Front wheel lock-up

[payneib]

The lack of training, and lack of quality in the training that is there, in the states never fails to astonish me.

 

[Dry Martini]

The lack of training, and lack of quality in the training that is there, in the states never fails to astonish me.

There is plenty of quality training in the states. It is called the MSF. People just have to sign up for it.

Regardless of training, there are people out there who should not be on a motorcycle.


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[Monica A]

There is plenty of quality training in the states. It is called the MSF. People just have to sign up for it.

Regardless of training, there are people out there who should not be on a motorcycle.


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I agree. I'm on another ladies only forum and a majority of the ladies ride cruisers (H-D mostly) and I can't believe some of the advice they give:
-never use your front brake (WTF?)
-dropping your bike, when coming to a stop, just happens. (no, it's called putting your feet down in front of you)
-brake to a very slow speed and turn towards the direction you want to go when approaching a curve. (again, WTF???) (in other words, don't countersteer).
-Always stay in tight formation when riding in the twisties. (we always ride staggered when riding in a group or just the two of us but when we get to the twisties we string out so we can use the full lane to get the proper approach to the corner)
-more crap like that.
-What the heck does Harley teach the new riders at their course? Doesn't seem like to me it's valid information. Many of the ladies can't pass the riding test after taking the Harley course. I passed my first attempt after the MSF course with flying colors. My 16 year old son passed with a higher score than all of the H-D riders who were taking the course again after riding 20+ years. My son had been riding dirt bikes since age 7 with his dad. I rode dirt a little bit but I didn't like it too much.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

I agree. I'm on another ladies only forum and a majority of the ladies ride cruisers (H-D mostly) and I can't believe some of the advice they give:
-never use your front brake (WTF?)
-dropping your bike, when coming to a stop, just happens. (no, it's called putting your feet down in front of you)
-brake to a very slow speed and turn towards the direction you want to go when approaching a curve. (again, WTF???) (in other words, don't countersteer).
-Always stay in tight formation when riding in the twisties. (we always ride staggered when riding in a group or just the two of us but when we get to the twisties we string out so we can use the full lane to get the proper approach to the corner)
-more crap like that.
-What the heck does Harley teach the new riders at their course? Doesn't seem like to me it's valid information. Many of the ladies can't pass the riding test after taking the Harley course. I passed my first attempt after the MSF course with flying colors. My 16 year old son passed with a higher score than all of the H-D riders who were taking the course again after riding 20+ years. My son had been riding dirt bikes since age 7 with his dad. I rode dirt a little bit but I didn't like it too much.

If I'm not mistaken, the Harley's Riders Edge course uses the MSF curriculum, although to become a Rider's Edge Coach, you have to through their own training in addition to being an MSF instructor. The training, written and skills evaluation is exactly the same except they add an extra 1/2 day to show off their show room and service department, a total sales pitch. And they charge twice as much, but that's Harley, they charge whatever they want.

 

[Dry Martini]

If I'm not mistaken, the Harley's Riders Edge course uses the MSF curriculum, although to become a Rider's Edge Coach, you have to through their own training in addition to being an MSF instructor. The training, written and skills evaluation is exactly the same except they add an extra 1/2 day to show off their show room and service department, a total sales pitch. And they charge twice as much, but that's Harley, they charge whatever they want.

They may "use" the MSF curriculum to make their program sound good, but none of the stuff Monica A mentioned is MSF material.

The "never use your front brake" mantra is from bicycle riding. Grabbing too much front brake is a good way to land on your back. This has been transferred to motorcycles. I am old enough to remember hearing that mantra being repeating back in the 70s. Ever notice that a lot (most?) 70s era choppers did not have a front brake?



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[VEGASRIDER]

I can't speak for Monica or her rider friends, but I'm going out on a limb that her friends who took the Rider's Edge Class may have misunderstood the instuctions or were simply not paying attention. There are times during class where we may suggest not to use the front brake, such as when a rider is doing a slow tight turn, when the handlebars are in full locked position.

Slowing down before turning is correct. And yes, for some students slowing down to a very slow speed, even if it's walking speed is necessaryand is the very first requirement to get them to learn the basic fundamentals of cornering.
Slow, Look, Press and Roll!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I can't speak for Monica or her rider friends, but I'm going out on a limb that her friends who took the Rider's Edge Class may have misunderstood the instuctions or were simply not paying attention. There are times during class where we may suggest not to use the front brake, such as when a rider is doing a slow tight turn, when the handlebars are in full locked position.

