Loud Pipes Debate...

[Bruce McCrary]

You strike me as a rather bitter person which is sad.

Oh well. Maybe it's they way your reading my posts. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm not American so your state/post code doesn't mean anything to me. It could mean anything quite literally. Different areas have very different perspectives, communities and attitudes, something you might have been able to read into my comment if you took a deep breath before jumping down my throat.

What you originally said was "I have no idea where your from..." after reading where I specifically mentioned the AMA & MIC which are decidedly very American organizations, then mentioned in the very next sentence that what I referring to was targeted towards companies selling to the US markets. I didn't jump down your throat, I pointed out what I thought was extremely obvious.

But don't worry I'll write down those details and make a post it note for "bitter and rude people come from here" shall I?

Hey, what ever makes your boat float Skippy. You seem to be wanting to jump to you own conclusions based on what you perceive and not reality anyway. Go for it. No skin off my teeth.

Everyone isn't going to agree with your opinion, if you can't deal with it a forums a bad place to be visiting.

The thing is I wasn't projecting my opinions. I was simply stating what has become fact. The AMA & MIC have suggested a 96 db sound limit. The aftermarket companies are listening and agreeing. There are towns and communities in the US that have put laws into effect that deal with noise and exhaust systems on motorcycles as a direct result of what they felt was excessive noise. There are US federal mandates being considered that would restrict the use of any exhaust system that doesn't comply with federal emission and noise levels. Let me state once again for clarity. THESE ARE NOT MY OPINIONS. THESE ARE FACTS. It's happening as we speak and there is no good indication that it will go away or lessen in severity.

The general community also isn't normally the 'group' who causes these legislations to be put into place. You come from a country where something like 30% of the population vote to elect one of the most powerful leaders in the world and your trying to tell me that the majority of people DID get up in arms about the sound of a motorcycle exhaust?

Nupe. Once again your reading what you want and not what I wrote. I never said a majority. I made a general reference to "John Q. Public" which was merely used as an anonymous namesake for the non-riding public.

Small minority groups of very loud, sometimes influential, and generally very political people are the ones who get these laws passed. Mainly because most of the people who would stand against the overreactions we see are pretty laid back and often don't realise what they stand to lose until legislation has been passed. Many people just can't be bothered or just don't know what is going on. It changes and they adapt.

Couldn't agree with you more! While it isn't factually so, it seems that many of the bills and ultimately laws that are written in reference to the motorcycle or powersports community are done under cover of the night. There's nothing on the radar screen at one moment and all of a sudden a slimy, poorly written and ill conceived piece of legislation is suddenly before the house or senate for signature. The NC ATV bill/law was like that. We had no real clue it was coming, then when it did the biggest piece of legislative crap I have ever read is put on the fast track through both houses and on the governors desk. It was amazing. I got wind of it just days before the final hearing and took a day off work to go to Raleigh and see what was going on and came back in utter disbelief that a law that leaves so much up to interpretation by LEO's and so full of bull**** loopholes could actually be passed as law. Yet here it is.

Its funny that guns kill people, and are used in so much crime in the USA, but that 'right' can't be taken away but a loud exhaust which realistically doesn't harm (but maybe annoy) anyone is. The main difference is if they tried to take away guns.... well the idea is laughable. If they got the same response at the suggestion to take away loud exhausts they wouldn't try that either.

Why is it that folks outside the US just love to bring up our 2nd amendment rights so much?

I'm glad you brought it up though, lets run with it a bit. One reason why the gun lobby is so strong is because of the sheer size of it. Their numbers dwarf those of the American motorcycle rider. But that isn't the thing really. With those numbers naturally come more people that are willing to stand up and do the right thing, more that see the big picture and understand that things worth keeping aren't just handed to us. "We" need more of that mentality. Now consider this; Have you ever heard or read of a Colt owner bad mouthing the owner of a Winchester? Do you hear pistol owners calling shotgun owners 'Tools'? Do you honestly think for even a moment that if by some far out unfathomable chance that John Q Public started complaining about excessive noise from firearms that the fans of small caliber short barreled weapons would start pointing fingers at the owners of large caliber long barreled ones claiming that the noise from those weapons is more offensive and that they are the real problem?

Not in a million years.

They understand that they are one group and that there is strength in those numbers. Can "We" say that? All you've got to do is read some of the posts on this forum, heck in this very thread to understand that "We" don't get it, and because of that, heck, DUE to that, "We" are easy prey to those that would like to see "us" simply go away, or least be legislated into a place where it doesn't matter any more.

Its political really, politicians love to be looking like they are doing something 'good' for the community, when people actually stand up and say 'no we won't accept this' often the latest grand standing ends up failing.

Yeah, exactly. Myrtle Beach is prime example of that. A small but boisterous and influential part of the population got the local politicians ears (and into their pocketbooks)(no I don't know that for a fact, but it ain't hard to figure) and a 20 year plus tradition is gone. There are many lessons to be learned from that deal and it will go down in "our" history as THE place where "we" really dropped the ball.

