2004 FZ6 fuel pump failure

[Nelly]

Excellent! Got this thread and your link saved under favorites for later referrel, thank you!!!!

Also, please post the final results (pic's again under the first post) and when she's alive!


Moderators, this IMHO, is worthy of being a STICKY...

Please consider, it'd be a big help to others..... :thumbup:

Stuck as requested

 

[Hayabusafiend]

Did you end up putting a sealer/coating inside the tank?

No. The reverse electrolysis removes red rust without acid. It takes longer, but the final result doesn't require a sealer or coating. I have zero confidence in a sealer or coating lasting long term, meaning decades.

I have restored two 30 year old bikes and have talked to the owners riding their FIFTY year old bikes. Kreem, POR-15 or Caswell in their tanks? Not a chance.

Unfortunately the bike starts, runs for a few seconds, then stalls. I haven't troubleshot it to the fuel pump yet, but that's my suspicion.

I will spray started fluid into the throttle bodies and see if the bike continues running.

New battery. Stock bike.
Air, fuel, compression, spark.
Air: clean air filter
fuel: fresh fuel
compression: bike runs briefly, all four headers get hot
spark: haven't inspected spark plugs yet

Fouled injectors? Maybe, but 50psi fuel should blow anything out.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

No. The reverse electrolysis removes red rust without acid. It takes longer, but the final result doesn't require a sealer or coating. I have zero confidence in a sealer or coating lasting long term, meaning decades.

I have restored two 30 year old bikes and have talked to the owners riding their FIFTY year old bikes. Kreem, POR-15 or Caswell in their tanks? Not a chance.

Unfortunately the bike starts, runs for a few seconds, then stalls. I haven't troubleshot it to the fuel pump yet, but that's my suspicion.

I will spray started fluid into the throttle bodies and see if the bike continues running.

New battery. Stock bike.
Air, fuel, compression, spark.
Air: clean air filter
fuel: fresh fuel
compression: bike runs briefly, all four headers get hot
spark: haven't inspected spark plugs yet

Fouled injectors? Maybe, but 50psi fuel should blow anything out.

Nice to know about being able to NOT USE A SEALER (which I'd prefer if in the same situation).

36.3 PSI is the fuel pressure you should be shooting for... Did you happen to check the fuel filter inside the new pump for any crap? I know you can check PSI at the fuel rail with an adapter (I haven't done it), may be the next step. I can't see all four injectors totally crapping out at the same time (crappy running maybe)

If you had the fuel tank up/off, check the main fuel line as well as the vent and over flow lines for kinking.

Also, a known issue, is the Red kill switch on the right handlebar, its known to fail. It would cause the engine to stop running (but likely isn't the issue here, there is a sticky by-passing it-tie both red lines together).

 

[fazil]

Did you happen to check the fuel filter inside the new pump for any crap?

I've checked it before and i can say that it's clear.

 

[Hayabusafiend]

I've checked it before and i can say that it's clear.

Confirmed. The unit was very clean, and the pump passed a 12VDC bench test and it also primes on the bike. The bike ran when parked and the only failure was the pump unit.

The unit is probably good, but I have to troubleshoot it regardless.

 

[Hayabusafiend]

Nice to know about being able to NOT USE A SEALER (which I'd prefer if in the same situation).

36.3 PSI is the fuel pressure you should be shooting for... Did you happen to check the fuel filter inside the new pump for any crap? I know you can check PSI at the fuel rail with an adapter (I haven't done it), may be the next step. I can't see all four injectors totally crapping out at the same time (crappy running maybe)

If you had the fuel tank up/off, check the main fuel line as well as the vent and over flow lines for kinking.

Also, a known issue, is the Red kill switch on the right handlebar, its known to fail. It would cause the engine to stop running (but likely isn't the issue here, there is a sticky by-passing it-tie both red lines together).

Thanks for the spec. My 50psi was just a guess. I haven't checked the fuel rail and don't have a pressure gauge for it.

All four exhast headers get hot, so I think all injectors are clear. Could they all be partially fouled? Maybe. Haven't considered how to troubleshoot them.

The supply and return lines aren't kinked and the tank has 1 gallon of clean fuel. The tank is angled slightly up so I can look for leaks.

Since it runs briefly, kill switch works.

Does the throttle position sensor need to be initialized when the battery is unplugged? BMW bikes need battery connected, power ON, throttle completely opened and closed TWICE to initialize the TPS.

6K miles. Ran when parked in 2007.
Garaged with 1/4 tank of fuel.
Completely stock.
Tested all fuses. No corrosion.

 

[fazil]

Does the throttle position sensor need to be initialized when the battery is unplugged?

No need.
I've changed the battery twice and never touched TPS.

 

[fazil]

I've searched older posts about bikes sitting for long time.
And found these useful post from other members:

So the good news - The bike is running perfectly. When I first tried starting it before I created this thread, I only cycled the key 2 times. For all I know, it may have just needed to be cycled 5-10 times as suggested for the fuel pump to grab more gas. I figured this was a good chance for more experience working on the bike, and I also didn't want to chance the fuel being bad. I didn't travel down the road of checking for spark or anything like that. I was just figuring it needed gas to just push through the system since it was sitting so long. I also figured that was the case since the gas and inside of the tank looked good.

As I have had this happen twice (due to extended inactivity) I have looked at the fueling layout to see what the problem is. My opinion is that the fuel rail, which is located directly above the injectors, develops a vapor pocket which must be bled off before liquid fuel arrives at the injector inlet valves. The fuel pump/pressure sensor, which is back in the tank, simply sees fuel manifold pressure increase to the set point, and does not distinguish between a solid hydraulic line of gasoline and a vapor bubble which is being compressed by the pump. In other words, it is an open loop instead of a closed loop. So, as you have this vapor bubble sitting in the rail, above the injectors with a supply port on the on the bottom quadrant, the system is injecting unsaturated vapor instead of atomized liquid, at least to start with. As you continue to turn over the motor, the vapor bubble begins to deplete, replaced by liquid gasoline, but very slowly as the injection system is only dispensing a tiny bit of vapor each revolution. 10-20 seconds elapse and the rail begins to have liquid find its way to the injectors and it richens the mixture to the point that combustion starts to happen 1 cylinder at a time. Once it holds ignition on it's own, the purging completes itself and everything is back to normal.

I can't see a way to allow the fuel rail to self prime as the pressure relief valve is located inside the tank and you need to have a way to get liquid to flush through the rail. There is a pulsation damper on the rail but that need to remain to prevent hammering in the system from normal operation. Brazing a piece of tubing and installing a bleed valve would allow purging, but I wouldn't do that as it would be a safety hazard.

Thank you to every one on here from keeping me from spending no telling what, just kept the bike full throttle kept spraying starter fluid into the throttle bodies and it finally sparked to life!

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm a tad late to the game here, but if the tank was that occluded with rust bits I'd speculate the "move" got the debris floating and the first turn of the key locks the pump as rust fills the impeller.

With that in mind - one can assume the fuel rail and injectors are primed with rust bits too. I'd pull them and flush them. how you ask?

100% duty cycle for an injector is 12V DC. Remove the injectors and with a can of spray solvent find a way to connect the cans outlet to the injectors nozzle. An air compressor and compressed air works too. Now apply 12V to the injector to open it - using compressed air/fluid, reverse flow the injector and strainer into a cloth. Hopefully blowing the chunks out. Don't forget to do the fuel rail too.

I've done this on a car to unplug a leaking injector that sucked rust - worked great.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I would put at least another gallon of fuel in the tank, just to make sure your literally not running out of fuel before going any farther...

Something to check, I'd put a test light on the pump connector (still hooked up to the pump). When initially cycling on, obviously the pump should have 12 volts. Once the bike starts, keep an eye on test light, it SHOULD REMAIN POWERED UP, ie, pumping fuel (to at least the fuel rail).

How long does it run before it dies? Maybe a short video if possible?

+1 On the TPS, no need to touch it unless you loosened it/replaced it....


Did you ever get a chance to try spraying something down the Throttle bodies after it started and see if it would keep running?

If you have access to a clamp over wire timing light, clipping it over a plug wire and watching once running should shed some light if the ignition is cutting out..

Good luck...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I'm a tad late to the game here, but if the tank was that occluded with rust bits I'd speculate the "move" got the debris floating and the first turn of the key locks the pump as rust fills the impeller.

With that in mind - one can assume the fuel rail and injectors are primed with rust bits too. I'd pull them and flush them. how you ask?

100% duty cycle for an injector is 12V DC. Remove the injectors and with a can of spray solvent find a way to connect the cans outlet to the injectors nozzle. An air compressor and compressed air works too. Now apply 12V to the injector to open it - using compressed air/fluid, reverse flow the injector and strainer into a cloth. Hopefully blowing the chunks out. Don't forget to do the fuel rail too.

I've done this on a car to unplug a leaking injector that sucked rust - worked great.

Just to add to this, Randy, can he hook up his fuel rail to the wiring and pump fuel out flushing it safely? Just to know for certain the fuel rail/pump, etc is indeed pumping after the initial start cycle?

 

[Hayabusafiend]

I'm a tad late to the game here, but if the tank was that occluded with rust bits I'd speculate the "move" got the debris floating and the first turn of the key locks the pump as rust fills the impeller.

With that in mind - one can assume the fuel rail and injectors are primed with rust bits too. I'd pull them and flush them. how you ask?

100% duty cycle for an injector is 12V DC. Remove the injectors and with a can of spray solvent find a way to connect the cans outlet to the injectors nozzle. An air compressor and compressed air works too. Now apply 12V to the injector to open it - using compressed air/fluid, reverse flow the injector and strainer into a cloth. Hopefully blowing the chunks out. Don't forget to do the fuel rail too.

I've done this on a car to unplug a leaking injector that sucked rust - worked great.

Thanks for the flush details. I will start with assuming the fuel rail is filled with vapor, not liquid fuel and see if I can keep it running enough for the rail to fill. (That begs the question of the factory and dealers process to get new bikes running. There should be a bleed screw, but it might not have one.)

If that fails, the next step is removing and flushing the injectors.

 

[Hayabusafiend]

I took a page from the Super Tenere non-start troubleshooting. The recommendation is hold the throttle wide open, hold the starter for 20 seconds, and let go of the throttle. The FZ6 fired right up.

(Yes, the starter should not be run for more than a few seconds at a time to prevent overheating. I began with a stone cold starter and did this ONCE.)

The good news is it started and I could get it to 4K rpm.
Bad news is it's acting like is running very lean. Poor part throttle response. Dies at anything above about 10% throttle.

Very likely the fuel injectors are rust fouled, so I'll refer to the previous post and apply 12 VDC to the injectors and reverse flush them with compressed air and perhaps also carb cleaner.

 

[FinalImpact]

Just to add to this, Randy, can he hook up his fuel rail to the wiring and pump fuel out flushing it safely? Just to know for certain the fuel rail/pump, etc is indeed pumping after the initial start cycle?

Yes you could make a makeshift harness but we know the pump works so I'd focus on ONE AT A TIME for safety reasons as GAS VAPOR is clearly bad idea from the flammability aspect. As is using alligator clips to connect to pump and injectors (= SPARKS) HAVE A HELPER DO THIS FROM A DISTANCE AT THE OTHER END USING JUMPER CABLES if you choose that path.

Although you could go to the hardware store and buy at clear hose that will fit over the injector outlet. This will at least allow the vapor to settle into a solid and return to pan.

As for coating the fresh tank. I think the OEM as delivered is just bare so it really comes down to keeping the moisture out to prevent the rust from taking off again. Of course this one has a predisposition to rust having a jump start like it does.

 

[fazil]

Any update?

 

[Hayabusafiend]

Haven't had a free weekend to remove and clean the injectors.
Tank is off.
Air box is off.
Fuel rail and air balance phillips screws are soft brass and torqued by a gorilla.
Patience required.

 

[Hayabusafiend]

Got the tight screws off using a trick for removing damaged carb float bowl screws: use vice grips on the screw head, while also twisting with a screwdriver.

The fuel rail was completely clean. Zero signs of rust.
All 4 injectors open with an audible click with 12VDC applied.
Zero signs of rust in the injectors.

My 8mo son was sleeping, so I couldn't use the air compressor to reverse flush the injectors.

After the reverse flush, I'll probably set up a bench rig to forward test the injectors under pressure with air, and likely also water.

I don't think the injectors are the issue. There's no rust debris at all.

Photos will be posted later.

 

[Hayabusafiend]

I didn't get any rust or debris in the fuel injector back flush. The forward flush with water and 30psi air shows good spray pattern from all 4 holes on each injector. The #1 injector didn't flow well at all with just air. After a water flush, all are very good.

The injector rail is mounted. Perhaps an engine test this weekend. Hope it runs smoothly.

Haven't checked the spark plugs yet.

Pics will be added to the first page.

 

[Hayabusafiend]

Okay, I got some free time to troubleshoot the 2004 FZ6.

After the fuel injector and rail cleaning (they didn't need cleaning - they were perfectly clean), same problem as my March 22 post: Bike starts, runs for a few seconds and stalls.

With key ON and kill switch ON, the fuel pump primes for a few seconds, and stops pumping. I hear the pump running again when the engine is turning over.

It runs cleanly with starter fluid sprayed into the airbox. I don't have a pressure gauge to test the used fuel pump I bought from Fazil.
Again, perfectly stock 2004 FZ6. 6K miles.
Added pics to the first page.

Ideas:
WHERE is the pressure regulator?
Idle set way too low? (I find this to be highly unlikely)
I don't know if this bike had the throttle position sensor recall. Reading http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...ou-experiencing-poor-idle-mileage-stalls.html to test it now.

Edit: TPS passes tests. 16-100 in single increments. Press SELECT & RESET for 2 seconds and keep pressing. Turn key ON. Keep pressing SELECT & RESET for 8 more seconds until "diAG" is displayed. Release both for 2 seconds. Press SELECT & RESET again for another 8 seconds until "d01:" is displayed. TPS values should be between 16 and 100 and increment smoothly as the throttle is twisted to wide open.

That leaves a bad pressure regulator (if I can find it), another bad fuel pump delivering low fuel pressure, low idle setting, other?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

On page 7-29 of the 04-06 Yamaha (US version) it shows testing the fuel pressure on the left side of the bike/fuel rail: "(Connect the pressure gauge 1 and adapter 2 onto the fuel injection pipe)"

It further states if it fails, "replace the fuel pump" which leads me to believe the regulator is part of the fuel pump.

I also found in the shop manual, the Ca version FZ has a "roll over valve" that goes into the bottom of the fuel tank(right side as you sit on the bike). You may try disconnecting that, (if its clogged, it'd cause issues-I don't think this is the issue, it'd likely run longer before having a vapor lock.

A bad TPS will generally not act as your bike is. There was a re-call on the bike, you can call your dealer and check the VIN# and see if it was replaced (or was even in the recall).

It may be posted somewhere, but did your dash throw any fault codes? Can you check the history (any codes are supposed to be stored until deleted) for any remaining codes?.

Something I also found on a parts fisch was a pressure sensor (its not addressed in the manual nor is the part DISPLAYED on that parts fisch): Part #6, http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/2004/FZ6+-+FZ600SSC/INTAKE+2/parts.html


Idle RPM's should be set at approx 1300 per the manual.

I also just sent you a PM