Final Impact Winter project; playing w/trigger

[FinalImpact]

I have my fairing here which I cleaned and waxed (no not pulling hairs, the protective hand rub wax!), the gauge cluster, a wiring harness, ECU, CPS trigger and a battery! Sadly - no life from the gauge. Yes, numerous jumpers... perhaps less :beer: :don'tknow:

Anyway, plan was to verify trigger alone powers system on. Maybe it wants some "feel good" from all of the missing sensors?

Oh well!

OK I have a hit list!
Need a Lean Angle Sensor
A TPS and Vacuum Sensor

Bike has 5 bars of fuel, is running at 174°F and air temp of 84°F....
A fleebay TB assembly is $50 and has TPS and Vacuum sensor as well as injectors. Likely going that path.

Then we'll need the Speed sensor. Sadly bikes oil level light is off when turned on but flashes 10x. Perhaps because lean angle thinks the bike is on its lid? FSM says test it and expect 1 - 4 vdc out. I've tried all static ranges and get either error 30 or 41.

Apparently I need some OEM parts!

 

[KB2WYL]

Second one is the trigger wheel. Of course all thanks for this one is given to [MENTION=15974]FinalImpact[/MENTION]. And, to say it first, just like he says, this is at your own risk.

Ok, so when I did the trigger I took a few pics, in case anyone wants to do it and could use them. All steps to getting to the wheel are already listed so I won't be redundant. Once you have the wheel in hand, it's time for some filing. The one thing I forgot to take pic of was the file itself. I used a little jewlers file, and ground off one of the SIDES (not one of the faces), so that all those file strokes would not mar the face of the wheel itself. The marks you do see on the wheel are just surface marks, there is absolutely no deflection there (i.e. those scratches are less than .0001") I was going for 4 degrees of advance, so in my case this equated to taking just over 1/32" off of the nub. Your results may vary, check your math!



Okay, so filed, checked, double checked, good. Now to fill in the back side of the wheel. I could have welded it but I was doing this for the forum, so I decided on the flat peen instead. I figure more people have a hammer and vice than can weld. In the next pic you see where I have taken a hardened piece of steel that is about the same width as the nub, and placed it in a vise (just snug). Then, I put the wheel on the vice, with the frontside of the nub on the piece of steel. Couple taps lightly on the backside of the nub (where we've been filing), and Voila, now your piece of steel sticks up from the vise just far enough to support the nub when the rest of the wheel is flat on the vise. Now you tighten the vise. VERY tight, like hammer on the handle tight.



Ok, get your flat peen. Again, I just used a piece of hardened steel rod. But make sure that the surface is truly flat, and truly at a 90 degree angle, so that you can control the peen.



Ok. Now place the flat surface of the peen on your nub. Make sure you are only about half way on. Make sure you are on the backside (the side you did not file). We are going to give a couple whacks with the hammer, and as the backside gets smooshed down, it will expand outwards. Remember, we only took off a little, so we only need it to expand a little as well. When I did this and the nub ended up a bit flatter than it was before, that was alright because there was still enough there to grip in the keyway very well.



Originally when I took the bolt out to remove the wheel, there was a little play from the nub not completely filling the keyway (probably only a few thousandths, but there was play). When I peened the backside I went just a tiny bit too far (on purpose). Then, I filed the very small amount of extra off of the backside. Now I had the leading edge I filed for the advance, the trailing edge that I flat peened and filed back to fit, and a wheel with a nub that was perfect and actually had to be pressed in to the keyway like a key (nub) should be.



Oh shoot, that pic was after the peening but before I filed the backside back to fit. But you get the idea. It really was a tight, good fit, with plenty of grab, and I am personally not concerned at all about reliability issues. Any of them would arise from movement, and seeing as how it could move originally (once you loosened the bolt), and it can't move now, I'm pleased.


Well, ok, that's it for now. Hope I wasn't confusing in any way, and hope these pics are good. Y'all will have to excuse my alligator hands. The constant wet/dry/wet/work around here takes it's toll on a man .

 

[KB2WYL]

Found a lean angle sensor, 5$ and 7$ shipping. Feel free to PM about some of this stuff, I have PayPal

 

[FinalImpact]

I was schooled! Tippy is only happy with a small variance from the wide open spec. That said if given 1.0v +/- 0.1 volt it will be happy and not throw codes!

Need inputs for tps and vacuum. Factory hardware would be best, but I'll mock something up for now.

 

[KB2WYL]

The Race is on! Ha ha...Woolrich just mailed back and said hopefully by springtime

 

[FinalImpact]

You ride it yet? I know when I got my fuel map dialed in is when it really hit the happy spot!
Im guessing now but it seems used to really pull from 8 to 11 or 12k, now it pulls from 6k up. Although 1st and 2nd are good, its 3rd gear where it comes on hard.


