Intermittent Death - Everything Else Works Fine ? !

[TommyT]

https://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-general-discussion/58142-fz6-wont-start.html

Is it worth me cracking the starter relay open tomorrow and having a look? I did a little searching around and it seems the chap from the thread above was experiencing similar issues. Perhaps there is a loose connection in the starter relay? Would this cause the fuel pump to fail and prevent further attempts to start up?

Heavy breathing intensifies

 

[Motogiro]

https://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-general-discussion/58142-fz6-wont-start.html

Is it worth me cracking the starter relay open tomorrow and having a look? I did a little searching around and it seems the chap from the thread above was experiencing similar issues. Perhaps there is a loose connection in the starter relay? Would this cause the fuel pump to fail and prevent further attempts to start up?

Heavy breathing intensifies

Read this from that same thread you referenced. https://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-general-discussion/58142-fz6-wont-start.html#post636691

This is what his problem was. He sent me his bad unit and I opened it up. It was full of moisture as if the bike had been submerged under water for a time. There was a moldy smell inside the unit and it was dewy to the touch with a coating if silt on all the components. The member replaced the unit and the bike ran fine after that.

This unit is called the, "Starting circuit, cut off relay" It's a module that must have specific logic for the starter relay (a separate relay) to operate as well as the fuel injection and fuel pump. It looks at the neutral switch the clutch switch and the side stand switch to see that all are in sync with the safety protocols. If any of the rules are broken it stops the bike.

The starter relay is a separate relay all together and is not allowed to operate if the, "Starting circuit, cut-off relay" module does not allow it to operate. If this is a possible conclusion given all safety switches seem to be operating normally then the module may be internittant and doing false triggers to shut the bike down. First go to this module and insure it is fully plugged in and inspect the pins for any corrosion.

Here #24 on the fiche: https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/yam/50045b8df8700209bc794141/electrical-2

 

[Motogiro]

This what the module looks like. Under the left side pod.

 

[twobob1]

Ok.....
multiple stops and traffic lights and also long straights of 120mph +

As a fellow Londoner, intrigued as to where you go to get to 120+ mph? (Private land track around near the area you think of course.) I can get that pretty easy on a long straight but its having the balls to doit knowing other things could be watching and id have to be on the outskirts of London a good 10 miles out (on a track!lol). I hope you get it sorted mate.

 

[TommyT]

As a fellow Londoner, intrigued as to where you go to get to 120+ mph? (Private land track around near the area you think of course.) I can get that pretty easy on a long straight but its having the balls to doit knowing other things could be watching and id have to be on the outskirts of London a good 10 miles out (on a track!lol). I hope you get it sorted mate.

I'm out West, so the outskirts you could definitely say. There's motorway out here with little to no enforcement. That plus late night = safe bet. You should hit it up!

 

[TommyT]

This what the module looks like. Under the left side pod.

Is there any way of me seeing inside this module without completely destroying it?

I tested the clip for continuity and got the following results:

 

[TommyT]

Is there any way of me seeing inside this module without completely destroying it?

I tested the clip for continuity and got the following results:

Alternatively, how do I test this with a multimeter? presumably there is only a positive signal when current is applied through 2 other pins?

 

[Motogiro]

Is there any way of me seeing inside this module without completely destroying it?

I tested the clip for continuity and got the following results:

I don't know of a test for continuity for that plug. I think you'd be introducing potentials that are not recommended. If you open the unit what would you be looking for? I believe there is a picture of that unit opened or a link to it in that other thread.

 

[TommyT]

I don't know of a test for continuity for that plug. I think you'd be introducing potentials that are not recommended. If you open the unit what would you be looking for? I believe there is a picture of that unit opened or a link to it in that other thread.

I guess I would have been looking for signs of failure, see if there is any solder I could repair or at least confirm that the unit is/isnt to blame. While I was in this area I tested the harnesses for the relays there - the small relay closest to the SSC/O is not getting any reading from battery positive to the yellow/black stripe wire. IÂ’m just trying to figure out what that wire is for and if this bears any relevence...

 

[Motogiro]

There are conditions you could look for if that unit were in total failure but it is intermittent. I would try to bypass the sidestand switch first so that you totally prove you're not experiencing an intermittent failure of that safety protocol.

 

[TommyT]

There are conditions you could look for if that unit were in total failure but it is intermittent. I would try to bypass the sidestand switch first so that you totally prove you're not experiencing an intermittent failure of that safety protocol.

Ok I’ll give that a bash - the problem is occurring in Neutral however, would this not already have proved that? I guess there’s no harm in trying though. Whats the best way to bypass?

 

[Motogiro]

Ok I’ll give that a bash - the problem is occurring in Neutral however, would this not already have proved that? I guess there’s no harm in trying though. Whats the best way to bypass?

Yes, that is correct. If it occurs in neutral it's probably not the side stand switch. When this problem occurs is the starter also non operational at the same time? It still may be this unit but you'll have to totally eliminate power loss through the ignition switch to step through the trouble shooting. It's always a simple problem but when it's intermittent it's a bear to track down. Stick with it and you'll nail it!