Slowing down before turning is correct. And yes, for some students slowing down to a very slow speed, even if it's walking speed is necessaryand is the very first requirement to get them to learn the basic fundamentals of cornering.
Slow, Look, Press and Roll!

+1^^

I would add that for someone that may be literally learning how to ride, there's alot of information that can easily be NOT absorbed or missed.

As many (very quailified) do here, passing on proper riding techniques, the "do's and don't's" and the amount of experianced riders contributing, is absolutly invaluable.

 

[Monica A]

If I'm not mistaken, the Harley's Riders Edge course uses the MSF curriculum, although to become a Rider's Edge Coach, you have to through their own training in addition to being an MSF instructor. The training, written and skills evaluation is exactly the same except they add an extra 1/2 day to show off their show room and service department, a total sales pitch. And they charge twice as much, but that's Harley, they charge whatever they want.

I think I was misunderstood. I don't agree with and I wasn't taught at my MSF course the things I mentioned in my post. I was stating that these are "advice" that these ladies are giving each other after taking the Riders Edge course. I don't know if they just aren't paying attention or what, but my fear is that some of this "advice" can be very dangerous.

And yes, I agree, to slow down to the appropriate speed for the corner, but you can go too slow for a corner. Do you also agree to turn with the corner and not counter-steer. I once mentioned counter-steering and no one knew what that was except the sportbike riders.
I'm not surprised that they build in a long time to do self promotion of their product and service. Otherwise, who would pay that much money for their product. Oh wait, it's not about the ride, it's about the appearance. "I ride a Harley". Who gives an "F"?!?!?!

 

[VEGASRIDER]

I agree, if you go too slow around a corner the effect of counter steering, or the actual pressing of the handlebars is lost. That's why as the range exercises progresses, the focus on cornering and speed is emphasized. And part of the final skills evaluation, riders are actually penalized for going too slow around a corner. But we also stress the importance of slowing down to a comfortable entry speed, and there is no penalty for how much you slow down, but there are consequences for blowing the turn or even rolling off the throttle thru the turn. Based from what your friends are saying, I'm surprised they past. And if they did, you should encourage them to take an advanced rider course. Not with Harley but with the Nevada Rider Program, the state sponsored program that I use to teach in Nevada. Much cheaper too.

 

[Dry Martini]

I agree, if you go too slow around a corner the effect of counter steering, or the actual pressing of the handlebars is lost. That's why as the range exercises progresses, the focus on cornering and speed is emphasized. And part of the final skills evaluation, riders are actually penalized for going too slow around a corner. But we also stress the importance of slowing down to a comfortable entry speed, and there is no penalty for how much you slow down, but there are consequences for blowing the turn or even rolling off the throttle thru the turn.

Why would you penalize someone from rolling off the throttle in a turn? In Keith Code's class they teach downshifting to scrub speed and closing the throttle as you enter the turn, though I did keep mine cracked open a little.


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[raja777m]

wrong post,wrong quote.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Why would you penalize someone from rolling off the throttle in a turn? In Keith Code's class they teach downshifting to scrub speed and closing the throttle as you enter the turn, though I did keep mine cracked open a little.


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Remember, you are teaching the basic fundamentals of cornering, it's not an advanced class. But rolling off the throttle or a choppy throttle creating a deceleration while cornering will destablize the bike by shifting the weight of the bike forward. What makes cornering easier is by applying a gradual increasing throttle whle cornering, creating more weight to the rear of the bike, resulting in more traction and making the bike easier to lean. This can only be accomplished if you have a slow of enough entry speed prior to the corner. It's basic motorcycle dynamics. We want the rider to continually press and if needed, press harder, not the opposite. Very critical area, we don't want the rider to swing wide, crossing into the other lane, a mistake we see too often when cornering in the real world in which the consequences could be deadly.

 

[2007Z6ALL-LED]

Use both brake! that's it - it will take sometimes to practice it right so your muscle remember how much force to squeeze brake lever and to press the brake pedal.

I'm practicing it every day, 2hr/day during my commute of 70miles/day round trip.

Because of using two brake, I skidded almost 5 feet, two wheel skidded while my rear locked and my front stopped rolling but skidding!! the result was no crash and I was still on my bike seat, relieved and continued on my path.

i will continue using two brake at any situation! However in slow speed like bumper to bumper traffic, stop&go 5-10mph, I will use rear brake to slow the bike and to filter between cars!

