Last effort before just getting rid of the headache...or taking to mechanic

[Bruno1989]

I posted before with the 04 fz6

I'm thinking I have a weak spark/electrical issue. Bike won't run, the only times I've had it run are when I installed a brand new battery ( about a month ago ) and when I've replaced the starter relay ( 3 days ago ) both times when it's ran its only stayed on for 15-20 seconds and I have to keep it alive with throttle, it wouldn't idle then died and won't start back up.

the plugs are coming out wet after attempting to start and the red wire that runs from the battery to the starter relay gets hot very fast.

Idk what to test for, might buy another set of new plugs just to see if they're an issue from so many failed starts but the ones in it now I got when I got the new battery. I just don't know what to do... I've tried the WOT numerous times and that's the only way it would crank the two times it has ran and it took a while.

I can record video of what it does when starting if it helps

 

[FinalImpact]

Started here.... http://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/56271-04-fz6-been-sitting-fuel-pump-issue.html

FWIW: there is another thread of related pain and suffering. In that thread you must solve and prove some variables to remove doubt about what is and is not working.

Step one: grab some used plugs open the gap to 0.060 - 0.070"... lay them on the header hanging from the plug wires. Crank the engine. Do you see purple white colored spark? Y/N on all four plugs...
If yes, install NEW plugs at proper gap. 0.028" or less.
Connect wires...
Add fuel to each throttle body. Like tsp each. Hit the starter button.
Does it run for 10 sec? Y/N

Report back when these things are done.

And make sure all connections to the battery, relay, coils, ECU, Fuel Injectors are good. No burning, corrosion, broken pins...

 

[Bruno1989]

Okay,
Yes it had purple/white spark on all four cyl

Got new plugs and installed with correct gap, added a little bit of fuel to each TB

No it didn't start, it did stumble a little more after the second push of the starter. After the third try I tried the WOT and it started to stumble like it was going to start ( like it has the only two times I've seen it run ) but I stopped it after a few more tries because the relay and starter were getting hot at that point

 

[FinalImpact]

In the times I've done this (not mine) it will blubber to life, Rev up and then die... at some point it should be hitting on all 4...

How big of gap did you have on the test plugs?

 

[Bruno1989]

In the times I've done this (not mine) it will blubber to life, Rev up and then die... at some point it should be hitting on all 4...

How big of gap did you have on the test plugs?

The test plug I used was at the .028" that it's supposed to be at. Totally forgot to spread it wider to test it

Just tried again and the #1 cyl exhaust pipe is warmer noticeably than the others but still no cranking, really close tho, some thin smoke comes out of what looks like a crank breather hose that's directed into the air box. Idk if that's normal

 

[Motogiro]

Okay,
Yes it had purple/white spark on all four cyl

Got new plugs and installed with correct gap, added a little bit of fuel to each TB

No it didn't start, it did stumble a little more after the second push of the starter. After the third try I tried the WOT and it started to stumble like it was going to start ( like it has the only two times I've seen it run ) but I stopped it after a few more tries because the relay and starter were getting hot at that point

Maybe try doing a compression test.

 

[FinalImpact]

The test plug I used was at the .028" that it's supposed to be at. Totally forgot to spread it wider to test it

Just tried again and the #1 cyl exhaust pipe is warmer noticeably than the others but still no cranking, really close tho, some thin smoke comes out of what looks like a crank breather hose that's directed into the air box. Idk if that's normal

The logic in making a BIG gap is that it simulates the increased load of an AFR mix @12:1 compression.

Good to see it does the stock gap but a bigger gap on a SET of plugs is best. It is waste spark so testing leads 1&4 and then 2&3 as pairs with large gaps is important.

The thing is; just because it fires in the air that doesn't mean that fuel saturated plugs will fire under compression.
Hence - install NEW plugs....

 

[Bruno1989]

Maybe try doing a compression test.

I would have to buy an adapter, which I might have to do. I don't think it's compression, its cranked twice. but I've been wrong before. Any other ideas out there?


