"Yamaha really missed the mark with the FZ6"

[abacall]

the dealer i go to has people that sell bikes, but no sales people...

I walked into several dealerships in the area and 90% are like this guy. Talk a lot of smack, but when you ask them about details they fall apart. An educated consumer is their worst enemy.

One day, I walked into a local Suzuki dealership. They have a "used bike" sales floor as well. They had a gem of a 03 GSXR 1300. It was a beauty. I was walking around looking at it when a guy came out to talk to me. "Here we go, " I thought. He started with the normal "nice bike huh?" line.
Then he asked me what bike I had, I showed him the Fizzer. He was really excited, and asked me to go take a look at it. Turns out he was a English guy who had one a few years ago but had to let it go when he moved here. Then we started talking about the Kawi. He said, "Don't buy it, I want it. If it sits one more day, it's coming home with me. Besides, for the kind of riding you like, the Fazer suits your needs perfectly."
Good guy. They will have my business in the future.

 

[Bates121]

Honestly, there is probably more mark-up on those other models than on the FZ, and therefore he gets a better commission. Sad that he would do this, but in these economic times, very likely.

Sad but very good point

 

[CrazyBiker]

No, no, those aren't my words...

So I was at a big bike dealer by my house just looking at some of the newer bikes that have come out (looking to get another comfortable sporty ~600cc bike for my wife) and started talking to one of the salesmen. I told him what I was interested in and he showed me all the bikes that fit into that category (SV650, Ninja 650R, Gladius, etc). Now as he was suggesting and showing me all these bikes, I noticed he didn't mention the FZ6 (I didn't tell him I already had one).

To see what he'd say, I asked him, "Wouldn't an FZ6 fit into this category, and if so, what do you think about it?"

His reply was, "At the 600cc point, the twins are much better. Yamaha really missed the mark with the FZ6. The FZ6 was made to compete in a segment where it doesn't really belong. Since you have a smaller displacement (600cc vs 1000cc), the twin engines make up for it by giving more torque in the low to mid range. Throwing an inline-four engine just takes away so much power. The only way to make up that power is to rev the crap out of it. It makes sense having an inline-four in the bigger displacement bikes (over 1000cc), because they make up the power loss with the bigger engine. The FZ6 shoots itself in the foot twice... not only does it have a lower displacement engine, but it also cuts the power again by making it a four cylinder. If you're looking at the 600cc bikes, a twin is the only thing I would go with."

Now I understand what he's talking about in regards to the power loss in the lower rpms, but he took his point pretty far. He really made it seem like the FZ6 is an inferior machine compared to the other bikes. If I was an uneducated first-time buyer, I would totally steer clear of an FZ6 after how he talked about it. Just upsets me that people are being pulled away from such a great bike... because I've heard people say that about the FZ6 (but not quite to that extent). And what else gets me is that every "motorcycle shootout" that I read online from professional magazines and such almost always have the FZ6 come out on top. And anytime I've read people's responses to the "650R vs SV650 vs FZ6" threads (here and on other forums), ironically people always say, "Get the FZ6 it has much more power" lol.

Anyway, thought I'd share the story with you guys. Also, this place has tons of bikes from all the manufactures. They actually had several FZ6's in stock, so it wasn't like a small Honda shop that only wanted me to buy a Honda.

PS... I love my FZ6! :thumbup:

-Taso

Can you post the shootout links here? Of all I have read the FZ6 never came out of top. Somehow everyone hates Yamaha. Neither the R6 or R1 have came up tops.

It is basically what you like. Do you love torque and good midrange all the time or do you like Dr. Jekyl & Mr. Hyde character. FZ6 falls in the later which removes the fun to some extent. FZ6 with lower sprocket, PCIII, exhaust, dynotune is a different business though but still will not come close to twin cylinder midrange torque. If you want a torquey engine other than a twin then go for a triple engine or the CBR I4 engines. I can say this now since I also own a FZ1. Litre power is the best for all sorts of riding IMO especially for 2up. Other thing that struck me is that FZ1 handles so better than the FZ6. I can imagine why people like the SVs and 650Rs. They made the FZ6 frontend too protruding. I always have to make it follow the line in a curve even with R6 suspension. FZ1 just rails and does so much smoothly and inspires confidence.

Test ride is key! Don't ever buy a bike without test riding lots of them.

 

[DaveOTZ]

OK... I have found this thread to be kind of interesting...
Brings up some questions for a noob (sorry to hijack a thread)

So, I got my 04 based on the ergonomics, bigger bike than I had, THE CONDITION, and a great price (heated grips sealed it)

When I heard I4 I had reasoned (after a 1cyl 200cc) that I may get more miles (life) out of her...
So I'm asking why is an I4 so different from a V-twin?
I understand the whole heap of power on the low end, but can anyone tell me why?

I have been very happy with this bike as a commuter and a weekend rider, but most of my experience is on a scooter and various standards... so this has also been my first sporty experience.

 

[Hellgate]

OK... I have found this thread to be kind of interesting...
Brings up some questions for a noob (sorry to hijack a thread)

So, I got my 04 based on the ergonomics, bigger bike than I had, THE CONDITION, and a great price (heated grips sealed it)

When I heard I4 I had reasoned (after a 1cyl 200cc) that I may get more miles (life) out of her...
So I'm asking why is an I4 so different from a V-twin?
I understand the whole heap of power on the low end, but can anyone tell me why?

I have been very happy with this bike as a commuter and a weekend rider, but most of my experience is on a scooter and various standards... so this has also been my first sporty experience.

Good question Dave.

V-Twins and In Line Fours make power in a different manner in that the power and torque is developed over a different rpm spread. Typically a VT will rev out at 9,500 rpm, where as a modern I4 will rev out to about 13,000 rpm. As a result the VT will have more lower end punch where as the I4 makes power up high because the VT builds power over fewer rpms. Remember this all relative.

For example here's a dyno chart that compares to 1000cc VTs to a 600cc I4 SS bike. Granted the VTs are liter bikes but this illustrates how a VT builds more power with fewer revs.
View attachment 16514

Now here's my opinion, I4 bikes are GREAT! Twins are GREAT! That said I'd rather own a bike like the SV650 with a VT vs. the Ninja 650 with a parallel twin. That is just me. The Kawi PTs are great engines, I just don't care for them. They remind me of a water pump motor...

Did this help or did I muddy the waters?

 

[DaveOTZ]

Did this help or did I muddy the waters?

Little A Little B...
So here's where I risk stupid question category...
The idea of two cyls the same total size as the total size of our 4 would make sense to produce the same amount of power at different parts of the spectrum... Is that the gist of it? and in that case wouldn't a PT have all the downsides of both configurations?

Also, since we rev higher (I spend most of my 30 minute commute in 2nd) will our engines not last as long?

PS-This crew has been an amazing resource for this NOOB!

 

[tuningfork]

V-twin (or parallel twin) has a bigger piston and typically longer stroke (in order to get desired displacement with fewer cylinders), this develops lots of TQ..think bigger explosion force in the cylinder combined with a longer lever arm.

However, HP (ie "work") is a function of TQ generated X rpms..those bigger/heavier pistons traveling over a longer stroke cannot spin as fast (there are greater piston speeds which make a lot of force on internal parts) as a shorter stroke, lighter piston in an I4..so the peak HP is limited because even though the TQ is strong, the rpms are mechanically limited. There are also airflow issues which can limit peak TQ as well.

Comparing the FZ6 to say the SV or Kawi 650 twin, The I4 produces less peak TQ but because it can rev higher and holds TQ pretty well across the rev range, has the potential to (and does :rockon: ) make a lot more HP. IMO because we have a GEARBOX the TQ to the wheel can be compensated for to get the desired performance. In other words the motor on the FZ "should" be run at a bit higher rpms. Even in the manual looking at shift points (which are usually really conservative), they don't even suggest 6th gear until like 54mph.

Seems a lot of magazines compare dynos which are usesful to show how the engines make power...but that doesn't tell the whole story unless both bikes have the same gearing and the same working rpm range. Which I suppose if someone test rode both bikes in the same manner (speeds, gears, etc.) might walk away thinking one felt stronger than the other given teh particular situation. For me I don't mind a couple of extra gearclicks knowing that there is a larger performance range available. I guess if I did a lot of noodling around in the city I would change the sprockets for even more low-end grunt..but I find the FZ6 works great as is for my riding style.

I think the twins are a nice option for lower weight, possibly simpler design/maintenance, more compact size, lower cost, and power delivery/handling style that might suit someone who needs to operate at lower rpms...ie new riders, adventure touring, trail riding, etc.

A parallel twin works pretty much liek a Vtwin, it is just packaging. There are differnt vibration and thremal characteristics though.

I would not worry about longevity of the I4 even though it revs higher...internal stresses, thermal management, overall design/quality of components (and good service history) matter much more IMO. And you KNOW with Yamaha it is a well made piece. :thumbup:

 

[LERecords]

no the engine will be fine.. just make sure you do proper maint at the correct intervels and you should be fine..


and yes, "The idea of two cyls the same total size as the total size of our 4 would make sense to produce the same amount of power at different parts of the spectrum.."

you are correct.. as for pt.. they do not have "all" of the downsides as they are engineered correctly to take care of the few "downsides"... but still a vt or a i4 would be better suited for your commute

 

[DaveOTZ]

Thanks guys... that really fills in the blurry areas...

I have an irritating need to understand things :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[ReblTeen84]

Thats kinda funny...when I bought mine, i'd gone to the dealer just to see what was out there before taking the MSF class and the new rider orientation. I'd originally gone in looking for a sport bike and the sales guy actually steered me away from them..first bike he pointed me towards was the used FZ. Laid out his reasons too, which impressed me. Riding position, power and comfort. Flat out told me i didn't need a crotch rocket as a first bike. Had mentioned i was also looking at the Kawi ZZR600, he just shy of bad-mouthed them for their reliability, but they didnt carry them their either so that could be it. I wound up buying the FZ that night because of how much i liked it, regardless of the fact that i couldnt ride it (legally) for another 2 weeks since thats when i was signed up for my MSF class. I'm happy with it and definetly glad i didn't get anything else, although the VFR has been catching my eye latetly...ahh well, thats something to look at later on down the road I suppose. A new truck is on the menu first.

 

[LERecords]

. I'd originally gone in looking for a sport bike and the sales guy actually steered me away from them..first bike he pointed me towards was the used FZ. Laid out his reasons too, which impressed me. Riding position, power and comfort. Flat out told me i didn't need a crotch rocket as a first bike.

this is almost the same as what i went through when i bought my fz6 as a first bike... was told i was wasting my money if i bought a r6 after i told him what i was looking to do with the bike...