 

[FinalImpact]

Q? An at HD training class, they use HD's, yes?
So, riding an HD cruiser vs a sport bike (or course provided 125/250cc) I'd guess their speeds are lower and counter steer is not an option at low speeds due to the design of HD chassis?? Just a thought.

As for throttle - same thing - big lungs on those HD if you did accelerate briskly and chop the throttle into a corner you could easily lock the rear tire. Due to engine braking, being 400+ lbs more weight, it'd be easy to dump one right there on spot.

Riding an HD is a very different experience at low speed and nothing like a little dual sport 125cc you can sling about at will.

Point: I can see how some of the comments come to the surface from HD training schools.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Use both brake! that's it - it will take sometimes to practice it right so your muscle remember how much force to squeeze brake lever and to press the brake pedal.

I'm practicing it every day, 2hr/day during my commute of 70miles/day round trip.

Because of using two brake, I skidded almost 5 feet, two wheel skidded while my rear locked and my front stopped rolling but skidding!! the result was no crash and I was still on my bike seat, relieved and continued on my path.
!

FYI....if your rear brake locks up, and if you reapply your rear brake without skidding the second time, you will decrease your stopping distance versus just having the rear tire locked up the whole way. You just have to be careful that your rear tire is still inline with your front, otherwise releasing the rear brake while the tire is still locked up could result in a high side.

Q? An at HD training class, they use HD's, yes?
.

Training bikes are usually around 250cc, sometimes 125's, just depends on the site. Buell's are popular training bikes amongst the HD training sites. One of my favorite training bikes are the Honda Rebels

 

[Dry Martini]

Remember, you are teaching the basic fundamentals of cornering, it's not an advanced class. But rolling off the throttle or a choppy throttle creating a deceleration while cornering will destablize the bike by shifting the weight of the bike forward. What makes cornering easier is by applying a gradual increasing throttle whle cornering, creating more weight to the rear of the bike, resulting in more traction and making the bike easier to lean. This can only be accomplished if you have a slow of enough entry speed prior to the corner. It's basic motorcycle dynamics. We want the rider to continually press and if needed, press harder, not the opposite. Very critical area, we don't want the rider to swing wide, crossing into the other lane, a mistake we see too often when cornering in the real world in which the consequences could be deadly.

Yes chopping the throttle while in the turn is not good. I was referring to downshifting multiple gears to scrub off speed and close throttle before you enter the turn.

But as you say this is a beginner course, so you want to keep things simple.


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[payneib]

FYI....if your rear brake locks up, and if you reapply your rear brake without skidding the second time, you will decrease your stopping distance versus just having the rear tire locked up the whole way. You just have to be careful that your rear tire is still inline with your front, otherwise releasing the rear brake while the tire is still locked up could result in a high side.




Training bikes are usually around 250cc, sometimes 125's, just depends on the site. Buell's are popular training bikes amongst the HD training sites. One of my favorite training bikes are the Honda Rebels

Does that licence you to ride anything? Or is it not even a licence requirement?

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Yes chopping the throttle while in the turn is not good. I was referring to downshifting multiple gears to scrub off speed and close throttle before you enter the turn.

But as you say this is a beginner course, so you want to keep things simple.




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Yeah, it's definitely not track day material training.

Does that licence you to ride anything? Or is it not even a licence requirement?

Once you get your endorsement, essentially your motorcycle license, there are no restrictions here in the states. You can buy a liter bike as your first bike if you like. Depending on the states, there are helmet requirements, but many states are optional. But usually these states will have a lid requirement if you are under a certain age.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Once you get your endorsement, essentially your motorcycle license, there are no restrictions here in the states. You can buy a liter bike as your first bike if you like. Depending on the states, there are helmet requirements, but many states are optional. But usually these states will have a lid requirement if you are under a certain age.

In Florida, to NOT WEAR A HELMET, you have to be at least 21 and have $10,000 in health insurance.

Over 21, still $10,000 in health insurance.

Eye protection, (and a windshield does NOT count) is mandatory, period..

 

[Dry Martini]

In the state of South Carolina, over 21, and you do not need a helmet, or a minimum amount of medical insurance. This ensures that there are always plenty of donor organs available, to those that need them.


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