am ready to attempt this tonight. However, should I pump the brakes to get some of the pressure out of the MC.

Remember -- I pushed all 8 front fort brake pistons back into the calipers earlier in this process. I tried to crack the MC last night to see how much brake fluid I was gonna have to turkey baste, but it leaked quite a bit.

Sorry if this sounds elementary -- I'm new to this, but I'm determined to try it once myself.

Thx,
nthdegreeburns

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re-assembly the calipers to the forks and re-install your pads. Pump them back to normal with the handlebar lever. Then procede with your procedure.
make sure you ALWAYS HAVE A VACUUM when that caliper blleder screw is cracked open or you'll introduce air into the system.


BTW, you want it all re-assembled so when you test your brake pressure, you don't accidentally spit a brake piston out.

You'll want to check the brake drag after your done, if there was indeed air in the system.

I sent you a PM with more detail..

 

[Gelvatron]

Thankfully, this guy is helpful enough that he's keen on my learning how to do stuff on my own. So, I'm willing to bet I could try the bleed myself and then, if I still have issues, get him to look it over.



This is good to know. I saved $$$ on the pads so I could give a few bucks to the mechanic to do it right the first time. After tinkering with them last night to push in the pistons, I should've done them myself to be begin with.



Tough to answer this -- it's my first bike beyond the Honda CRF 240/250 from my MSF course. They seemed fine to me when riding, but I wasn't doing high speed stops very often. What prompted the pad change was a) mechanic told me to keep an eye on the front pads and b) they had started squealing in the past two (2) weeks.



Correct -- I have not pumped them back up at all -- so whatever clearances you saw in the photo of the empty caliper, assume that's the same for both calipers prior to re-installing the pads.



I may give this a shot tonight.



I was wondering about that, and I saw this guy wrap innertube rubber around the exposed piston in the caliper to spin it out with needle nose pliers...

Delboy's Garage, Motorcycle Front Brake Caliper rebuild Part 1. - YouTube

His tutorial is pretty good, I though, but I defer to more experienced brains here.

I'm ordering either the Motion Pro bleeder valve or going to Home Depot during lunch. Will also pick up some DOT 4 brake fluid (just gonna get Castrol unless advised otherwise) too.

Thanks,
nthdegreeburns

at 15minutes lol
typical scumbag americans