Thanks for writing those guys! Rep point sent! :thumbup:

 

[KB2WYL]

Thank you [MENTION=15974]FinalImpact[/MENTION] for doing all of this work. I saw that with the rep point, I have to figure out how to do that for others myself. I read the other day about how the bars below our names work. I like that it's not the way some forums are and just based on posts, anyone can post a lot. Very comprehensive....I'm glad I finally became a part of it.

I have not ridden yet, the next day and until today has been 15 min sun, 30 min rain (Heavy rain) constantly. I see sun right now but I'm off to work. When I get back, if it's still there....

As for getting the map dialed, I doubt I'll be able to do too much. I will get the trims dialed, but on my PCFC they are wide trims, low, medium, high RPM, + - 50%. It's good enough to keep from having a lean or rich situation that will hurt me. I can load up to 10 maps, but the only ones I have are generic "2 bros with cat delete" "Stock with muffler gutted" etc etc. that I picked up around the web when I first got it and didn't know better. Without a logger, and no dyno shop anywhere remotely close, I don't have much hope for a map so I just leave it in stock mode, using only the wide trims. It works. I mean shoot, I'm already getting wheel pull in the first 3 gears, BEFORE I did the trigger, so .

Since ours is restricted by the gear selection, can we not fool with that alone? Couldn't we tell the ECU that it was in 4th all the time, for example? I would think that the higher gears offer all the power that our ecu has to offer (if not all the power the engine has to offer), so this could be a workaround for some of us? I was going to investigate that more.

Also, the writing goes on. This morning found 3 more ads on E-bay for the R6 flash. All 100$ or less! lucky $%^&$! Anyway I mailed all of them asking if they had experience with the FZ6. All I need to do is find one other person who has tinkered a bit and has hardware. Not that you won't get it first, or Woolrich come out with it, but always good to explore all options ;-)

Loren C.

 

[FinalImpact]

You be busy....
Indoor FZ project is closer. I've got it down to one error for the engine vacuum sensor.
I used a 5k ohm pot and two 500 ohm resistors and the damn thing is happy. lol
It has its 6k total resistance and diagnostics goes from 10 to 110! Ha!

Research on brushless motors says they need a load to act or or they burn up fighting to maintain speed control. It makes perfect sense. Sadly I think it would take 4S or 5S LiPo pack to hit 14k. Looking closer are over/under drive device for dewalt...

Now if someone has a busted up S2 cluster to devote to thr cause so my bike isnt scattered, that would be great!
I need a functioning tach and speed readout. I dont care about the rest!

With this, and a signal generator I can mimic a transmission and get data from this thing!

 

[KB2WYL]

Nice. When I get off work (on lunch now). I will look. Gotta do the spark plugs here too. I can't remember, what was the final result as best with the trigger mod, CR10?

 

[FinalImpact]

Project is presenting issues. Safety cut-off relay protocols to ground are sinking huge amounts of current. FSM doesn't mention anything of "resistance" to limit current and I have no need to buy a bike to have all factory parts needed to complete this. Taking a break!
It has been educational along the way and I did get it powered up w/out errors by faking many inputs with fixed nominal values. Some more elaborately than others. lol


Someone put a throttle grip on this! TPS input. Ha!

Reads as Diagnostic: 01 = 10 & 111. Not bad for a hack!


Fitting for the days end.... yep!

 

[KB2WYL]

well, no such thing as negative progress, just road blocks. Some larger than others....Still all efforts appreciated, and thanked for....So the safety cutoff? Which one, or all of them? Usually the relay itself is the resistance to ground, no?

 

[FinalImpact]

well, no such thing as negative progress, just road blocks. Some larger than others....Still all efforts appreciated, and thanked for....So the safety cutoff? Which one, or all of them? Usually the relay itself is the resistance to ground, no?

True dat!
Clutch, Kick Stand and Neutral Safety all take a b-line to ground. It is their job when all is well. But allowing them that option here and now will melt and destroy things as something is amiss here!

For those who take on the "unknown" let me say that when you have doubt about Shorting or Pulling up a value to say +12v, always be wise. If a test lamp Glows Bright (when placed between source and Ground [this case]) on something that should "not be a load", lets just say you were warned, so don't ignore it!

Point, if warned by a glowing test lamp, don't ignore it and hardwire to gnd OR +12 or things will burn up! So far so good as I headed the warning signs. That said, it is not clear why the path to ground is drawing so much current for kick stand, Neutral and clutch. Anyone have ideas?

And lookie - Loren has a signature!

 

[KB2WYL]

I'm thinking there must be a ballast resistor of some sort...The relays would have to be normally closed, meaning when you leave the kickstand down or the clutch isn't pulled or...that then they become open, and the power to ignition isn't there anymore.