I'm definitely about to try the larger gapping and ill get back to you, I also did buy NEW plugs and installed yesterday to no avail

 

[Bruno1989]

Just tested it with bigger gaps. All four spark, tested them in pairs 1 and 4. And 2 and 3.

And I think that part of it is they're not firing under comp... But I'm not sure. The plug on cyl 4 came out dry looking but a little smell of gas after trying the WOT start method before I tested the spark plugs w bigger gap earlier today. Idk if that's relevant just giving all info I've gotten

Thanks for info so far, I'm still remaining hopeful. I would like to reiterate the only times this bikes cranked are when I got the new battery and wouldn't after start again after it did the 15/20sec cut off. It also started once about 5 days ago when I put on a new starter relay which it then promptly cut off about 15/20secs of running and won't start again. This is why it leads me to think electrical...

 

[Soupnutz]

Where in Fl are you?

" What's the story with this bike? You said it's only started twice since you've had it, where'd you get it, and do you know what work was done on it before? I'm not sure how to enter diagnostics mode on an 04, but you can find it in the forum. You can check the sensors and stuff though. I'd check the tps and whatever others you can.

 

[FinalImpact]

Started here.... http://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/56271-04-fz6-been-sitting-fuel-pump-issue.html

FWIW: there is another thread of related pain and suffering. In that thread you must solve and prove some variables to remove doubt about what is and is not working.

Step one: grab some used plugs open the gap to 0.060 - 0.070"... lay them on the header hanging from the plug wires. Crank the engine. Do you see purple white colored spark? Y/N on all four plugs...
If yes, install NEW plugs at proper gap. 0.028" or less.
Connect wires...
Add fuel to each throttle body. Like tsp each. Hit the starter button.
Does it run for 10 sec? Y/N

Report back when these things are done.

And make sure all connections to the battery, relay, coils, ECU, Fuel Injectors are good. No burning, corrosion, broken pins...

So tell us in detail exactly what you did up here...

Although it should crank for 10 - 15 second, after about 3 rounds of this it needs to cool for 10".

In the time you have owned this bike; have you ever ridden it? Ever?

 

[Soupnutz]

So I just read your original thread. You said you're only into this bike for $400, that include what you paid for it? I'm wondering if the previous owner didn't screw something up, (like screwing up the timing on a valve adjustment) our something like that and get rid of it. Since you've had it, it's only ran for less than 15 seconds and it idled like crap. Maybe check the idle screw.

From reading everything, sounds like you've verified fuel and spark. Might be time for a compression test. Might be an issue with timing, crank position sensor maybe.

 

[Bruno1989]

I bought this bike as a fixer upper, kid had laid it down and scraped it all up and let it sit. He said was cranking up until when the battery went bad but it just sat in his yard for a while.

The link to the first thread is on final impacts first post in this thread. I'm in lake city. Idk if any other work has been done besides me cleaning tank, fuel rail, injectors. Also replaced battery, fuel pump and spark plugs. Went through diagnostic mode and cleared the codes, when I had the bad battery installed it was giving me a bad crank position sensor code but now that the new battery is in it went away, codes were cleared.

Went through tps sensor readings and it seemed to be what it supposed to be in the diag a while back but I'll check again asap

Do you guys know where the idle screw should be set roughly in turns? As I can't use rpms to judge

And no I have not ever ridden it unfortunately, FinalImpact, gonna reply to your questions in detail when I get back home in the comp. it's a pain on the cell

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

There is no "set #" of turns out for the idle stop screw. The bike has to be running,

Idle (if you didn't have a tach), is roughly a fast idle. I keep mine about 1100, which is a little lower than that, so anywhere in there is fine.


Being this bike is "new" to you, have you removed the tank, battery box, pulled the seat and gone over every wire, part of the wiring harness for any MODIFICATIONS specifically, loose connectors?

Being all the unknowns, I'd be starting with the basics and as posted before look for any mods.

