2004 FZ6 fuel pump failure

[Nelly]

This has been one of the most interesting threads that I read in a while. One thing that strikes me is this. If you took the bike into a shop and had to pay for the same labour that you have invested in trying to fix this, the mechanic would be laughing all the way to the bank.
What would a shop do that you haven't to fault find the problem?
I'm sorry I haven't got the answer to your question but there has to be a simpler diagnostic solution. It still sounds like a fuel delivery issue.
I look forward to the next installment,

Neil

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[Nelly]

Re: Re: 2004 FZ6 fuel pump failure

Since it runs briefly, kill switch works

Last month when my switch went bad it would die suddenly and the fault was intermittent. Does the engine run for the same length of time prior to dying? like its getting x amount of fuel each time or are there different running times?

Neil

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[Hayabusafiend]

Last month when my switch went bad it would die suddenly and the fault was intermittent. Does the engine run for the same length of time prior to dying? like its getting x amount of fuel each time or are there different running times?

Neil

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

The engine runs for a few seconds on its own fuel every time I cycle the ignition key. It runs great with starter fuel sprayed into the throttle bodies. Once I stop spraying, the engine quits. The kill switch is okay.

Looking at buying a fuel pressure gauge kit and put that question to rest.

 

[Hayabusafiend]

On page 7-29 of the 04-06 Yamaha (US version) it shows testing the fuel pressure on the left side of the bike/fuel rail: "(Connect the pressure gauge 1 and adapter 2 onto the fuel injection pipe)"

It further states if it fails, "replace the fuel pump" which leads me to believe the regulator is part of the fuel pump.

I also found in the shop manual, the California version FZ has a "roll over valve" that goes into the bottom of the fuel tank(right side as you sit on the bike). You may try disconnecting that, (if its clogged, it'd cause issues-I don't think this is the issue, it'd likely run longer before having a vapor lock.

A bad TPS will generally not act as your bike is. There was a re-call on the bike, you can call your dealer and check the VIN# and see if it was replaced (or was even in the recall).

It may be posted somewhere, but did your dash throw any fault codes? Can you check the history (any codes are supposed to be stored until deleted) for any remaining codes?.

Something I also found on a parts fisch was a pressure sensor (its not addressed in the manual nor is the part DISPLAYED on that parts fisch): Part #6, Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2004 FZ6 - FZ600SSC INTAKE 2 Diagram


Idle RPM's should be set at approx 1300 per the manual.

I also just sent you a PM

The auto parts store fuel pressure gauge kit is $60. The local Yamaha dealer is 0.5 mile away and wants $95 to diagnose the issue. I have a wife ans=d 8mo son. This is taking too much time.

The CA rollover valve is on the return line which connects to a hard pipe to the TOP of the tank just under the filler cap. I haven't run the bike with the filler cap open to see if I get returning fuel. Shouldn't affect supply though.

 

[Cali rider]

Where are you in California?

 

[Gelvatron]

Where are you in California?

I'd have to ask the same question and maybe one of your local part stores rest the pressure kits you
May he e to buy the adapter from Yama though

 

[Nelly]

Dumb thought, are you running the bike with the airbox off? Or fully reassembled?
You have ruled out filter, air and spark.

Neil

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Its apparently NOT getting fuel for some reason after start up.

Wether the TPS isn't communicating (or failed) with the ECU(or there's an issue there (corroded connecter, just a bad ECU, ?), or another sensor is giving false signals seems to be where this is headed...

 

[FinalImpact]

Recap - pump (as you know it) came from a running bike or was it spare that was never tested by PO? With a test lamp you could confirm fuel pump has power while it stalls. Also connect across an injector to confirm it is getting a DC pulse from the ECM. If no signal than we look elsewhere.
One member had a crushed high pressure line but that only showed itself above idle as fuel delivery issues at speed.
Fwiw: a thimble of fuel spread among all four venturies would be better than starting fluid on.
That's what comes to mind for now.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Recap - pump (as you know it) came from a running bike or was it spare that was never tested by PO? With a test lamp you could confirm fuel pump has power while it stalls. Also connect across an injector to confirm it is getting a DC pulse from the ECM. If no signal than we look elsewhere.
One member had a crushed high pressure line but that only showed itself above idle as fuel delivery issues at speed.
Fwiw: a thimble of fuel spread among all four venturies would be better than starting fluid on.
That's what comes to mind for now.

Great idea's above.

Something I thought about later, the bike cranks up initially, in THE COLD, RICH mode. is it possible the ECU is shutting down or not recognizing as the bike warms and shuts off the signals to the injectors? Of course your procedure above should indicate if power is getting to the pump (after start up) and/or the injectors.

 

[FinalImpact]

Just out of curiosity have you pulled large connector from the ECM to look for corrosion or growth? It might not hurt to take a look.

I would not advise this for everyone but small syringe three tees and some hose would make a poor mans primer as a means of adding fuel for testing. The rubber in the syringe will promptly swell from the fuel but it would help keep it running for diagnostic purposes.

PS actual fuel pressure gauges typically have a diaphragm such that if the gauge unit developed a leak, high pressure fuel doesn't poor out into the cabin. Its why they cost more than a mechanical oil pressure gauge. Again for testing only, you could use a mechanical op gauge. It only needs to run 5 min to gather the info you need. Lastly have you inspect the outbound fuel line for obstruction or kinks?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Just out of curiosity have you pulled large connector from the ECM to look for corrosion or growth? It might not hurt to take a look.

I would not advise this for everyone but small syringe three tees and some hose would make a poor mans primer as a means of adding fuel for testing. The rubber in the syringe will promptly swell from the fuel but it would help keep it running for diagnostic purposes.

PS actual fuel pressure gauges typically have a diaphragm such that if the gauge unit developed a leak, high pressure fuel doesn't poor out into the cabin. Its why they cost more than a mechanical oil pressure gauge. Again for testing only, you could use a mechanical op gauge. It only needs to run 5 min to gather the info you need. Lastly have you inspect the outbound fuel line for obstruction or kinks?

+1 on most of this.

Using a syringe and tee's likely won't work. If it was a carbed engine, sure, but the injectors want approx 35 PSI of fuel pressure to operate.

Checking voltage at the pump (after start up) and the injectors should tell the story...

 

[FinalImpact]

+1 on most of this.

Using a syringe and tee's likely won't work. If it was a carbed engine, sure, but the injectors want approx 35 PSI of fuel pressure to operate.

Checking voltage at the pump (after start up) and the injectors should tell the story...

These four big holes will accept a few dribbles of gas willingly.. .. .. I WAS NOT implying connect the syringe to the fuel line. Did I say FUEL LINE?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

My mistake, thought you meant to hook it up for fuel delivery. As you stated, that would work better and more evenly than starter fluid..

 

[Hayabusafiend]

Where are you in California?

San Jose.

Dumb thought, are you running the bike with the airbox off? Or fully reassembled?
You have ruled out filter, air and spark.

Neil

Fully reassembled.

Recap - pump (as you know it) came from a running bike or was it spare that was never tested by PO? With a test lamp you could confirm fuel pump has power while it stalls. Also connect across an injector to confirm it is getting a DC pulse from the ECM. If no signal than we look elsewhere.
One member had a crushed high pressure line but that only showed itself above idle as fuel delivery issues at speed.
Fwiw: a thimble of fuel spread among all four venturies would be better than starting fluid on.
That's what comes to mind for now.

Purchased pump from Fazil, a member of this forum. Supposedly a known-good pump. The injector harness is fine. All 4 exhaust headers get hot when I spray starter fluid into the airbox. This bike has been garage stored its' entire life. All fuses and fuse connectors are clean. No rust or corrosion anywhere.

Great idea's above.