So the relay has the two sides

one that lets power through, or not (power to ignition)

And one that makes the relay work (12V on one side of it, out to ground on the other side)

Most relays have enough resistance in their internal coil that you can leave them thrown forever without anything getting more than warm. They are usually some amount of kilo ohms, depending on voltage.

A more reliable relay, one that would probably never burn out, would be less resistance, and therefore if you engaged it without any other resistance to ground, you'd have a crazy current draw.

Now I Have never studied electronics on a bike very much, but I do know electronics. The side of the relay that gets power from the safety switches, the 12v to ground side, can't you just throw some extra resistance between that relay and the eventual ground? I do know schematics, and things like ballast resistors are often labeled in a way that doesn't look like a resistor at all. Might look like a fuseable link, or look like one of the symbols showing "this wire runs for quite a ways until it gets to...." and might actually be a ballast resistor, that takes the heat instead of the relay taking it?

or not, but I'm sure I can come up with more ideas

 

[FinalImpact]

Upon in depth review of Yama's schematic and the actual components I have, well there is a slight variation. I shall adapt and will have the path to ground through the side stand and neutral switches resolved today.

That said it leaves two options for the next leg of the journey, obtain a signal generator or build a circuit to act like the transmission. The later being the best choice as it will get its signal from the CPS. The goal being the circuit feeds the speed sensor valid data so it knows its in gear and moving! Then we can plot the ignition curve!

 

[KB2WYL]

Randy, Don't I remember you saying before, in this thread, that you couldn't start your bike while in "CO2 Adjust" mode? I was just playing with mine today, and realized I could start it while in CO2 mode. The way I remember it, you could go into CO2 mode, adjust, and then go back to diagnostic if you wanted. When mine was started (after already being in CO2 mode), I couldn't do anything other than adjust the CO2. But, I got to do that endlessly. I discovered that while moving the numbers, nothing changes until you let off the button at whatever value. Second or two later, it kicks in, and you hear the difference. I was playing from 0-35, and settled on 21 for both of them. FWIW, I heard appreciable difference between 15-25, 25-35, 35-50, but after 50 not any AUDIBLE difference all the way up to 126, where it stops going any higher anyway. Maybe (probably) at some point the ECU takes over and you just can't add any more fuel.

Anyhow, double check. If anyone else tries this and can't start their bike while in CO2 mode, then we need to figure out what's different with mine.

Of course, I could just be remembering reading this thread incorrectly

Loren

 

[KB2WYL]

Did you read that last one, Randy, about the CO adjustments? It's probably nothing, but I don't want to forget about it ha ha.

Alright so now that the current set of work is done, I want to explore the timing a little more. I'm going to start doing some research, see what I can find out about how our system works. Shoot, if I find out ANYTHING that you guys haven't discovered already, we'll all be well off for it ha ha. 2 Questions I had to start with, as I thought one of you may already know, and they're not the type of questions easily searched out.

1.) The FZ6R has a stock advance of 6.5 (compared to FZ6 at 5) degrees. Other than that, wheel looks the same. FZ6R also has far less power, but that comes from different heads, intake/exhaust, and most of all I'm sure, tuning. Anyway, can that FZ6R timing rotor (trigger) be used in the FZ6 as a simple, no questions asked, 1.5 degree advance over FZ6 Stock? I plan on ordering one to find out, which leads me to my second question:

2.) The waste spark system and the 2 nubs close together. Did anyone ever figure this out? I could understand 8 nubs for 4 cylinders, and as we can see the R1 has a rotor like this:


I mean this is how so many different older electronic ignitions in cars work, and why you could add the simple rotor like this in place of a distributor rotor and put an electronic in an old points system car. You know, those 100$ MSD kits they sell at every auto parts place.

But then it stops making sense to me as the R6, 4 nubs but 2 right next to each other:

And ours, with 8 nubs, and 2 right next to each other (no stranger, just waste spark system)

And even this one I found, FZ1 (Yeah I know, completely different motor. Still 4 cyl) with an elongated nub:

So can anyone enlighten me. Obviously it's more than "spark now" or "Inject fuel now". It's obviously more of a "trigger", and then the computer decides exactly how long after that to do the fueling/ignition. But the way the motors work, the stroke and firing order etc, there is always an equal amount of time in-between each cylinder firing, correct? For instance, at 5k RPM, if there's xxx microseconds between #1 and #2 firing, there's the exact same amount of time in-between the second and third, and third and forth, cylinders firing as well. Correct?

Loren

 

[FinalImpact]

If you notice the FZ6R uses the same PN as our fz. The difference from our 5 to their 6.5 is in the ecu ROM MAP, not the trigger.