For the kid to sell a simply non running FZ for $400, he did something to it he ain't revealing..
Probably wouldn't get anywhere, but I'd try talking to the kid over the phone (less intimidating than in person),
and see what other specific's he "forgot" to tell you... It may go a long way..

Or better yet, speak to the last mechanic that worked on it

As I don't think you ever did a compression test on the bike, just the ole finger over the hole test
on that engine, MINIMUM COMPRESSION is 183 PSI. I've been working on engines over 40 years
but I don't think I could tell the difference between say 125 and 183...(the difference between running and NOT running)

Till you rule that out, (W/O your finger), your very possibly chasing your tail...

 

[Bruno1989]

I'm gonna order the adapter and check comp now for sure

The only thing electrically that is amiss is the headlight, there isn't one now ( I took the crummy one off, it was rough, not the oem ) and it was tinkered with by the previous owner for sure.

I just watched a few videos on start up for these bikes and my motor doesn't turn nearly as fast as the bikes in the videos... Wondering how to check and make sure my starter is working properly bc it's been making some subtle screeching noises here and there while turning the bike over.

I don't think this guys been too deep into the bike, when I removed fuel rail/ even the air box ( and air filter ) looked pretty old. However there's a spot where the crank case, above front sprocket looks to be JB welded or something. It's where the front sprocket cover goes. Doesn't seem to leak now, bike has correct amount of oil. It may have been ran low on oil tho so I'm definitely checking comp asap, you guys are totally right... That would suck

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

$1.00 says he threw the drive chain thru the case where that JB weld is. Sorry. If its not leaking ONCE ITS running, you'll probably be ok.
Keep a close eye on it once the engines running. I would look very close (brake cleaner in the area) to see the extent of the damage.
That also is a hint the bike was not maintained. The chain is about the #1 thing to keep adjusted and lubed which it apparently wasn't..

The starters do wear out occasionally (mostly with higher mileage engines). You can pull it out and apart and take a peek.
Check the brushes, any bushings a lil grease wouldn't hurt.

With that said, I hope it IS the starter making that noise and NOT the internals of the engine.

 

[FinalImpact]

As others have mentioned mines never cranked more than 2 to 3sec and it fires off so I cant say the cables wouldn't get hot if it cranked longer.

The fact that the do get hot and it cranks slowly and you replaced the relay all seem to point to excessive load either by the engine or internally within the starter.

If you have a volt meter tell us the battery voltage key off. Key on. And key on and cranking.

If its under 9v it may explain why it won't fire off.
If its been cranking this many days / attempts w you and the PO I would opt for replacement as the armature and windings have likely been over heated and its possible it may never crank at the "normal" speed it should...

How long before the cable gets hot? Seconds? If so, replace the cable too. fleebay comes to mind or the parts section of this forum.

 

[FinalImpact]

Also, checking the compression on a slow cranking engine will yield poor results and could steer you in the wrong direction. Fix the starter first or accept that your numbers will be lower than expected but should remain even across all four IF cranking speed is mainted throughout the tests.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Also, checking the compression on a slow cranking engine will yield poor results and could steer you in the wrong direction. Fix the starter first or accept that your numbers will be lower than expected but should remain even across all four IF cranking speed is mainted throughout the tests.

In addition to the above, pull all the plugs (so it spins faster and hold the throttle wide open).

If the compression is low, squirt a little bit of oil in the cylinder and see if that brings up the #'s . If it does, there's likely as issue with the piston rings being worn, block, etc.

A leak down test would be better yet but get a baseline # first...

 

[BengNY]

Just jumping in with a question that might help out OP. Is there an 'easy' way to do a comp test? When I considered doing one I was put off by how much stuff you have to remove. In fact, I couldn't really think of a way to do it without removing the radiator, unless there's a way of going from the top (from where the battery box sits?). Also looked like it needs long battery cables to move the battery out of the way. And then consider you're supposed to do this all while the bike is warm/hot!

So my threadjacked question: is there an easy way or is it necessary to find somebody with a compressor and do the leakdown?

Edit: I realize asked this in a thread I started! The thread however went in other directions which was very helpful to that specific problem!