Something I thought about later, the bike cranks up initially, in THE COLD, RICH mode. is it possible the ECU is shutting down or not recognizing as the bike warms and shuts off the signals to the injectors? Of course your procedure above should indicate if power is getting to the pump (after start up) and/or the injectors.

Pump primes, bike starts, pump starts, engine runs for 1 second at ~1K rpm, another second engine misfires, 3rd second engine runs with a few cylinders lean firing, stalls on the 4th second, pump stops.

Just out of curiosity have you pulled large connector from the ECM to look for corrosion or growth? It might not hurt to take a look.

I would not advise this for everyone but small syringe three tees and some hose would make a poor mans primer as a means of adding fuel for testing. The rubber in the syringe will promptly swell from the fuel but it would help keep it running for diagnostic purposes.

PS actual fuel pressure gauges typically have a diaphragm such that if the gauge unit developed a leak, high pressure fuel doesn't poor out into the cabin. Its why they cost more than a mechanical oil pressure gauge. Again for testing only, you could use a mechanical op gauge. It only needs to run 5 min to gather the info you need. Lastly have you inspect the outbound fuel line for obstruction or kinks?

All fuses and connectors look clean. I'd be surprised the ECU connectors are dirty, but I'll look. Good idea to use a mechanical oil pressure gauge.

The outbound fuel line has some soft of (check?) valve that connects to the tank. It looks like a black fuel filter but isn't a filter. It test flowed in 1 direction (don't remember FROM or TO fuel rail). Thinking. The outbound line shouldn't free flow. If it free flowed, the fuel line wouldn't develop pressure. I wonder if that is the pressure regulator.

Checking voltage at the pump (after start up) and the injectors should tell the story...

Ah. Feed the throttle bodies fuel with the pump harness on a voltmeter. Clever. Really need to pressure test the pump.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

It sounds as if the pump or injectors are NOT getting electrical power after the initial start up.

If you could hook up a 12 volt test light to the pump (and to ground-with the pump STILL plugged in) and also an injector signal wire(and to ground), crank it up and see which loses power first and go from there..

One of those wires is losing voltage or the pump is stopping for some reason (I don't believe that's the case as it does prime ((unless there is an internal regulator thats stuck))

 

[Hayabusafiend]

What's more likely: all 4 injectors simultaneously losing power after start-up or the used fuel pump not maintaining 35 PSI?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

The ECU is "talking" with different sensor's, etc.

The ECU could be bad, the pump bad, a sensor telling the ECU the engine is NOT running and then turning OFF the fuel pump or not sending signals to the injectors to open. I'm leaning towards the pump.

Putting a test light to the pump while the engine initally cranks up and runs should tell alot if the pumps even getting electric when it begins to sputter/die.

It worked fine bench testing it, ??

Cliff, any idea's as its likely electrical?

 

[FinalImpact]

OK - as soon as it dies, open the port to the "FUEL PRESSURE CHECK POINT". If gas flies out under pressure, the injectors are losing signal and NOT consuming the fuel (possible indication the pump is working).

IF the check point is DRY (aka dribbles but no pressure), the pump is either DOA or NOT getting power. This would tell us a good deal!! <where to point fingers> Most fuel injection systems hold pressure in the rail for hours.

Whether you check the pumps voltage or power it directly omitting the bike as the source that would be my 2nd check after doing the above.

 

[Hayabusafiend]

The fuel rail is solid except for the pop-off valve, and 4 injector holes. There is no Schrader valve or nipple on the fuel rail. I'd have to put one inline with the fuel line. Not thrilled with that idea.

The pump bench tested with 12VDC and it buzzed. I didn't bench pressure test the pump.

Plan B: Buy an oil or fuel pressure gauge and isolate the fuel pump output line directly to the gauge. Key ON pressure. Start pressure. Stall pressure.

Plan C: Walk the bike to the Yamaha dealer and pay them $100 to troubleshoot.