As for the camel double hump, that tells the ecu where tdc is which has nothing to do with **our end user** timing mark alignment to the crankcase as the pickup coil is rotated up from the mechanical TDC mark so these do not align and thats OK as the ECU maps are decoding this. It's not just mechanical. But unlike the r6, knowing TDC does not tell it if it's on the compression stroke and ready to fire. Infact with waste spark and batch fired ignition it doesn't need to know wich of the two holes is going to be on the firing stroke as the waste spark if firing both holes at once. The cylinder on its compression stroke will take more joules of energy to fire that plug and the other is wasted.
The R6 uses the cam to locate the firing cylinder. It has a sensor in the valve cover and a notch out of the cam thus offeing up its position.

Why more teeth you ask? Better resolution. As the power goes up, traction control and having TBW and all the other sensors our old harware doesn't have, they need to know exactly where the crank is to make critical adjustments to the ECU for proper power control.....

Even old toyotas of the mid 90's having obdii used the CPS sensor to determine if the last cylinder fired added velocity to the crank speed. By monitoring spark, fuel, load, detonation, ect.., crank velocity after the each power stroke the ecu can detect misfires if for example cylinder #3 didn't accelerate the crankshaft as expect. That is one of the ways CELs are triggered. Toyota went a step further and used the ignition module (outside of the ecu) to look at the pattern of the energy returned from the ignition module (its signature) to asses if there was spark, compression, fuel, or even a short if that coil didnt receive the proper ringback signature. Here it uses both calculated, load, position, and ignition module data to determine engine health. In our example it begins to accumulate P0003 misfire codes. All of this comes from having proper resolution from the cranks position. Electronics are really advancing engine management!

CO - ya, bike is not desined to run in diagnostics mode. You can leave the wire in place, exit diag, and run the engine. Again I'd suggest moving towards fuel management. The CO mod is cheap and it helps, but proper management offers so much more....

 

[KB2WYL]

Thanks for that, and I will keep reading. That makes perfect sense to me. Yeah, with electronics, it's pretty neat what you can do as far as sensors when your only limitations on events being monitored is that they be slightly farther apart from one another than it would take light to travel the same distance!

And on the CO- yeah, I didn't try to get it to run in the Diagnostics mode per say, where you are looking at codes, but I thought that the CO adjustments were still considered to be diagnostics mode. So I was surprised when I was able to start up the bike and continue adjusting CO values with it running, and hear the differences the adjustments made, in real time.

Ok on the FZ and R triggers. The reason I had asked in the first place was that I could have swore when I was searching (I ordered a couple spare triggers for playing around) I saw the FZ6R trigger as a slightly different part number than the FZ6. Something like 5VX.......... vs. 5WX............ Either I was misinformed, or maybe there are slightly different prefixes to the part numbers, but that's just it, prefixes denoting which bike they were for and suffixes denoting that yeah, they're the same. Thanks for clearing it up.

Yes, I do need to move towards fuel management. Would I need to get the Z-Fi and the logger, or could I just get the logger? I know the logger can log, and then make recomendations about where to go from the map you were using. I know it wouldn't be automatic "one button" like with the Z-Fi, where you can just "accept" and "save". But not spending all the $ at once, could I get the logger and still be able to compare it's results with one of the maps I'm running now? With the PCFC I have, you CAN use the software to go in and edit maps cell by cell just like in the pics you post of your Z-fi software....

Loren

 

[FinalImpact]

My mistake.... rotor is not the same PN...
09 FZ6r
20S-81673-00-00 ROTOR
Notice where used....

FZ6 where used....
On 600cc.org there is a thread on this topic and you'll see my posts in there. Anyway, they could change the plating or package and renumber by it still has the same physical specification. The r is half the cost..
It looks identical.... Maybe it is 1.5° advanced!
5VX-81673-00-00 YAMAHA ROTOR

There are pros and cons for both bazzaz and PC.... likely a new thread! Its easy to edit both maps, both GUI are a free download and allow you to import maps. The bazz controller holds two maps and with a toggle switch you can run either and I got it for cheap. As I know it, the PC holds ten maps but you need your laptop to switch them. Bazz can toggle between party mode and economy with a switch.
Link to thread mentioned is here.... 600cc.org Changing Timing

Download them and play. I think the PC stuff has better resolution (more data points) but neither are ideal in regards to building your own maps as they take **anything** logged and try to average it. My point here is Not all results are valid inputs and letting the hardware auto-tune / rescale your map can lead you down a variety of rabbit holes with no end in site.

Perhaps start a new thread or dredge up the one with maps and data in it. Search for JJD952 tuning or fueling...

 

[KB2WYL]

I will start a new thread on that, thanks...

Back to trigger. I ordered one of those R triggers, so we will see if it is 1.5 degrees advanced, or has any other discernible differences. Thanks again for the info,

Loren