I don't really see the point you are argueing...

Again, I'm not arguing anything. Simply pointing out facts.

...we all agree that some pipes are too loud, in fact even amongst stock pipes there is a huge variance in the sound produced.

But you and others are simply missing the point. That doesn't matter. When law makers write legislation the verbiage will not be "V-Twin", "Cruiser", "In-line four" or "sportbike", it will be, and has been, "Motorcycle". Up until the AMA and MIC decided to step up to the plate "we" couldn't even say with any definition or clarity what "too loud" was. Now "we" can, for the immediate future it is 96 decibels. Unless of course a local, state or federal government decides otherwise. No one who is charged with measuring that number will give a tinkers damn about any variance in sound or the Doppler effect or anything else. They will simply be reading a decibel meter and it will either be above or below 96 (or whatever) db, and whatever side of the line the exhaust being checked falls will determine if it is legal.

It's really that simple.

If every single motorcyclist decided to stick with the stock exhaust I very much doubt the groups who want to see motorcycles gone would suddenly change subjects, they would chose something else to pick at or just change what they see as acceptable.

Agreed. Honestly the noise issue is but one issue facing "us" and not really the most important IMHO. Just the one that members of this forum seem to enjoy bringing up the most. Land use issues are still my biggest target and the one that concerns me personally the most. Just before Bill Clinton left office he signed a couple of bills into effect that could have been the end of off road riding on public lands in this country. Called the "Wilderness Act" and the "Road-less Initiative" they would have been the single biggest land grab since the Louisiana Purchase and would have not only prohibited off road vehicular use on most public lands, it would have displaced people from their homes and lands and even done stupid things like making parts of the Blue Ridge Parkway open only to foot traffic. Fortunately the Bush administration nixed that one within the first week of taking office and then completely took it off the table. But with the Dem's back in the drivers seat it is rearing it's ugly head again.

But I digress...

Something as simple as riding in low revs while in suburban areas can be the difference between a stock exhaust sounding fine and being too loud, and its still reliant on the hearer's opinion. To some it doesn't matter the actual volume all that matters is that its a bike.

Pretty much.

So we have the choice of either all going for super quiet exhausts, or having a law enforced upon us that does it anyway, wow thats an awesome set of options.

Yep. That's where this is headed, and in some cases, already is.

Instead of having something taken from us lets just give it away! Then when the next thing they want to take from us comes up lets just bend over and take it :thumbup: yep thats definately a long term solution.

No! I've got a better idea! Lets all understand that above all "we" are all riders and enthusiasts. Lets all look out for each other instead of pointing fingers in one direction or another. Lets all understand that "we" have to co-exist with those that don't ride and that their opinions matter just as much as "ours" do and find some middle ground. Lets all understand that it will be a give and take situation and that the long term goal is to RIDE and enjoy it. Lets all get together and be heard instead of being the herd.

Probably the biggest step we could take to help the motorcycle image is just remove all those HD riders and their bikes (and similar), they are obnoxious and loud and scary looking. Never mind alot of them are really nice normal people!

*thud, thud, thud* (That's me beating my head on the desk...)

I'm not going to continue argueing with you becaues your stance seems to be "(a)self regulate ourselves into oblivion, or (b)face off with the people who don't like us and lose" I'll take option (c) - fight for a bit of freedom.

GREAT! So I can count on you to do like I have been for the last 10 plus years and you'll be calling and writing letters to your congressmen and senators, going to public meetings to make sure that "our" side is heard? Oh. Wait. You can only do part of that... The question is, will you?

If I lose at least I know what I stood for, and can have a bit of pride. That way the next generation, when they face the next challenge will have learnt something and hopefully have the rolemodels or older generations backup in standing up when its needed and making themselves heard.

Quit talking about it and do it big boy. Lip service don't count.

I am pretty idealistic, and it can get me into trouble at times since these days "doing the right thing ain't doing the right thing!" but I'm me, and just accepting all the limitations people would often like to see placed simply because its something they can't or won't do, or don't approve of would be effectively be putting a ban on being myself.

Wow. That's deep dude... Doesn't mean a whole lot if you don't walk the walk, but still, deep.

To put it simply:
Them : :spank:
Me: :Flip:
Everyone else: :ban:

That's the spirit. Kinda like the other statement made about not caring about what other people think of "us". It'll get "us" real far...

Bruce

 

[stryken]

.... WOW !!

 

[blkparade]

Bruce, I understand your passion about trying to affect the problem before it becomes one. :thumbup: In an ideal world it just may work. My suggestion to you since you seem to think my statements and maybe a few others are a bit off, would be to start a grassroots campaign and get us involved. You appear very educated on this and relevant topics and you seem to be trying to lead/direct many of us to thinking how we may affect the changes we need, so I think it would be great to see you get some type of initiative going. Unfortunately, my experience with government and those that make the decisions is that generally money or influence is the key. Short of you rallying a large contingent of people and having great media contacts its a tough road.

Just so you know I am at my capital 5 to 6 times a year including spending 2 full days going to all the politicians offices I can to speak on behalf of my coworkers. The organization I am a part of has dozens of reps at the capital at the same time and represents 10's of thousands of people and yet we seem to have a problem affecting the laws that affect us(but then that could be because I call them liars before we shake hands ). I can tell you what I see usually is just one man or woman lying to me, looking for that next vote. And rest easy, even though we have a hard time affecting choice, I personally have been at this for over 10 years and I will not quit.

My point you might ask, it is great to suggest we need to band together but it would be even greater to band us together. Personally, I was always taught to clean my house 1st and the rest should fall into place. Saying that, the most effective way to help repair any issues would be encourage motorcyclist's to clean our house 1st. Next to impossible, probably, but then so is Politics and the know it all's that create these sometimes ass-hat laws. Ride safe and enjoy the freedoms we do have. :thumbup:

 

[zixxerboy]

Gotta get one of these shirts from PJ, then you won't have to ask for my opinion.

BINGO!!!!

Where can I buy that shirt?

Most of my bikes have had loud pipes. Early on because I was imature and later because I bought the bike with them and was too cheap to get stock ones. The people who noticed them most were the cops. Now on my stock piped FZ I can wail on it in town w/o alerting the local constabulary.

My take now is LOUD PIPES RISK RIGHTS.

 

[Nelly]

this has been a great thread. Personally i don't believe that loud pipes are safer. I feel that they offer a false sense of security. When i am in my car. I only hear the loud pipe as the rider is blowing by. 96db is plenty loud enough. In fact a number of tracks now have noise limits. Doe's a quite pipe spoil my ride? No way. I have yet to see any evidence to back this theory Nelly

 

[Bruce McCrary]

Bruce, I understand your passion about trying to affect the problem before it becomes one. :thumbup: In an ideal world it just may work. My suggestion to you since you seem to think my statements and maybe a few others are a bit off, would be to start a grassroots campaign and get us involved.

Well the thing is the noise issue is already a big problem and personally I think the battle has already been lost. At this point it's more about damage control than anything else.

As for the grassroots campaign, thats what I call myself doing by posting here (and other forums), trying to spread the word and educate other riders.

You appear very educated on this and relevant topics and you seem to be trying to lead/direct many of us to thinking how we may affect the changes we need, so I think it would be great to see you get some type of initiative going.

I'm not near as educated as I'd like to be, or will be for that matter. But like most of you my time and available resources are limited at best. At this point I feel my time is best spent trying to educate myself and 'spreading the word'. My job allows me to speak to many, many riders from all the various segments of the sport on a daily basis and the information exchange on a near daily basis is priceless. In addition to that I am in near constant communication with local 'riders rights' groups and various industry organizations doing the same type thing. These are some of the places where I get the info that I share with everyone else. I speak with local law makers directly on issues that face us and have written so many letters that I should be getting postage in bulk and sent so many emails that I've lost count. Alas, my proverbial plate is already pretty full, maybe after I retire...

Unfortunately, my experience with government and those that make the decisions is that generally money or influence is the key. Short of you rallying a large contingent of people and having great media contacts its a tough road.

Amen brother. That's why we should all be putting our support behind organizations that are already out there trying to do the job.

Just so you know I am at my capital 5 to 6 times a year including spending 2 full days going to all the politicians offices I can to speak on behalf of my coworkers. The organization I am a part of has dozens of reps at the capital at the same time and represents 10's of thousands of people and yet we seem to have a problem affecting the laws that affect us(but then that could be because I call them liars before we shake hands ). I can tell you what I see usually is just one man or woman lying to me, looking for that next vote. And rest easy, even though we have a hard time affecting choice, I personally have been at this for over 10 years and I will not quit.

Hot damn! An insider!! And one with some spunk too!!! *lol* You didn't say what exactly it is your doing, but keep it up! Keep 'em honest! Let them know someone is paying attention. While your at it, ask some questions relating to the sport, find out who in your circle of contacts is in our corner and who isn't. See whats being said, what people think. Then let us know so that we can use that information and let others know.

My point you might ask, it is great to suggest we need to band together but it would be even greater to band us together. Personally, I was always taught to clean my house 1st and the rest should fall into place. Saying that, the most effective way to help repair any issues would be encourage motorcyclist's to clean our house 1st.

Wouldn't you say that's what I've been trying to do? Now, are you going to jump on the band wagon and do the same thing?

Next to impossible, probably, but then so is Politics and the know it all's that create these sometimes ass-hat laws.

Tough and tall grades for sure, but no hill for a climber! We all just have to understand that everyone that rides a motorcycle is in the same boat and that we all will be effected by whatever comes down the pike. "They" will lump us all together, so "we" should all be together and have each others backs. "We" should also remember that what we do as individuals absolutely has an effect on the group as a whole and try to conduct ourselves accordingly.

Ride safe and enjoy the freedoms we do have. :thumbup:

Right back at you! Ride safe and ride far!

Bruce

 

[grumpy1luvs2eat]

You left out the " Don't care" vote! Loud doesn't make me go left and right any better. GRUMPY

 

[Tailgate]

I think my biggest concern might be someone not seeing and turning left in front of me. I doubt---but, great if it does---that loud pipes willl make any difference,especially with cager's windows rolled up, stereo/radio going. Now, if cager has window rolled down, maybe some benefit. I wouldn't mind aftermarket pipes on FZ6 but....they are SO, way, overpriced! I mean, near $500 for a can? Geesh.

 

[cap'n]

A bit of perspective...

If aftermarket cans were capped at 96dB, what exactly would be the tragedy? Try to answer without using anything philosophical ("you can have my deregulated Laser quad exhaust when you pry it from my cold dead fingers" etc), and keep it to actual nuts and bolts examples. Help me get the fear. You would:

- still be able to ride exactly as now, when and where you want
- still be able to buy a 160hp liter bike with a learner's permit if so motivated
- still be able to buy the same exact bikes on dealers' floors as now, which all meet those proposed noise threshold criteria

You would NOT:

- be able to make as much noise....

and what else? I'm missing the leap of associating noise regs with some sort of loss of constitutional freedom, and so far the link has only been argued as "slippery slope," ie, "if they take this what else will they take" or some such, which isn't swaying me. I ask because I want to know, not because I am sure I'm right. What am I missing?

 

[blkparade]

I'll take a shot at this. Doesn't mean I am right but hey I will give it a shot. You are probably right you wont lose much performance wise. I am not a real technical guy. I personally just like the sound of my Akrapovic's. :rockon:

That being said I agree with you seeing this as a slippery slope type of thing and that maybe not being a defining reason to say keep loud pipes. But what I think a few people are saying is that they see this as the continuation of rights and freedoms that have been slowly eroded by those who have no real agenda other than to impose their will. I am not one of those flag waving give me liberty or give me death people either. But I have seen small changes take place that over time make me sit back and say how the heck did we get here. Are loud pipes where we make our stand, that is for each person to decide. I think this is more to help people understand that its the little things that change and this in turn creates bigger things in the future. And I personally hate that feeling. I realize this started as, will the pipes save you and I guess the point may be, we may never get the chance to know in the future, if we don't either help ourselves by being sensible about our choices and be responsible in our operation of our aftermarket exhausts. Or protect ourselves against possible legislation by people who feel they are having a good day by taking from others.

Ohh and I am not on a pulpit, because I have been known to give a rev or two when it wasn't needed. So am I part of the problem? Probably just a bit, but I guess its enough, to say I could also be a bit smarter in my timing.

What are you missing, nothing really just a bunch of people with varied opinions and they have the opportunity to present them. You now get the chance to weigh them and form your own. Pretty cool isn't it! :thumbup: Ride safe and enjoy.

 

[blkparade]

Hey Bruce,

No I wasn't jumping on any band wagon or anything like that. I was raised that way, the Military re-enforced it and I try to live the take care of your own house first rule. That saves me from having to worry about everyone else sometimes . You had a few points I didn't agree with and a few I did, but constructive works better than destructive so I was just letting you know how I was thinking. :thumbup:

 

[afpreppie04]

I think it depends on the situation. For example if you are riding in the city between buildings, or in a tunnel, or something that can bounce the sound around it might help some. I have a highway story about loud pipes from today. I was going with the traffic flow in the fast lane (80 indicated). It was pretty full since it was the middle of the day. A guy on an SV flies by me IN MY LANE going at least 100 and proceeds to go between the two lanes full of cars until he is out of sight within a couple seconds (of course wearing the obligatory jeans and t-shirt). He had some loud pipes on and I did not even know he was there until he was in my lane with me. I sure could hear him riding off once he was past though.

 

[Soap]

It's ok having a t-shirt like that, but an actual little bit of thinking would come to the conclusion that you can't always stop every accident. If filtering through, a loud exhaust may aid awareness of your presence so for that reason I'm for it. But I realise it may annoy people in urban areas, so just knock it up a gear or 2..

 

[Kriswithak]

Oh well. Maybe it's they way your reading my posts. Nothing could be further from the truth.

What you originally said was "I have no idea where your from..." after reading where I specifically mentioned the AMA & MIC which are decidedly very American organizations, then mentioned in the very next sentence that what I referring to was targeted towards companies selling to the US markets. I didn't jump down your throat, I pointed out what I thought was extremely obvious.

Wow.... totally missed my point yet again. I don't know how much I can spell this out for you. America is a large place making generalisations about the community and area you come from based on your country is pointless because it is meaningless. I visited a few areas of America a while ago, the difference between states let alone postcodes was enormous, its the same here in Australia. If I lived in the same suburb as you or had lived in the same suburb THEN I would know where you come from.

Hey, what ever makes your boat float Skippy. You seem to be wanting to jump to you own conclusions based on what you perceive and not reality anyway. Go for it. No skin off my teeth.

Notice the bolded part? THATS CALLED RACISM. I don't know if you have met Australian's who don't mind shrugging that off, but I won't and I don't. Its racism pure and simple.

