who would you vote for and why?

[FZ1inNH]

It is civil because this forum demands it remain that way. If not, we mods will close the thread.

So, thank you ALL for keeping this a healthy debate! Good job to remain cool, calm and constructive! Keep going because I'm 100% intrigued by the thought processes going on in here.

I don't like to get into political or religious debates but I love to listen, read and watch.

 

[mdr]

It is civil because this forum demands it remain that way. If not, we mods will close the thread.

So, thank you ALL for keeping this a healthy debate! Good job to remain cool, calm and constructive! Keep going because I'm 100% intrigued by the thought processes going on in here.

I don't like to get into political or religious debates but I love to listen, read and watch.

Thanks to the mods for your patience with us and for providing the place to have this debate. Hate to act like a post wh*re but this discussion is one of the best I've heard in a long while. Now I'm going to have to take a break for a real :iconbeer: and come up with some responses. Maybe after the election dako, wolf and I can get together to toast the FZ6 with our favorite beverage and ponder what else we can do to save the world from itself opcorn:.

 

[dako81]

Thanks to the mods for your patience with us and for providing the place to have this debate. Hate to act like a post wh*re but this discussion is one of the best I've heard in a long while. Now I'm going to have to take a break for a real :iconbeer: and come up with some responses. Maybe after the election dako, wolf and I can get together for a beer and ponder what else we can do to save the world from itself opcorn:.

Yea, thanks mods! But yea, we're active members here and don't want to do any name calling, we're trying to build the community! I agree with the above. We should plan a meet up where we can! But, unless it's on or after next July 7th, or a law gets changed, I won't be having any beer ...........HA

But I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to change anyone's mind here, that's not how I am, I just want to discuss and see different points of view, and hope someone may see mine. So thanks!

 

[mdr]

We should plan a meet up where we can! But, unless it's on or after next July 7th, or a law gets changed, I won't be having any beer ...........HA

Sorry dako - I changed it from beer to "favorite beverage". I'll take a virgin Strawberry Smoothie - what're you having?

 

[dako81]

Sorry dako - change that from beer to "favorite beverage". I'll take a virgin Strawberry Smoothie - what're you having?

I was thinking mountain dew slushie!

 

[wolfc70]

Thanks to the mods for your patience with us and for providing the place to have this debate. Hate to act like a post wh*re but this discussion is one of the best I've heard in a long while. Now I'm going to have to take a break for a real :iconbeer: and come up with some responses. Maybe after the election dako, wolf and I can get together to toast the FZ6 with our favorite beverage and ponder what else we can do to save the world from itself opcorn:.

Yea, thanks mods! But yea, we're active members here and don't want to do any name calling, we're trying to build the community! I agree with the above. We should plan a meet up where we can! But, unless it's on or after next July 7th, or a law gets changed, I won't be having any beer ...........HA

But I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to change anyone's mind here, that's not how I am, I just want to discuss and see different points of view, and hope someone may see mine. So thanks!

Ditto.

Great discussion, thanks everyone.

Mdr, where is Portsmouth in VA. I might be traveling to King George in September to visit an old friend. I am always looking to meet others on this forum. So if it is not too far, maybe arrange a meet along with any other FZer's in VA? Trip is not 100% set yet, waiting for work to approve the time off.

 

[mdr]

<snip>

I didn't ask about unwilling participants. I asked about those who will choose not to participate at all. What should happen to them? What if they do advocate the overthrow of the current government by force? Should they go to jail because they disagree with the current gang in office? The founding fathers said there should be a revolution every 20 years or less.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - J.F.K., 1962

Oh and every government ever in history has failed, because people are kept from realizing some of the values illustrated here.

First question "should they go to jail" - answer yes. You'll of course recognize that my choice of words was a paraphrase of the legal definition of treason. I'm ok with upholding that law.

I don't know which founding father you're referring to. I'd be happy to learn more, since you're offering a quote from a supposedly respected source, let's have a name and if possible a reference we can read on the web.

Kennedy I can agree with. But I don't think he was referring to the USA when he said that - but I could be wrong since I'm not a Kennedy follower and I can't find any links to the full speech that quote was taken from.

The flash presentation was very good. Well worth watching. However, it is obvious to me that the organization who made the video advocates change by peaceful means, not armed revolution. Thanks for sharing that one.

 

[mdr]

Ditto.

Great discussion, thanks everyone.

Mdr, where is Portsmouth in VA. I might be traveling to King George in September to visit an old friend. I am always looking to meet others on this forum. So if it is not too far, maybe arrange a meet along with any other FZer's in VA? Trip is not 100% set yet, waiting for work to approve the time off.

Hi Wolf! We're near the ocean just north of North Carolina. About as S.E. as you can get in Virginia. If that's the city of King George outside Fredricksburg you're about 133 miles away from me. You're just about 10 miles away from some nice roads. Not hardcore twisties, but they're fun even at legal speeds.

Let me know and we'll try to work something out.

 

[mdr]

Well lets see. Clinton came in during a economic boom, tech stocks were starting to take off, the S&L scandal was becoming a distant memory as was Black Monday and people were in good spirits. The economy during that time could handle the tax rate. The current economy can not. The Republicans held virtaully every other office during the Clinton years, so his massive spending plans never got through. Also during the 1990's China and India were not strong players in the manufacturing and engineering side of production. Jobs were still being created here in the States.

Wolf,
Either you lived through this period like I did or you've done some good research. Hard to argue those points. I've often thought that Clinton benefited a lot from the work Bush 41 did.

Our current situation is very different. Busisnesses can move jobs and manufacturing over seas very easily, taking valuable jobs with them.

Yes, primarily as a result of a Republican President and Republican Congress giving tax breaks to those that did move jobs overseas. Every try to get a computer support guy that speaks English without an Indian accent? Hard to blame Clinton for that one.

We need fiscal and social policies that encourage economic development in this country.

Couldn't agree more. And anyone who thinks Obama won't do that is listening too much to McCain and not enough to Obama. How bout we let the candidates speak for themselves for a change.

Over regualting and government meddeling has killed new growth.


As we are seeing with China and the Olympics, our air is not that bad. Yet we are still trying to pass legislation that tightens emissions.

Umm. Not quite getting your point here. You want our air to be MORE like China's? I personally don't think that would be a good thing. EPA regs are part of what has kept our air better - I'd rather stick with a winner.

You CAN choke off growth through over regulation. Companies can just send the work to China and India where there are no regulations. These "clean air acts" and regulations are nothing more than a tax.

See above, I agree to disagree.

COMPANIES DO NOT PAY TAXES, CONSUMERS PAY TAXES. Companies just pass the tax and other fees on to the people who buy their goods/services.

Don't shout - I agree with you on this one already.

As my economics proffessor stated: If you have any understanding of the Global Economy, you will fear a Democratic President. And he is VERY liberal, but understands what the Dems are trying to do, and is scared.
Read this: Stock Market Bull Clinton

A Quote: "Under our Constitution the congress, not the president, spends the taxpayer's money. It was democrat congresses that spent this country into near bankruptcy during the 1980's. It was republican congresses since 1994 that reigned in the rate of growth of irresponsible democrat spending. Recall that Item Number One of the republicans' much maligned Contract with America was to force a balanced budget through a Constitutional amendment, which Clinton adamantly opposed. It was tax cuts — not the 1993 Clinton-democrat congress tax increase — that stimulated the economic boom about which Clinton and Gore like to boast, along the way increasing tax revenue paid into the treasury for the democrats to spend."

With all due respect to your unattributed quote, it's not accurate. The president makes the budget and submits it to congress. Congress can approve the budget (or not - been there done that - government shutdown). Once approved or "authorized" by congress in the form of appropriations bills, the president signs (or vetoes) the bills and implements the budget - ie actually spends it (or not). I worked for the Navy under every president from Carter to GW Bush and I can attest that it's the president that has the final word in spending (EDIT:with the exception of entitlement programs). Whether this is good or bad is debatable. Reagan often gets credit (in DoD circles) for spending the Soviet Union into oblivion with his defense buildup. Cheaper than a war, but man it was hella expensive. And speaking of presidents that created huge debt loads for your children to pay off, can we talk a little about how well Bush43 has done with the balanced budget? Be glad to delve further into that one...

 

[wolfc70]

No I think our air is clean enough. The trickle down emission regulations shoul have done their job now. But our air really has not become any cleaner in past decade. I just do not want those to tighten further. We can only do so much in the scope of world pollution. Keep ours clean and safe, but not to the point where the cost exceeds the benefit. Current emissions controls add about $4000 on to the cost of a new auto. I think that is enough, thank you.

The quote is from the article, I think I may have deleted that saying when I was proofreading. Oops.

Yes I am going to The King George that is near Fredericksburg, I am still debating on taking the cage or the FZ. I can usually make it there in the cage in about 14 hours. The Fz's stock seat is my concern. After a 400 mile day I can hardly sit down, so I can feel the pain after a few 500 mile days! Ouch! I am experimenting with seat covers, so I hope I can come up with a solution by then.

 

[mdr]

No I think our air is clean enough. The trickle down emission regulations shoul have done their job now. But our air really has not become any cleaner in past decade. I just do not want those to tighten further. We can only do so much in the scope of world pollution. Keep ours clean and safe, but not to the point where the cost exceeds the benefit. Current emissions controls add about $4000 on to the cost of a new auto. I think that is enough, thank you.

I agree with you totally on the principle of cost and benefit being in balance. But $4000? There are a lot of good new cars in the $15k to $20k range. You're telling me that 1/3 to 1/4 of the retail cost is emissions control? That has my BS detector ringing. $400 I could agree with - but $4000????

The quote is from the article, I think I may have deleted that saying when I was proofreading. Oops.

Sorry - I must confess to not reading it yet. I will correct that sin of omission. :spank: EDIT: Ok. I read the article. My objection to the factual errors in it stands. Also, I am unimpressed by the info on stock market performance. There are just too many other factors besides government at work in market performance to use that as a metric for the "worth" of an administration or congress. As to Kyoto and the article's objection to regulations on air quality and global warming - even your candidate (McCain still I hope) has acknowledged that global warming is a problem. You and I will probably argue about what the best solution is to correct it, but I think the jury is no longer out as to whether it's "Real" or not.

Yes I am going to The King George that is near Fredericksburg, I am still debating on taking the cage or the FZ. I can usually make it there in the cage in about 14 hours. The Fz's stock seat is my concern. After a 400 mile day I can hardly sit down, so I can feel the pain after a few 500 mile days! Ouch! I am experimenting with seat covers, so I hope I can come up with a solution by then.

Yikes - I just looked at the route you'd be taking. It's not just long - it's through hostile territory (Chicago is Obama-land). :justkidding: I'll understand if you take the cage. Let me know anyway - would like to meet you.

 

[mdr]

I would love to loose Social Security. I am planning on my own retirement, and so far doing very well. I would love to see Medicare/Medicade gone. Along with Welfare and numerous other programs that prevent people from working. Government programs will always be manipulted by the bottom feeders, who are constantly looking for a handout or are busy being "victims". My money is my money, the governments should only take what they need to run. The rest is mine, not some guy down the street who is too lazy to find a job, but still keeps getting unemployment. There are so many programs that are sucking up money that could actually do something constructive. The over bloated governement needs to be trimmed.

Obama is running the largest campaign ever run by a canidate. You don't think that will transfer over to his Presidency? I want to know what change, and what hope he will bring. If he can come up with SOME form of substance, then I may change my vote.

Forget Obama. Forget McCain. The guy you want is Ron Paul.

PS: Even though I retired from Civil Service I worked a good while in the private sector and I paid into both Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. I hope you don't think they should be lumped in as "welfare" programs. To the extent people get out something they put in - it can hardly be called welfare.

And not all true welfare recipients are "bottom feeders". I find it difficult to apply that label to children. Or the handicapped. Or to people who can't work because they have to take care of their elderly parents etc.
I do agree there are abuses and too many people take the "victim" route instead of being proactive.

"The government is best which governs least." This has been attributed to both Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine. Whoever said it, it remains an interesting ideal. I'm hoping Obama won't expand the government as much as GW Bush did.

 

[mdr]

.
< snip >

Most Importantly:
How about cutting spending to what they actually take in for starters, and MAKE THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT THEY SPEND. Then cut intake and make sure they're still accountable for what they spend. Now there is no accountability, and that's a really big part of the problem. There are many people who have worked for a major government contractor, or the armed services who would be happy to tell you about how much money is wasted on stupid things (like throwing tools overboard, or overcharging for services).

Sorry for not wanting to parry each individual thrust in your reply. It appears we're too far apart to have much chance of changing the other's mind. I am surprised that you've managed to accumulate such a wealth of cynicism and distrust in such a short time. Takes most folks 30 or 40 years. You see the government as an unnecessary evil, I see it as a necessary one. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

As to accountability, congress actually had an accountability law not that long ago. The Gramm / Rudman / Hollings Act was in force when I was working as a petty bureaucrat. What happened to it? How did we let Bush43 write checks his revenue couldn't cover? Is that what you meant by accountability or did I miss something? You did mean hold them accountable by voting them (Republicans) out of office didn't you? Help me out here...

 

[dako81]

...I am surprised that you've managed to accumulate such a wealth of cynicism and distrust in such a short time. Takes most folks 30 or 40 years. You see the government as an unnecessary evil, I see it as a necessary one. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

...

Well, I usually don't take things when presented at face value. I look into things before I believe what someone's really trying to tell me, and I ask myself why are they trying to tell me this. So it really didn't take too much thinking outside the box, or looking past the propoganda to come to where I'm at today.

I agree to disagree, and even if you disagree with me, I'd help defend you against someone who wanted to hurt you for not believing what they wanted you to. Repecting my neighbors choices was something that makes life a lot easier that I've learned the past couple of years.

 

[wolfc70]

Government is not evil, just too much government. We need some form of government, just it should not be noticeable in everyday life. I think it should be my choice to decide which light bulbs to buy, not some mandate. Same with ethanol. The market place should decide by supply and demand.

The $4000 dollar quote was from Car and Driver way back in April of 1995. This was just as OBD II regulations were being implemented. I'm sure it is even more expensive now that SULEV is mandatory. The Tier III regulations on diesels is even more, since urea injection systems are even more expensive. Mercedes said it costs about $7000 per diesel BlueTec vehicle to meet our regulations. The catalytic converter on my 1998 Nissan Altima cost $1400 just for the cat. Installation was closer to $2000. So I think the $4000 mark is pretty close once production volume is factored in.

Here is the quote from Car and Driver: "The bill for all of this , naturally, gets passed along. The cost of emissions control equipment added to a new car through the 1994 model year averages $4010, according to data supplied by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and corrected for 1994 dollars."

Airbags add another $1200-2200 depending on vehicle, so government regs add a significant portion to the bottom line.

Yes, there is global warming. We in the U.S. can only do so much. Picture a line of chimps lined up shortest to tallest. These are the majority of countries global pollution. Then put in India and China, who by comparison are gorillas. These two countries skew the rest so far off the scale it is not even funny. The Kyoto Protocol is a good thing, but of India and China are not joining, why put more cost on U.S. companies when the real pollution is not developed on our soils. Our air is already fairly clean.

 

[wolfc70]

Forget Obama. Forget McCain. The guy you want is Ron Paul.

PS: Even though I retired from Civil Service I worked a good while in the private sector and I paid into both Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. I hope you don't think they should be lumped in as "welfare" programs. To the extent people get out something they put in - it can hardly be called welfare.

And not all true welfare recipients are "bottom feeders". I find it difficult to apply that label to children. Or the handicapped. Or to people who can't work because they have to take care of their elderly parents etc.
I do agree there are abuses and too many people take the "victim" route instead of being proactive.

"The government is best which governs least." This has been attributed to both Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine. Whoever said it, it remains an interesting ideal. I'm hoping Obama won't expand the government as much as GW Bush did.

Some sectors of society are going to need assistance, it is just a fact of dealing with a civilized society. That does not mean that those who need it should be cast aside, just more control of who is collecting funds.

As for Social Security, I am paying in too, but me being 29 years old, I will never (likely) collect on it. So I would rather have that money go into my 401k. I have no problem with people collecting if you need it. If you are lucky enough to have a pension or some other form of retirement money, you should not be able to collect. Unfair? Yes, but sooner or later the money will run out. The Boomers are going to run it dry. I do not want 60% or more of my paycheck going to pay for a failing system. As the Boomers retire and get old(er), my generation is going to experience massive debt, unlike anything this country has ever seen. I am afraid of the future, health care, nursing homes, and many other industries could be bankrupted by the boomers aging. I just have a feeling this is going to be a mess. Time to move to Canada!:justkidding:


And as for traveling to VA, yes Chicago is a pain, but so is changing a flat tire on the Dan Ryan expressway during rush hour! If there was a better route I would take it. Chicago traffic can suck, especially with all of the construction going on>

 

[mdr]

Government is not evil, just too much government. We need some form of government, just it should not be noticeable in everyday life. I think it should be my choice to decide which light bulbs to buy, not some mandate. Same with ethanol. The market place should decide by supply and demand.

The $4000 dollar quote was from Car and Driver way back in April of 1995. This was just as OBD II regulations were being implemented. I'm sure it is even more expensive now that SULEV is mandatory. The Tier III regulations on diesels is even more, since urea injection systems are even more expensive. Mercedes said it costs about $7000 per diesel BlueTec vehicle to meet our regulations. The catalytic converter on my 1998 Nissan Altima cost $1400 just for the cat. Installation was closer to $2000. So I think the $4000 mark is pretty close once production volume is factored in.

Here is the quote from Car and Driver: "The bill for all of this , naturally, gets passed along. The cost of emissions control equipment added to a new car through the 1994 model year averages $4010, according to data supplied by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and corrected for 1994 dollars."

Airbags add another $1200-2200 depending on vehicle, so government regs add a significant portion to the bottom line.

Yes, there is global warming. We in the U.S. can only do so much. Picture a line of chimps lined up shortest to tallest. These are the majority of countries global pollution. Then put in India and China, who by comparison are gorillas. These two countries skew the rest so far off the scale it is not even funny. The Kyoto Protocol is a good thing, but of India and China are not joining, why put more cost on U.S. companies when the real pollution is not developed on our soils. Our air is already fairly clean.

Wolf,
Thanks for clearing up the source of the $4000. I think I can tell you why it's not $4000 any more. Most of the big costs for retooling for emissions controls are gone after the first model year that has the change. Take fuel injection for instance. In order to reduce emissions lots of car and motorcycle makers had to throw out carbs and go to FI. HD for instance in the MC world. Big redesign costs. Big inventory and schedule changes and marketing costs because of it. But now that the vehicle has FI instead of carbs most of those costs are done with. And they're being amortized over more vehicles as the years pass. And it's not even all due to our evil (not!) EPA.

To be even more specific, the newest Kawasaki 250 has carbs in the US, but overseas it has FI to meet more stringent emissions regs of other countries (EU particularly I believe). The US still gives manufacturers a break on smaller engines but I expect that to change in the future. When that changes and FI is required on 250cc and under in the US the "extra cost" of the new emissions compliant Kawasaki 250 model will be essentially ZERO because the Europeans will have paid for the R&D and retooling! Carb model costs $3500. What does the FI model cost? Anyone out there have one?

Anyway, my point is that even though smog control might have cost $4000 for an average car in 1994 I suspect the cost is a lot less now. And besides, anyone else remember what Los Angeles smog looked like in the '80s? Want to go back there? Not me!

And the "cat" cost is typical of buying individual parts instead of an assembled vehicle. Inventory and distribution cost on individual vehicle parts is frequently much bigger than material and production cost. I feel your pain, but c'est la vie.

 

[mdr]

And as for traveling to VA, yes Chicago is a pain, but so is changing a flat tire on the Dan Ryan expressway during rush hour! If there was a better route I would take it. Chicago traffic can suck, especially with all of the construction going on>

I'm not an expert in that part of the world but in 2006 I found that from Indianapolis it was a good deal easier to take US 24 west to IL 47 north to where I bought my GS500F in Crystal Lake IL. Made the mistake of returning thru Chicago. Bad Idea

24/47 is rural with a stop light here and there as you get closer to Chicago. Chicago was a parking lot and I'm no stranger to traffic.

 

[mdr]

As for Social Security, I am paying in too, but me being 29 years old, I will never (likely) collect on it. So I would rather have that money go into my 401k. I have no problem with people collecting if you need it. If you are lucky enough to have a pension or some other form of retirement money, you should not be able to collect. Unfair? Yes, but sooner or later the money will run out. The Boomers are going to run it dry. I do not want 60% or more of my paycheck going to pay for a failing system. As the Boomers retire and get old(er), my generation is going to experience massive debt, unlike anything this country has ever seen. I am afraid of the future, health care, nursing homes, and many other industries could be bankrupted by the boomers aging. I just have a feeling this is going to be a mess. Time to move to Canada!:justkidding:

Wolf,
Why in the sam hill are you paying 60% payroll tax? When I was working outside the government Social Security was only about 6.5% . Maybe you're working for the wrong company if they're ripping you off like that...

PS: I actually think an individual SHOULD be able to opt out of social security if you want to but it'd have to be a one-time one-way deal. Shhh. Please don't tell any of my liberal friends. :steve:

 

[wolfc70]

Wolf,
Why in the sam hill are you paying 60% payroll tax? When I was working outside the government Social Security was only about 6.5% . Maybe you're working for the wrong company if they're ripping you off like that...

No that number is a hypothetical. During one of my economics classes we came up with a "rate" of which will cover the increasing Social Security costs. That is what SS tax will be in 2029 if nothing in SS changes.