 

[TommyT]

Yes, that is correct. If it occurs in neutral it's probably not the side stand switch. When this problem occurs is the starter also non operational at the same time? It still may be this unit but you'll have to totally eliminate power loss through the ignition switch to step through the trouble shooting. It's always a simple problem but when it's intermittent it's a bear to track down. Stick with it and you'll nail it!

Really losing my mind here guys...

Last night I painstakingly took apart the bike for about the 10th time, pulled out the killswitch loom and rewired and resoldered the connection. tested it with the meter, whilst wobbling in all sorts of directions, getting a perfect reading throughout. Built it back up, it started no problem. Gave it some healthy revs (neighbours love me as it was 2am) with not even a hint of power loss of any kind.

Woke up this morning happy as Larry, get my stuff together and went to hit the road - it died again after being on for 5 seconds, however as soon as it died, the fuel pump primed again, allowing me to start it again. This happened 2 or 3 times before it stayed on, so I went to drive off. Down the driveway it was kind of bucking, you could see it was trying to die but keeping positive revs was almost keeping it alive. The second I let go of the accelerator it lost power, dash still on, and now will not start again.

To date this is the work/tests that have taken place, which have not solved the problem:

- Killswitch loom inspected, rewired, resoldered, harness pulled apart and connections cleaned, also attempted bypassing
- Fuses all inspected, tested with new ones
- Battery tested
- Sidestand switch inspected and also attempted bypassing
- Alarm grounding wire cleaned up, re-grounded. Also attempted bypassing
- Starting circuit cutoff relay harness tested, relay pins cleaned
- Various harnesses tested for continuity
- ECU harness & pins inspected

The one thing I haven't done yet is replaced the starting circuit cutoff relay - before I go ahead and spend the money on a new one... Anyone got some ideas to put an end to my misery?

To be clear, the bike powers on fine, all lights working, no immobiliser problems, however the fuel pump does not prime, and when the ignition switch is pressed it doesn't turn over or even click.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Quote: "also attempted by-passing" , referring to the kill switch.


Just to be clear, did you literally BY-PASS the RED kill switch, tying the lines together, switch completely out of the equation?

 

[TommyT]

Quote: "also attempted by-passing" , referring to the kill switch.


Just to be clear, did you literally BY-PASS the RED kill switch, tying the lines together, switch completely out of the equation?

Yeah that one - i even rebuilt the damn thing twice already lol.

My old man is gonna have a look tomorrow morning, already he is suggesting to just buy a mew relay and swap it out see if there’s any joy.

One thing - the killswitch failure that is prone to this model, where does the fault normally occur? so far I have dealt with the assembly and accompanying loom/harness that clips together to the main loom under the right hand side of the airbox, not further along

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

The contacts inside the actual switch is what fails.

Whether not enough pressure or arcing. The wires themselves have never been an issue.

 

[twobob1]

When I got a new key the other week without the immobiliser chip in it, it did exactly what your last sentence said:

"powers on fine, all lights working, "however the fuel pump does not prime, and when the ignition switch is pressed it doesn't turn over or even click."

That was with a key without the chip in it. (I got a blue coloured key from eBay and had it cut but had to swap out the chip from an original key) Suspect it might be immobiliser issue but don't want to lead you on another goose chase.

With you saying you have tested all the keys I'm wondering if its a fault on the immobiliser or barrel itself either a loose wire or faulty part, not too sure how they work so not much more help I'm afraid.

Good luck.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Just an FYI,

Here's a link on how one of our members cleaned the kill switch:

https://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/57993-indicator-switch-disassembly.html

 

[FinalImpact]

Something to keep in mind is that positive test for low ohms doesn't mean a wire or switch can pass AMPs of current.

For example, the kill switch could ohm out at 0.75 ohms but fail to pass the required current to run the pump, coils, and ECU.

Use a light bulb or bear minimum a 12v test light.
i.e. 1156 bulb or even a the halogen headlight bulb. They should light fully.

Next time you try the start sequence you should notice the run switch ON, as soon as you turn the key on, there should be an audible click from the safety relay before you press the start button. Does this happen every time?
Do you hear it even when it does not start?

Inside the safety switch are diodes and relays. If it works once it it not likely the source of a shut down while running.

I would be be disconnecting and looking at all of the immobilizer connections. The barrel of the cylinder lock is not suspect. The ring the reads the chip key is not suspect. Everything else is. Inspect it!

Do you have the schematics for the immobilizer wiring?

 

[TommyT]

thanks again all for your continued input, I've ordered a new relay, gonna swap out the old one, hopefully that fixes the problem (ref the link i put up a few posts ago from another user experiencing similar issues) if it's not that, I'll check the immobiliser. failing that... it's going to the Yamaha man to be fixed!! nearly 2 weeks without a good ride :sob: