Clutch Fluid Don't Look Right

[VEGASRIDER]

On my Ducati. Took me a year after purchasing the bike brand new, that this bike didn't have a clutch cable. Or at least, it takes some sort of fluid, some say it's the same as brake fluid. Pictured below is my clutch reservoir, which appears dark, and a noticeable amount of clear fluid on the bottom. So am I out of fluid or is it just dirty? The 2nd picture is my brake reservoir which looks fine. So is it just a matter of replacing the clutch fluid and bleeding them?

That being, my clutch engagement zone is now immediate, right at the grips. Zero free play. It's to a point where I stall the bike if I'm not paying attention. Stalled it the other night leaving work when my handle bars were at a full lock position with no forward momentum almost turned into a Hall of Shame moment. I save the bike, but barely.
Okay Randy and Scott, I posted to see if I get the same answers from the Ducati forum. Not that I don't trust them, but you two have far more credibility, even if you don't own a Ducati.

Anyone is welcome to chime in besides our two forum Maintenance Gods.

 

[FinalImpact]

Looks spoiled to me. Thats pretty odd given the timeline, like something else got in there to make it go bad.

Usually bikes ship bars not attached and fluids are nil. How that would get mixed (if thats what happened) is up in the air.

My experince is this; the dark black can be the pistons (rubber) from either or (or both) the master and slave deteriorating making the fluid black... if this is the case, you could have a failure over time. Think wheelie at the wrong time if the clutch suddenly releases.

Find out what goes in there (dot 3/dot 4, if its synthetic or not) and suck it out. Fill it and pump it through.

Mind you a clutch bleed takes a bit more finesse compared to brakes as the clutch easily operates (compresses springs) while calipers come up hard when pressure builds. That said when building pressure, try not to pull hard enough to disengage the clutch as the springs of the clutch engauging, forces fluid back up the line and this can make a 5min job go long and never get the air out. Make sense?

If you have trouble sometimes gravity can be your friend. Leave the lid off the MC, fill with fresh fluid, crack bleeder a 1/2 turn and see if it will trickle out. Might take 30" or 3x that.
You know the drill for pressure bleeding. This time use a gentle touch pressure wise.

Last bit shoot for the lowest humidity day possible as humidity in the air will be trapped in there. And ya, your brake fluid isn't looking so great for a year old either....

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

The second picture, the fluid is clearer. We're the pic's taken at the same time???

And agreed, if the fluid is indeed that dark(if it's brake fluid), not good...

Now as the brake pads wear and more fluid is pulled down into the lines, there's a rubber "cap" (not the right word) that extends outward to take up the now open area. Kind of opens up (and closes back) like an accordion. When the fluid is topped off, that "accordion" does NOT stick out at all.

The FZ has the exact same set up but for the brakes (same idea). .

*First thing I would do is wrap clean rags around the reseviour, then remove the cap and check the actual level. You'll see if the fluid is low (and the actual color) and that rubber extended out (causing the darkness as you look at it). If the fluid is low, the owners manual should say (or actually atop the cap should say what type fluid to use).

Something, depending on what you find, is to contact your dealer and see if there's any re-calls on that. It should NOT get that dirty, that quick. There may be an updated "accordion seal" should there be an issue with the original


Lastly, has the clutch engagement zone changed at all since you got the bike?

(With the hydraulic clutches I've encountered, the zone doesn't change. BUT there is an adjuster on the lever (like the FZ's front brake lever))


BTW, The FJR has used a hydraulic clutch as did my1985 and 1986 Honda VT 1100 Shadow's.
I think I changed the fluid ONCE in the FJR in 5 years, never in the Honda (but I didn't have them long).

 

[Red Wazp]

I usually change the brake fluid once a year or never more than 2 years. That's an ugly color, I 'd flush it out and if it turns that color again soon something isn't right. My KTM uses mineral oil in the hyd. clutch but I can read the top of yours and it looks like a dot 4?

 

[Motogiro]

I have had the same experience with the hydraulic clutch fluid darkening on my SV10000s. I read quite a few different theories on why this seems to be a common theme. I've changed my clutch fluid pretty often. Theories include hose material and aluminum interaction and wear. I read somewhere where a type of fish oil is used. Hydraulic clutch requirements may not need anywhere near what brakes require but there is no reason not the keep it clean and change it once a year.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

For those who are interested, here's the link for the same thread that I posted on the Ducati forum. Lots of advice and theories on why it turns black. Definitely Dot 4, but others have said silicone based or even mineral oil is better.

Clutch Fluid, doesn't look right - Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum

 

[Ben sIII]

don't mean to insult your intelligence by this, but have you checked your fluid levels? inside those caps you have the rubber diaphragm (in ducatis case it is black) that comes down to fill in the void if fluid is loss, the general principle is to limit air transfer into the MC. the diaphragm sucked all the way down may be what is making it look like dirty fluid, where it is just fluid hiding the diaphragm.

 

[zixaq]

You can actually see in your picture that the reservoir lid says DOT 4, so probably stick with that.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

don't mean to insult your intelligence by this, but have you checked your fluid levels? inside those caps you have the rubber diaphragm (in ducatis case it is black) that comes down to fill in the void if fluid is loss, the general principle is to limit air transfer into the MC. the diaphragm sucked all the way down may be what is making it look like dirty fluid, where it is just fluid hiding the diaphragm.

Very possible, but the consensus on the Ducati forum is that the dirty fluid has been a known issue. I will have to see if your theory is correct. I don't think there has been one person on the Ducati forum that has mentioned the possibility of the diaphragm getting misplaced. Makes sense though.

 

[Ben sIII]

Could also explains the loss of pressure.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

"inside those caps you have the rubber diaphragm (in ducatis case it is black) that comes down to fill in the void if fluid is loss, the general principle is to limit air transfer into the MC. the diaphragm sucked all the way down may be what is making it look like dirty fluid, where it is just fluid hiding the diaphragm.

Very possible, but the consensus on the Ducati forum is that the dirty fluid has been a known issue. I will have to see if your theory is correct. I don't think there has been one person on the Ducati forum that has mentioned the possibility of the diaphragm getting misplaced. Makes sense though.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

I wrote THIS in post #3 earlier(same thing):

*First thing I would do is wrap clean rags around the reseviour, then remove the cap and check the actual level. You'll see if the fluid is low (and the actual color) and that rubber extended out (causing the darkness as you look at it). If the fluid is low, the owners manual should say (or actually atop the cap should say what type fluid to use).


Did you simply spin the cover off and look yet?


Reading the Duc link, seems like the rubber diaphragm inside likes "bleed off it's color" into the brake fluid..

Why it needs re-bleeding within a year is very odd UNLESS the fluid is very low and it's now sucked air into the master
cylinder IE-The diaphragm is extended fully with the empty MC (looks dark) and now there's air in the system.

With that thought in mind, is there any leakage down by the plunger (working end for the clutch).

Does the dealer have any reason for the discoloration (IF it is indeed dis-colored)?

Lastly, I believe you have two issues: :
(1) How did air get in the system? We also need confirmation with[/B] what's going on at the handler bar reservoir? (IS the fluid LOW??)
(2) the discoloration of fluid





.

 

[Motogiro]

I agree with Scott that unless there is a leak there should be no reason to bleed the system or have any loss of fluid. The word, "bleeding" may have been used used in place of, "flushing" and usually refers to air in a hydraulic line. That would give the idea of a leaking system.

Thinking about the hydraulic clutch operation and since I have not read any thought on this yet. The clutch master cylinder, although a similar hydraulic function as a brake master cylinder, has a much greater stroke distance than the brake master cylinder. This probably equates to more polishing of the master bore and any "O" ring seals.

The brake master cylinder and calipers have very little stroke needed to apply the brakes where as the clutch master cylinder and slave have a greater stroke. This could equate to the clutch fluid becoming discolored quickly in comparison to brake fluid.

In my personal experience with the hydraulic clutch, although the fluid gets dark pretty quickly it has worked great for 7 years and it is the original hydraulic clutch master and slave on a 2007 SV1000s

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Well, I've had had two Honda VT1100's, one FJR, one Kawasaki ZRX1100, one Honda Goldwing all with hydraulic clutches since 1985.

As noted, at least with these Jap bikes, I changed the fluid ONCE in the FJR, and never in the others. Granted I didn't have them for approx 3-8 years each, I never had one leak out or turn the fluid or need bleeding at all. My FJR's clutch fluid was cleaner than the Duc after 5 years of use.

Remember too, the clutch fluid isn't getting ANY HEAT like a brake caliper would....

Seems, so far from reading here, the Duc post/thread, it's a common problem that shouldn't be...


Now, if there's no visible leaks, I'd be removing the slave cylinder looking for leakage there..

 

[FinalImpact]

Unlike brake pads that wear away, your clutch should retain the same fluid levels for years unless there is a leak.
Granted it's only a picture but it does not appear to be the lids diaphragm making it look black. Its just black.

You still need to know if its glycol based or synthetic. If uncertain, replace with Dot 4 Synthetic.

Again, do so on low humidity day as a humid day you trap that moisture in there. That said it is so nasty just do it, and plan to repeat on a dry day even if cold.

In the old days of cast steel brake master and slave cylinders the rust would build from moisture and sitting and basically act like sand paper on the rubber cups shaving off bits making the fluid black.

It **appears** the cups are being ground up so to speak. Mind you a slave cylinder can leak and keep working. If the MC fails, you're going clutchless. You might check availability of a new MC or bare minimum an MC kit if they make it. But of the bore is torn up, you'll need a new MC.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

She is bone dry! That takes of the diaphragm theory. I still have some DOT 4 brake fluid, but it's about 6 years old. Should I put some in the reservoir? I'm planning to take it to the local independent shop near where I work and have them bleed and replace the fluids while I'm at work. So I still have to ride it, at least to the shop. I've been commuting on my FZ, so I'm not riding my Duc.

Can't explain why it's dry. 9500 miles and just one year from purchasing new, where did all that fluid go? No signs of any leaks, I keep the bike very clean, I would have noticed if there is a leak.

I have to admit, a lot of Motogymkhana, dozen slow bike race events and my daily commutes in stop n go traffic probably took it's toll.

 

[FinalImpact]

Not on a hydraulic clutch. Where did it go?

Its against all rules to dump 6 year old contaminated fluid in there but clearly your system has issues if it's out of fluid in a year.

 

[Ben sIII]

agree with ^^ do not use 6 year old fluid.

Usage shouldn't make the fluid disappear so i would say you have a leak. In my experience of cars and bikes its often the slave cylinder that goes, though at this stage this doesn't really help you.

At least you know you have a good air seal at the reservoir.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

She is bone dry! That takes of the diaphragm theory.
Can't explain why it's dry. 9500 miles and just one year from purchasing new, where did all that fluid go? No signs of any leaks, I keep the bike very clean, I would have noticed if there is a leak.

That's exactly what I said in post #3. Especially about the two different colored pictures-diaphragm extended when low.....

Brake fluid doesn't evaporate. You have a leak somewhere...

As noted earlier, there's seals inside the engine slave cylinder (you can't see W/O removal).
Something moves in and out to disengage the clutch.

My $'s on that seal leaking. Perhaps when doing all the slow speed maneuvers. The engine's very hot, the seal
may be leaking then.

Page 95 is the entire assembly: https://issuu.com/ducatiomaha/docs/2014_multistradast_ducatiomaha?e=1222863/10755833

Is it still under warranty?

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Is it still under warranty?

Funny you asked that question, being that the manufacturer offers a two year warranty, and my bike was purchased brand new and it's only a year old, it should. To much of my surprise last month, I was going to get a faulty fuel sensor replaced under warranty here at the local Ducati dealership and found out that it expired last August. Turns out, for some odd reason, this bike had the warranty activated back in August of 2014. The VIN document that was produced indicates it was activated to replace mismatched panniers. Odd, you would assume that if the manufacturer sent the wrong panniers, you would just simply exchange them. This was never disclosed when I bought the bike. I asked if there was anything wrong with the bike, and they said no, it's brand new. My bill of sale states new, with 3 miles on the bike. I'm the first registered owner. Unfortunately, I don't have anything in writing, it's currently down to we disclosed vs no you didn't You would think that the dealership would have this in writing at the time of sale, stating that I'm purchasing a bike with only 10 months left on the warranty.

Being that my motorcycle is my only ride, I would never purchase a new bike without a full warranty. That alone, no matter how cheap the bike was would have been a deal breaker. I bought the bike over the phone, using email and the us postal service to close the deal from a dealership that's 800 miles away.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

You have receipt, bill of sale with the sale date, etc, proving the bikes ONLY a year old.

You bought a bike with a two year warranty, NOT ONE YEAR...

That dealer needs to get off his a$$ and get a hold of headquarters.

If they don't, you need to. If they still jerk you around, get a lawyer. That entire attitude, "sorry" if flat out BS..


Worse yet, for them to say there's nothing wrong with the bike, ask them if it's standard for the clutch fluid to "go away".
That ALONE, is a MAJOR SAFETY ISSUE, IE potential wrongful death lawsuit.


You don't still have the FZ as a back up I gather?