Did I screw up my engine?

[tom_nuke]

Did I screw up my engine? (Yet another vibration post)

Sorry for the wall of text... I'm nervous that I broke my baby!

Firstly, I've done a bit of searching and reading, and feel that this is a unique problem (maybe).. so here goes:

This is my first bike that I've owned. Learned to ride on my buddies Shadow. Been riding for about 2 years. Back in March, picked up a real nice 2009 FZ6 with ~9300 miles on the clock. Got it home, did an oil change almost immediately, since the bike had pretty much sat all winter (PO used Amsoil I believe). Did my own work, no shops are involved.

After A LOT of reading, I decided to try the Rotella T6 5w40 with the PureOne 14610 filter (changed at ~9700 miles). The oil ran fine, got a little more valve tick than when the previous oil was in. At ~2500 miles, shifting was starting to get notchy. Did much more reading on oils.

After ~2500 miles, changed oil and this time used Rotella T 15w40 (changed at 12188 miles). I DID NOT CHANGE MY OIL FILTER. Noticed a bit more vibes when running this oil, decide I don't really like it all that much. At about 1000 miles into this oil, I decide it's time to change. Figured I had at least another 500 miles on the oil.

Get to about 1200 miles in this oil and a vibration like nothing like I've felt starts up. This isn't like a normal slight vibe in a certain RPM range that can be cure with a TB sync. This vibe is pretty consistent throughout the RPM range. It's definitely in the engine, can feel it just revving in Neutral, or coasting and pulling the clutch. It definitely follows engine RPM.

Changed the oil out, right at 1500 miles into the oil, with some Castrol Actevo 10w40 4T oil (Plus new Oil Filter, PL14610). Trans loves this oil, shifts much smoother, but the vibration still persists, even after about 100 miles on the new oil.

I mostly use the bike to commute to work (25 miles one way, lots of sitting in traffic, idling or clutching) and some 2 up weekend riding. Wife and I combined are under 300lbs. I don't abuse the bike, make a few runs out to redline, but mostly I'm just putting along at 50mph in traffic. No wheelies or high RPM clutch drops. No wrecks, but I did drop it in the driveway one time.

Things I've done to try and fix this:

-Change back to motorcycle specific oil
-TB Sync (before last oil change, plan to do another this weekend)
-Spark Plug Cap (recut all 4)
-Cleaned and Lubed chain at normal intervals.

Have I totally screwed my engine? I suspect the oil broke down too much and caused some damage, but I'm not 100% sure. It seems to perform the same, no bogging or stuttering, just has this constant vibration. It's bad enough to make my feet tingle after about 30 min of riding. Can also feel it in the tank around my legs, and in the seat.

Is there anything else I can check? Is it worth picking up a torque wrench and check all the engine to frame mount bolts?

I DO Engine break from time to time. I've read that can cause extra wear on the CCT, which I think I can also hear in certain situations. Can a worn CCT cause extreme vibration?

I fear I've totally borked my engine...

Appreciate any help.

-Tom

 

[FIZZER6]

I highly doubt it has anything at all to do with your oil used. I've used Rotella T6 5W40 since 3,000 miles and I'm at 20,000 miles and the bike runs as good as it did on day 1. I change my oil every 4,000 miles and I use the same PL14610 Pure One filter. I'm not that familiar with all the internal workings of this engine but this doesn't sound good. Does the bike feel like it has a lot less power? This is what a 4 cylinder car would do if it were misfiring on one cylinder. Still run just really low on power and vibrate like heck.

 

[Motogiro]

I don't think you did anything to hurt your motor and I would start trying to figure out where the vibration is coming from. There are plenty of great mech warriors on the forum. [MENTION=15974]FinalImpact[/MENTION] [MENTION=6338]TownsendsFJR1300[/MENTION]

If you've confirmed that each plug wire in fact is pushing out a high V spark I would then do a compression check. I'll have to assume you have no error codes thrown.

Let's see what our great team has to say!

 

[tom_nuke]

I highly doubt it has anything at all to do with your oil used. I've used Rotella T6 5W40 since 3,000 miles and I'm at 20,000 miles and the bike runs as good as it did on day 1. I change my oil every 4,000 miles and I use the same PL14610 Pure One filter. I'm not that familiar with all the internal workings of this engine but this doesn't sound good. Does the bike feel like it has a lot less power? This is what a 4 cylinder car would do if it were misfiring on one cylinder. Still run just really low on power and vibrate like heck.

The oil is really the only thing that has changed, bike is stock except for a few farkles here and there.

At first I suspected spark plugs, but the bike is running fine other than the vibrations. No sputtering, hesitating, bogging down, pinging...

I've got new plugs scheduled for the 15K mark, but may push that ahead to rule them out.

Something I haven't checked is to check resistance on the plug wire / boot / spring cap thingy.. will check that as well.

No Error codes, no strange behavior. I do have the dual headlight mod, maybe the battery needs a good charge. I'll throw it on the tender over the weekend.

Thanks!

Tom

 

[FIZZER6]

What about the engine mount bolts that hold the block to the frame? If one were to become loose it could cause vibration to increase.

 

[tom_nuke]

What about the engine mount bolts that hold the block to the frame? If one were to become loose it could cause vibration to increase.

If I'm reading the service manual correctly, these should be at 40 lb-ft? I'll try checking these over the weekend and report back.

Tom

 

[FinalImpact]

I think I'd start with plugs and maybe rethink what fuel you use. Some gas burns better than others.

So, if you trimmed the coil wires I encourage you to double check them all. They can loosen again. Also make certain the plugs gap is less than 0.028". Anything wider may strain the ignition system and cause the vibes you feel.

To your OP - yes, some oils behave better than others and I've found the bike is very content on Amsoil. Never believed in it, but it cut out a layer of vibes that made me use it again.

Although the stock plug works, I personally would not opt for double ground strap OEM plug. I'm running the CR9E (no K) which is single ground strap.

Recap:

• Fuel, different brand, maybe add some Techron fuel treatment
• Check plug gap less than 0.028"
• Confirm caps are still tight on the wires (it can repeat)
• If the vibes occur beyond 5K, not TB sync related.
• Confirm valve lash, although a vacuum gauge to each sync port and watch the pulse. If one cylinder swings wildly it likely needs a valve adjustment.

Start there and see where you land. Assuming vibes can be felt at a standstill that is. Otherwise chain alignment and good lube will help drivetrain issues.

 

[FinalImpact]

Also - the stock exhaust can get bound and cause issues. Loosen the top mounting bolts on the muffler area and let it align itself. If its bound it will induce more vibes.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I doubt you did any damage as noted above with the oil. Myself, I prefer MC specific oil, (Motul 7100 so there's no guessing there).

Already mentioned is the engine mounting bolts. I have personally had two loosen up slightly on mine, (maybe 3 lbs low and felt it thru the bars). There's 5 total (two long steel bolts at the rear too) and all are 40 ft lbs.

Get an accurate torque wrench and go over them..

If you have access to a lazer temp gun, (their fairly cheap new too), shooting closely at each header pipe (close to the head) when the bike is at temp will give you a good idea if ALL the cylinders are operating about the same. If one header pipe is much cooler/different than the others, you need to start digging there..

Spark plug tip color (especially while your pulling them anyway), can tell you alot about the engine and a specific cylinder if one is very different colored from the others...

I replaced my spark plugs with Iridiums (just a tad more $) however they should last many more times than a standard plug. They should be checked and can be adjusted; NGK Spark Plugs USA


Also, I know it started with the oil change (maybe coincidence), however I would strongly recommend putting a very light coating of di-lectric grease on the spark plug boots, were they actually touch the valve cover. It makes installing and un-installing much easier. If one of your wires did NOT fully seat, you WILL HAVE ISSUES.. Much worse than the arcing of a bad wire end, etc. You should be able to feel and HEAR the cap snap onto the spark plug-VERY IMPORTANT.

Lastly, while doing your sync, besides doing it idle, re-check and re-adjust at about 4,000 RPM's. You should be able to get them all well within the 10mm allowance. Again, if once cylinder is acting up in particular, time to start looking deeper, perhaps a vacuum leak, something loose, etc... You don't know what the previous owner has done to the bike/engine. I've had the YAMAHA shop screw up a throttle sync (that I paid for) and I had to re tune.
Hopefully you haven't touched the center screw (it has a spring and simply sync's the throttle butterflys to each other) betwen the two throttle bodies (and no one else either). Just the air screws if all is correct.

BTW, what is your normal operating idle speed (RPM's) set at? Any Power Commanders, added on accessories, etc, anything possibly pertinent? Has, to your knowledge, anyone messed with hecking valves, messing with the cam chain tensioner, etc??

Please post what you come up with, we'll get it figured out..


And, should you not find anything, please record a good digital audio / video of the bike running, etc. You can upload to Photobucket if need be (some other sites too)

 

[Hellgate]

Tom, you're fine, mellow, chill.

Has your oil been changed recently? Check.

Are your tires in good shape? Check em. If they're cupped, replace 'em. If they are squared, replace 'em

Have you changed anything else? Nope.

Air tires, fuel tank, lube chain, for for a ride.

 

[SandyN]

Hey Tom, I am experiencing the same problem where the vibe levels have increased, so I'll be watching this thread closely and posting results to things I check.
I am running Castrol Activeo and have done all the spark plug, spark cap, throttle body things. My engine mounting bolts are all tight but will loosen/tighten them once I get the correct socket.
My plan for today is to check the coil resistances and, as mentioned by the others in this thread, the muffler mountings as the buzz in the seat got worse too.
Here's wishing us luck!!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re-reading your post, just a couple of questions;

When the bike sat over the winter, do you know if the fuel was treated with a fuel stabiliizer?

With the "all the time vibration", (I'm assuming the engine is fully torqued down at this pont), I'm leaning towards a fuel injector clogged up with varnish or crap. (the oil change is just coincidence, at least with the BAD vib's).

** I'm also assuming the spark plug caps are on fully and the ignition system is operating properly, but it seems you've addressed most of that- as long as you've heard/felt the spark plug caps, SNAP ONTO EACH SPARK PLUG.**

That alone would account for the constant vibration over the entire rev range.

I agree, its in the engine, not any running gear (from your description).

Randy, has a post (Randy, if you could please re-post, the procedure for cleaning the injectors and flushing the fuel rail?)


If your hesitant on pulling injectors, etc, depending on how bad (if they are clogged) they are, Yamaha makes a product called "RingFree" which works excellent cleaning the fuel injection system and top end of the engine. 1 oz per 10 gallons however when I come across an engine that'll barely run, I'll run a very heavy dose of it and a good part of the time, it'll clear out the crap (depending on what it is). Sitting over night and more running with the product will help it work better over time... I run it in every gas engine I own. A good, preventive maintainance product to use, IME...

 

[SandyN]

So on Saturday I loosened all the exhaust mounting points (after also removing the grabrails to get to the 2 cap screws under the tail unit), including the joint behind the coolant expansion tank, and tightened everything up again starting from the back and tightening the joint last.

Only took the bike out this morning on my normal commute and waited for the 5200 rpm vibe; it didn't happen! Actually I looked down at the speedo to see what speed I was doing and was surprised to see I was over the speed where the vibe occurred. I confirmed this on the way back home. Yes, if you really look for it, it is still there, more so running against compression, but what a difference.

The rumble vibe at 6400 rpm is still there and needs to be tracked down. I did not do the coils as planned but will do that this coming weekend. (maybe) Also will try relaxing the engine mounts and re-tightening.

 

[FinalImpact]

So on Saturday I loosened all the exhaust mounting points (after also removing the grabrails to get to the 2 cap screws under the tail unit), including the joint behind the coolant expansion tank, and tightened everything up again starting from the back and tightening the joint last.

Only took the bike out this morning on my normal commute and waited for the 5200 rpm vibe; it didn't happen! Actually I looked down at the speedo to see what speed I was doing and was surprised to see I was over the speed where the vibe occurred. I confirmed this on the way back home. Yes, if you really look for it, it is still there, more so running against compression, but what a difference.

The rumble vibe at 6400 rpm is still there and needs to be tracked down. I did not do the coils as planned but will do that this coming weekend. (maybe) Also will try relaxing the engine mounts and re-tightening.

That was done solely to the stock exhaust??

I would be very careful as to "HOW" you do the engine bolts. The reason being the engine is a stressed part of the frame and the process used needs to allow all of the bolts to center on their own.
MEANING: Do not ALLOW the ENGINES WEIGHT to hang on the loose bolts. Support it taking some load but not enough to lift the frame and then tighten all of the bolts.

You won't find this detail in the manual, but every bolt should freely float through its mating points w/out being forced (confirm by turning by hand) and then take up the tension on them.

Once done, you should redo the exhaust.

 

[SandyN]

Thanks for the advice FI, it makes sense to centralize the motor on the mounting bolts and loosen all the exhaust mountings before re-tightening.

The reason I need to look at the coils is that I notice they can get water on them. I've had small problems with the headlight and hooter malfunctioning where all it took was to pull the connectors off and put them back again to get things working. I suspect the PO used a cleaner to clean the bike before selling it which oxidised the surfaces of the connectors. This may be a problem with the coil connectors although the bike runs well otherwise.

edit: yes, it is a stock muffler.

 

[FinalImpact]

Thanks for the advice FI, it makes sense to centralize the motor on the mounting bolts and loosen all the exhaust mountings before re-tightening.

The reason I need to look at the coils is that I notice they can get water on them. I've had small problems with the headlight and hooter malfunctioning where all it took was to pull the connectors off and put them back again to get things working. I suspect the PO used a cleaner to clean the bike before selling it which oxidised the surfaces of the connectors. This may be a problem with the coil connectors although the bike runs well otherwise.

edit: yes, it is a stock muffler.

Those are great points as cleaners often continue to clean and oxidize long after the fact! Grab some MAF cleaner if contact cleaner is not available.

Although I can't relate as to how bad your vibration is; what do you have in those parts fuel quality wise? As stated, some fuel simply lights and burns better than others. Can you try a different brand or add some octane boost to it and report back?

Also - are you sure this vibe is not drivetrain related. I'm getting the idea that your in the same gear at 6500. Will it happen in all gears at 6500??

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Thanks for the advice FI, it makes sense to centralize the motor on the mounting bolts and loosen all the exhaust mountings before re-tightening.

The reason I need to look at the coils is that I notice they can get water on them. I've had small problems with the headlight and hooter malfunctioning where all it took was to pull the connectors off and put them back again to get things working. I suspect the PO used a cleaner to clean the bike before selling it which oxidised the surfaces of the connectors. This may be a problem with the coil connectors although the bike runs well otherwise.

edit: yes, it is a stock muffler.

You may want to consider putting di-lectric grease on all those electrical connectors. It'll keep moisture from corroding the connectors and causing issues down the road. Every plug in connector, battery terminal, bulb, etc, gets a light coating of it...(Do NOT get it on the headlight bulbs, but the 2 or 3 electrical prongs are fine).

Just a little bit of that grease on the spark plug boots, where it meets the valve cove, helps a bunch installing and removing the spark plug caps. You should be able to hear and feel them snap on.. If not, their NOT on fully.

 

[yamihoe]

+1 the oil didnt mess with the motor.
I found mine likes a bit over 3qts of the T6 (5w-40) and the rest the Rotella 15w-40. 5w40 seems a tad thin to begin with and the tranny feels iffy but the 15w40 is just too thick. my "special" mix works well in my specific case, I have used it for the last 30k miles with no ill effect, including several trips to the drag strip, mountain runs, many a highway mile spent at or close to redline. Hard but not abused, she will take it willingly.

my $.02 is you pull the plugs and see how they look.
next thought is to just take a torque wrench to the motor mount and subframe bolts..... I had a vibration develop after many, many miles and was just doing routine stuff when I noticed a subframe bolt that looked loose. sure enough it took 2 turns to snug it up so I decided to check a few others and the motor mount bolts took 1/4 turn each save for 1 on the right side.

 

[SandyN]

Those are great points as cleaners often continue to clean and oxidize long after the fact! Grab some MAF cleaner if contact cleaner is not available.

Although I can't relate as to how bad your vibration is; what do you have in those parts fuel quality wise? As stated, some fuel simply lights and burns better than others. Can you try a different brand or add some octane boost to it and report back?

Also - are you sure this vibe is not drivetrain related. I'm getting the idea that your in the same gear at 6500. Will it happen in all gears at 6500??

Running on Caltex 93 octane at +/- 4500 feet altitude. Will double check the vibes at higher revs but pretty sure happens in in each gear at the same rpm.

My chain has only needed adjustment once in 11,000 km but I did check the front sprocket which is slightly hooked. Rear sprocket still good and can hardly pull the chain away from it. BTW, I alternate using Fluid Film and Wynns chain wax on the chain.