The thing is I wasn't projecting my opinions. I was simply stating what has become fact. The AMA & MIC have suggested a 96 db sound limit. The aftermarket companies are listening and agreeing.......... Let me state once again for clarity. THESE ARE NOT MY OPINIONS. THESE ARE FACTS. It's happening as we speak and there is no good indication that it will go away or lessen in severity.

America has a political system that I can't say I'm that knowledgeable of. Here something has to be passed, and we write to our local member if we have an issue. If enough people write and its an important issue generally that member realises they can't go with the flow they have to represent the people writing to them. This is how several attempts to control motorcycles in non noise related areas have been shot down.
I think its probably enough to say that possibly its different for you. That being said I find it hard to beleive that there is no recourse in America.

Nupe. Once again your reading what you want and not what I wrote. I never said a majority. I made a general reference to "John Q. Public" which was merely used as an anonymous namesake for the non-riding public.

Its funny because apparently YOU are just reading what you want into what I am writing?

Couldn't agree with you more! While it isn't factually so, it seems that many of the bills and ultimately laws that are written in reference to the motorcycle or powersports community are done under cover of the night. .............. It was amazing. I got wind of it just days before the final hearing and took a day off work to go to Raleigh and see what was going on and came back in utter disbelief that a law that leaves so much up to interpretation by LEO's and so full of bull**** loopholes could actually be passed as law. Yet here it is.

We had the same issue here with the law pertaining to clubs. Its such a blatant breach of human rights that groups are only now starting to cotton on and really fight. Might be too late, but we will see.

Why is it that folks outside the US just love to bring up our 2nd amendment rights so much?

I'm glad you brought it up though, lets run with it a bit. One reason why the gun lobby is so strong is because of the sheer size of it. Their numbers dwarf those of the American motorcycle rider. But that isn't the thing really. .............Do you honestly think for even a moment that if by some far out unfathomable chance that John Q Public started complaining about excessive noise from firearms that the fans of small caliber short barreled weapons would start pointing fingers at the owners of large caliber long barreled ones claiming that the noise from those weapons is more offensive and that they are the real problem?

Not in a million years.

They understand that they are one group and that there is strength in those numbers. Can "We" say that? All you've got to do is read some of the posts on this forum, heck in this very thread to understand that "We" don't get it, and because of that, heck, DUE to that, "We" are easy prey to those that would like to see "us" simply go away, or least be legislated into a place where it doesn't matter any more.

Your the person who seems to have something against people with loud (leaving this a wide open term too) exhausts and who would seem to rather they don't exist to 'fix' a problem....

Yeah, exactly. Myrtle Beach is prime example of that. A small but boisterous and influential part of the population got the local politicians ears (and into their pocketbooks)(no I don't know that for a fact, but it ain't hard to figure) and a 20 year plus tradition is gone. There are many lessons to be learned from that deal and it will go down in "our" history as THE place where "we" really dropped the ball.

Best way to learn from this is not to let it happen ever again. Not always possible but you can only try your hardest and help educate communities.

Again, I'm not arguing anything. Simply pointing out facts.

Your pointing out circumstances and results, fact is the part about something that happened, where you make a judgement on that is called 'opinion'.

But you and others are simply missing the point. That doesn't matter. When law makers write legislation the verbiage will not be "V-Twin", "Cruiser", "In-line four" or "sportbike", it will be, and has been, "Motorcycle". Up until the AMA and MIC decided to step up to the plate "we" couldn't even say with any definition or clarity what "too loud" was. Now "we" can, for the immediate future it is 96 decibels. Unless of course a local, state or federal government decides otherwise. No one who is charged with measuring that number will give a tinkers damn about any variance in sound or the Doppler effect or anything else. They will simply be reading a decibel meter and it will either be above or below 96 (or whatever) db, and whatever side of the line the exhaust being checked falls will determine if it is legal.

It's really that simple.

I'm not sure I see the point of this comment? We already have limits here, in fact for events there are also limits in place to ensure that the public doesn't end up thinking of all riders as throttle happy goons. I can't say whether this is in place as a response to a threat to these events or as a precaution by the motorcycling bodies. I'm not going to debate whether we did something right and you did something wrong because thats a huge judgement call that I couldn't possibly make, and we have totally different systems. We also still have people who flaunt those limits, in some cases to a level that is a disgrace to everyone.
This all being said a 96db limit, depending how its measured could either be a good agreed upon mid point where both groups are happy, or be on either side of that balance. Some people will be happy some will not. Its just getting the overwhelming majority of everyone into the happy group thats important. There are going to be outliers who realistically only represent people with a problem and a need to either control other peoples freedom, or flout their own freedom by stepping on someone elses, both really the same but representing both extremes.

Agreed. Honestly the noise issue is but one issue facing "us" and not really the most important IMHO. Just the one that members of this forum seem to enjoy bringing up the most. Land use issues are still my biggest target and the one that concerns me personally the most. ............ Fortunately the Bush administration nixed that one within the first week of taking office and then completely took it off the table. But with the Dem's back in the drivers seat it is rearing it's ugly head again.

But I digress...

We already have limitations on where offroad vehicles can be used because of the damage they can possibly do to the natural environment as well as the danger these riders often put themselves in just by riding. Obviously its a personal choice BUT when someone is badly injured or dies it makes us all look bad. In more remote areas the limitations are less adhered to or more loosely controlled. That being said if there was a problem there is a network in place that would allow action to be taken without a major need for new laws or some huge backlash.
One main thing noticed is that often people who enjoy these activities don't enjoy the responsibility that come with them. In areas that are heavily travelled by people seeking good offroad areas there are often major noise issues due to very inconsiderate and rude riders who have the loudest and most obnoxious exhaust system money could buy or they could make/modify.

No! I've got a better idea! Lets all understand that above all "we" are all riders and enthusiasts. Lets all look out for each other instead of pointing fingers in one direction or another. Lets all understand that "we" have to co-exist with those that don't ride and that their opinions matter just as much as "ours" do and find some middle ground. Lets all understand that it will be a give and take situation and that the long term goal is to RIDE and enjoy it. Lets all get together and be heard instead of being the herd.

That would mean being a bit more accepting of people who like and desire a loud exhaust on their bike........ and trying to assist in protecting their interests where reasonable. Your solution seems to be ban their interests and force them to be more like you? Sorry if I'm reading what your writing wrong... but thats what I see from nearly all your posts.

*thud, thud, thud* (That's me beating my head on the desk...)

Honestly if you didn't see the sarcasm of that statement then I hope those thuds knocked some sense into you. Since I obviously have to explain - Cruisers in their leathers and all in black often looking quite fearsome are commonly the first group to be targetted by discrimination. People are afraid of them, sometimes with reason (gang related), generally the same reason people have to be afraid of road ragers, but its so much easier to be afraid of someone scary, than someone who might jump out of their car (with a weapon) for baulking them or cutting them off and bash the **** out of you.
In general alot of people riding these cruisers are actually professionals seeking a hobby where they can let their hair down, express themselves a bit, and just have some fun. Just like the rest of us. I laughingly tell my friend his bike is a 'boat anchor' but we are both enthusiasts and he tells me I ride a yamahaha, and that when I'm seen on it most people must think I'm a girl. It would be easy to let those riders be the victim of discrimination because LOOK! we are getting away scott free on your 'sports' bikes or whatever classification they give us.... but we'll be next.
We do need to stick together.

GREAT! So I can count on you to do like I have been for the last 10 plus years and you'll be calling and writing letters to your congressmen and senators, going to public meetings to make sure that "our" side is heard? Oh. Wait. You can only do part of that... The question is, will you?

Quit talking about it and do it big boy. Lip service don't count.

Wow. That's deep dude... Doesn't mean a whole lot if you don't walk the walk, but still, deep.

Your making assumptions without a shred of evidence? Theres a word for that. I had to write in to my local member when they tried to institute front number plates. I wrote in supporting the huge undertaking of making the city motorcycle (and scooter) friendly.
I'm sorry that I haven't had huge issues that I've had the opportunity to watch crush my rights here. Hopefully when I come along I'll have more success than you and be able to come back here and give people a positive message instead of "we are screwed and its all *points finger* your fault because of *latest issue*"

That's the spirit. Kinda like the other statement made about not caring about what other people think of "us". It'll get "us" real far...
Bruce

You see everything in life is about balance. You seem to care more about what other people think, than about the issue, and your picking the 'other' side rather than sticking with 'us' as you called it.
I know you will disagree and claim your standing for motorcyclists, but seriously read over your posts and maybe instead of JUST looking at people like yourself and motorcycle haters perspective look at the perspectives of the different groups of motorcyclists your clammering to represent, despite not feeling their opinion is worthy of any support let alone voicing.
You can't seriously expect to receive support from the general motorcycling population when your so obviously anti loud (in any form) exhausts if this is the issue being contested.
I mean what happens when something you feel important comes up - say community motorcycling events, or land use- which maybe these riders don't ever visit or care, they will probably be laughing if you asked for their support.
If we take this forum as an example half the people here like their loud exhaust and really enjoy them. You just lost half your supporters if you honestly can't try and represent them, even if your only representing them as a perspective, not one you agree with, but one that should be considered.

From what I see the people trying to do the nasty things we dislike to motorcyclists have won the first battle, if we can't unite on an issue we can't fight back, and generally politicians and the people who use them know how to make sure an issue splits the community to try and force it through. See they don't even need to motivate people to take up their cause, all they need to do is make sure no one HAS the motivation to do anything against them.

Anyway after this long post I'm feeling much calmer, please lay off the racist slurs in the future though.


<Note: '..........' mid quote represent shortened quotes due to the maximum post size limit>

 

[Bruce McCrary]

Notice the bolded part? THATS CALLED RACISM. I don't know if you have met Australian's who don't mind shrugging that off, but I won't and I don't. Its racism pure and simple.

:rof: Really? Around here it's peanut butter, maybe a dogs name, and even a nickname for some folks.

So, first off I won't apologize because in my mind I didn't do anything that warrants an apology. But I will tell you that if in the span of the world between my keyboard and your screen a brand of peanut butter and a pets name became a racist slur that offended you, well... That was certainly not my intent.

Secondly, that may be the whole thing with you and I here. Maybe the old adage about a common people separated by a common language is coming into play here, because in reviewing the rest of your post I feel you must be reading someone else's posts and responding to mine.

For the record, I don't support the exhaust limitations that are coming at us here in the US, but I do recognize that something has to be done and understand why. Sorta like I don't support a mandatory helmet law but always wear one and as bad as I hate to admit it can see why the safetycrats push so hard for those laws. But that doesn't mean that I don't oppose them or fight against them either. BTW, I'm glad you took an active role in getting involved in your local government issues and policy's and will only encourage you to do it more.

Now getting away from directly responding to you and more back into the conversation...

Most people probably don't know what 96 db is in relation to motorcycle exhaust notes, and with good reason. They haven't been tested. Riders here in the US who have done track days or raced at AMA national and maybe even some local ones may have come under the scrutiny of a sound meter. Truth is that 96 db is where the AMA is currently at, so if your track bike or off road racer is legal you have an idea.

96 db not that big a stretch for many systems, especially considering that the proposed tests are again, the same one used in AMA competition. Done at a fast idle, 20" away at and angle and a few feet off the ground. The flip side of that is that most of the systems that pass this test will get as, or pretty close to the same db level as those that don't when the engine is in its power range.

Which is why many are questioning the suggested 96 db limit and asking if it shouldn't be a maximum of 96 db as opposed to a fast idle reading.

Regardless, the monster lurking in the shadows here is the compliance with existing federal emissions and noise mandates issue. IF that were to come into play, THEN we have something that will be as hard to deal with as the child's lead law deal we just went through.

Bruce

 

[afpreppie04]

Concerning the 96 db reading 20" from the exhaust and a few feet off the ground, is the angle a set angle from the outlet? I can just see it being affected by the type of exhaust, ie ours directs pretty much straight back so something a few feet off the ground would get it pointing right at it, where a shorty exhaust, for example, points upwards and could be directed over the db reader depending on positioning, allowing them some extra wiggle room. Also, I have never heard of skippy being a slur either, I have a jar of it in my cupboard right now.

 

[wrightme43]

Wow.... totally missed my point yet again. I don't know how much I can spell this out for you. America is a large place making generalisations about the community and area you come from based on your country is pointless because it is meaningless. I visited a few areas of America a while ago, the difference between states let alone postcodes was enormous, its the same here in Australia. If I lived in the same suburb as you or had lived in the same suburb THEN I would know where you come from.



Notice the bolded part? THATS CALLED RACISM. I don't know if you have met Australian's who don't mind shrugging that off, but I won't and I don't. Its racism pure and simple.



America has a political system that I can't say I'm that knowledgeable of. Here something has to be passed, and we write to our local member if we have an issue. If enough people write and its an important issue generally that member realises they can't go with the flow they have to represent the people writing to them. This is how several attempts to control motorcycles in non noise related areas have been shot down.
I think its probably enough to say that possibly its different for you. That being said I find it hard to beleive that there is no recourse in America.



Its funny because apparently YOU are just reading what you want into what I am writing?



We had the same issue here with the law pertaining to clubs. Its such a blatant breach of human rights that groups are only now starting to cotton on and really fight. Might be too late, but we will see.




Your the person who seems to have something against people with loud (leaving this a wide open term too) exhausts and who would seem to rather they don't exist to 'fix' a problem....



Best way to learn from this is not to let it happen ever again. Not always possible but you can only try your hardest and help educate communities.


Your pointing out circumstances and results, fact is the part about something that happened, where you make a judgement on that is called 'opinion'.



I'm not sure I see the point of this comment? We already have limits here, in fact for events there are also limits in place to ensure that the public doesn't end up thinking of all riders as throttle happy goons. I can't say whether this is in place as a response to a threat to these events or as a precaution by the motorcycling bodies. I'm not going to debate whether we did something right and you did something wrong because thats a huge judgement call that I couldn't possibly make, and we have totally different systems. We also still have people who flaunt those limits, in some cases to a level that is a disgrace to everyone.
This all being said a 96db limit, depending how its measured could either be a good agreed upon mid point where both groups are happy, or be on either side of that balance. Some people will be happy some will not. Its just getting the overwhelming majority of everyone into the happy group thats important. There are going to be outliers who realistically only represent people with a problem and a need to either control other peoples freedom, or flout their own freedom by stepping on someone elses, both really the same but representing both extremes.



We already have limitations on where offroad vehicles can be used because of the damage they can possibly do to the natural environment as well as the danger these riders often put themselves in just by riding. Obviously its a personal choice BUT when someone is badly injured or dies it makes us all look bad. In more remote areas the limitations are less adhered to or more loosely controlled. That being said if there was a problem there is a network in place that would allow action to be taken without a major need for new laws or some huge backlash.
One main thing noticed is that often people who enjoy these activities don't enjoy the responsibility that come with them. In areas that are heavily travelled by people seeking good offroad areas there are often major noise issues due to very inconsiderate and rude riders who have the loudest and most obnoxious exhaust system money could buy or they could make/modify.



That would mean being a bit more accepting of people who like and desire a loud exhaust on their bike........ and trying to assist in protecting their interests where reasonable. Your solution seems to be ban their interests and force them to be more like you? Sorry if I'm reading what your writing wrong... but thats what I see from nearly all your posts.



Honestly if you didn't see the sarcasm of that statement then I hope those thuds knocked some sense into you. Since I obviously have to explain - Cruisers in their leathers and all in black often looking quite fearsome are commonly the first group to be targetted by discrimination. People are afraid of them, sometimes with reason (gang related), generally the same reason people have to be afraid of road ragers, but its so much easier to be afraid of someone scary, than someone who might jump out of their car (with a weapon) for baulking them or cutting them off and bash the **** out of you.
In general alot of people riding these cruisers are actually professionals seeking a hobby where they can let their hair down, express themselves a bit, and just have some fun. Just like the rest of us. I laughingly tell my friend his bike is a 'boat anchor' but we are both enthusiasts and he tells me I ride a yamahaha, and that when I'm seen on it most people must think I'm a girl. It would be easy to let those riders be the victim of discrimination because LOOK! we are getting away scott free on your 'sports' bikes or whatever classification they give us.... but we'll be next.
We do need to stick together.



Your making assumptions without a shred of evidence? Theres a word for that. I had to write in to my local member when they tried to institute front number plates. I wrote in supporting the huge undertaking of making the city motorcycle (and scooter) friendly.
I'm sorry that I haven't had huge issues that I've had the opportunity to watch crush my rights here. Hopefully when I come along I'll have more success than you and be able to come back here and give people a positive message instead of "we are screwed and its all *points finger* your fault because of *latest issue*"



You see everything in life is about balance. You seem to care more about what other people think, than about the issue, and your picking the 'other' side rather than sticking with 'us' as you called it.
I know you will disagree and claim your standing for motorcyclists, but seriously read over your posts and maybe instead of JUST looking at people like yourself and motorcycle haters perspective look at the perspectives of the different groups of motorcyclists your clammering to represent, despite not feeling their opinion is worthy of any support let alone voicing.
You can't seriously expect to receive support from the general motorcycling population when your so obviously anti loud (in any form) exhausts if this is the issue being contested.
I mean what happens when something you feel important comes up - say community motorcycling events, or land use- which maybe these riders don't ever visit or care, they will probably be laughing if you asked for their support.
If we take this forum as an example half the people here like their loud exhaust and really enjoy them. You just lost half your supporters if you honestly can't try and represent them, even if your only representing them as a perspective, not one you agree with, but one that should be considered.

From what I see the people trying to do the nasty things we dislike to motorcyclists have won the first battle, if we can't unite on an issue we can't fight back, and generally politicians and the people who use them know how to make sure an issue splits the community to try and force it through. See they don't even need to motivate people to take up their cause, all they need to do is make sure no one HAS the motivation to do anything against them.

Anyway after this long post I'm feeling much calmer, please lay off the racist slurs in the future though.


<Note: '..........' mid quote represent shortened quotes due to the maximum post size limit>

Dont call people racist because you disagree with them. Its bannable around here.

 

[Bruce McCrary]

Dont call people racist because you disagree with them. Its bannable around here.

Steve,

I'm sure he didn't mean anything by it and was simply trying to make a point to me. FWIW, I was not, nor am I offended by his remark and would encourage the moderators not to give this a second thought. I'm sure the comment was made in the spirit of the debate.

Bruce

 

[Bruce McCrary]

Concerning the 96 db reading 20" from the exhaust and a few feet off the ground, is the angle a set angle from the outlet? I can just see it being affected by the type of exhaust, ie ours directs pretty much straight back so something a few feet off the ground would get it pointing right at it, where a shorty exhaust, for example, points upwards and could be directed over the db reader depending on positioning, allowing them some extra wiggle room. Also, I have never heard of skippy being a slur either, I have a jar of it in my cupboard right now.

I'm running late to leave for work so I can't find and post a link showing the testing methods for you, but if you want to look on the AMA site I'm sure they would be there.

But to answer your question, it is a set angle to one side of the centerline of the bike. I say one side because there was some discussion about changing it from being a pre-set side, to the opposite side of the exhaust outlet. On a center up design I guess it really wouldn't matter.

Bruce

 

[FZ1inNH]

Thanks Bruce, in advance, if you can locate the testing information. It would help a great deal if people knew how to test their own before the police stop and test for them.

I got my P4 tip for the Two Bros can. Quite a bit smaller opening. I intend to take video of before and after the install. I'll have to catch up with Reiobard for a db test though as he's the only non-LEO I know with a device to test.