I agree with Wavex. Fuel map is fixed, and can only be manipulated with a Power Commander and other means of by-passing the ECU's fuel mapping. It is primarily tuned to throttle position/rpm and air intake temperature.
Mild airbox mod
- Thread starter urbanj
- Start date
why the hate on signatures though? 
'Cuz reading yours is like reading the entire length of the Magna Carta! J/K:Sport:
J/K:Sport:
pchbreeze
Custom Abuser
That's very true. It gets rid of that whiny sound from the engine and you can hear a different tone in exhaust...from a modification of air pressure.
'Cuz reading yours is like reading the entire length of the Magna Carta!
lol, well it has been reduced lately, so you should be happy
You must have messed around with carbed RC cars when you were younger, and so you know that all engines have their own "sweet spot" in terms of fuel/air mixtures (sometimes a pain in the a** to find btw)... our engine was designed using a fixed air intake (stock airbox), and a fixed fuel injection map, based mainly on rpm. If you change any of these parameters, you do not know what you`re doing to your power band, unless you dyno.
Do we agree?
willoby61726
Junior Member
No offense to all you guys, but i would like to hear from a professional opinion. Not just someone "guessing", as to if this mod will hurt my beloved 04. I have already cut the baffles out of my stock can. That is the only "engine" mod I have done. If modding the airbox will hurt my bike more than helping it, then im leaving it the #@!$ alone. After all i want to enjoy my bike, not tear it up or turn it into a "track only" bike. So anyone with a professional opinion if this will hurt my motor or not would be greatly appreciated.:thumbup:
pchbreeze
Custom Abuser
absolutely, but it can go either way...for the good or bad. :Sport:
It actually has to do with the cam timing and piston position...don't remember much but the same thing causes that harmonic balance or whatever at every combustion engine at a specific rpm.
I really don't think its that big of a deal though
except with its super-awesome sound...nimzotech and i will do a side by side comparo with the M4's :thumbup: WOOT! I did a stock side by side with you and sportrider and the difference in tone is big...not just a little. i hope the same with the super-awesome airbox mod and M4's :Flash:
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OneTrack
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JOOC, did you get a 'professional opinion' before cutting the baffles out of your stock can...?
willoby61726
Junior Member
OK, you got me there!! The professional opinion states...the gutted can sounds awesome. FYI I did do the airbox mod this evening and i did notice a sharper throttle response and a little bit louder. I did not notice any "dead spots" in the RPM range. I ran it up to the 10k to 12k range. But this is my "professional opinion" haha.:rockon:
That's a quick turnaround (today) from "If modding the airbox will hurt my bike more than helping it, then im leaving it the #@!$ alone. After all i want to enjoy my bike, not tear it up or turn it into a "track only" bike." Don't you think?
OneTrack
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Sorry, mate....I just Couldn't resist the dig...I'm just going on "seat of the pants" results with my 06my FZ6, which now has Scorpions, a PCIII and a K&N filter. The bike runs great and sounds great, so I'm happy. I'm going to have it properly dyno'd during the summer at Skagit Powersports in Burlington, WA. It'll cost me $350 but at least I'll know that it's been set up right.
There's really no point in installing a Power Commander and just using a "canned" MAP...who knows what potential is not being utilized without a dyno test and PC adjustment?
corekneelius
Senior Member
I'm just going on "seat of the pants" results with my 06my FZ6, which now has Scorpions, a PCIII and a K&N filter. The bike runs great and sounds great, so I'm happy. I'm going to have it properly dyno'd during the summer at Skagit Powersports in Burlington, WA. It'll cost me $350 but at least I'll know that it's been set up right.
There's really no point in installing a Power Commander and just using a "canned" MAP...who knows what potential is not being utilized without a dyno test and PC adjustment?
agreed and agreed sir, good stuff man. anybody know of a good spot to have a professional dyno tune my bike around houston texas?
Doorag
Senior Member
So it sounds like
1. we can do the K&N mod without bollocking up the mapping
2. we can do an exhaust mod (but not the cat mod) without bollocking up the mapping
3. if we do both 1 & 2 we should get a PCIII and dyno time
4. if we do the cat mod (either on its own or in conjunction with 1 and/or 2) we should get a PCIII and dyno time
5. we are undecided about the airbox mod
6. mods are cool
1. we can do the K&N mod without bollocking up the mapping
2. we can do an exhaust mod (but not the cat mod) without bollocking up the mapping
3. if we do both 1 & 2 we should get a PCIII and dyno time
4. if we do the cat mod (either on its own or in conjunction with 1 and/or 2) we should get a PCIII and dyno time
5. we are undecided about the airbox mod
6. mods are cool
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Are you guys sure this thing does not have a map sensor, im a mechanic and that makes no sense to me at all, the same goes for if you remove the cat you need a pc why ?????????????????
jamesfz6
The faster red one!
I have about 10,000 miles with the air box mod. I did it last september and the bike has ran fine. It breathes better and every cruiser that i have had needed more air after i would put pipes on it so why should the fz be different?:thumbup:
You guys can say what you want about the mod. I have a lot of time with it and it hasnt hurt a thing.
You guys can say what you want about the mod. I have a lot of time with it and it hasnt hurt a thing.
urbanj
Junior Member
quick FI info session
Taken straight from the manual so this isnt me preaching what i already know.
pages 1-3
FI SYSTEM
The fuel pump delivers fuel to the injector via the fuel filter. The pressure regulator maintains the fuel
pressure that is applied to the injector at only 250 kPa (2.5 kg/cm2). Accordingly, when the energizing
signal from the ECU energizes the injector, the fuel passage opens, causing the fuel to be
injected into the intake manifold only during the time the passage remains open. Therefore, the
longer the length of time the injector is energized (injection duration), the greater the volume of fuel
that is supplied. Conversely, the shorter the length of time the injector is energized (injection duration),
the lesser the volume of fuel that is supplied.
The injection duration and the injection timing are controlled by the ECU. Signals that are input from
the throttle position sensor, crankshaft position sensor, intake air pressure sensor, intake temperature
sensor, coolant temperature sensor and O2 sensor enable the ECU to determine the injection
duration. The injection timing is determined through the signals from the crankshaft position sensor.
As a result, the volume of fuel that is required by the engine can be supplied at all times in accordance
with the driving conditions.
Now quoted from Wiki on MAP sensors
"A manifold absolute pressure sensor (MAP) is one of the sensors used in an internal combustion engine's electronic control system. Engines that use a MAP sensor are typically fuel injected. The manifold absolute pressure sensor provides instantaneous manifold pressure information to the engine's electronic control unit (ECU). This is necessary to calculate air density and determine the engine's air mass flow rate, which in turn is used to calculate the appropriate fuel flow."
"How the MAP value is used
The manifold absolute pressure measurement is used to meter fuel. The amount of fuel required is directly related to the mass of air entering the engine. (See stoichiometric.) The mass of air is proportional to the air density, which is proportional to the absolute pressure and inversely proportional to the absolute temperature. (See ideal gas law.) Engine speed determines the frequency, or rate, at which air mass is leaving the intake manifold and entering the cylinders.
(Engine Mass Airflow Rate) ˜ RPM × (Air Density)
or equivalently
(Engine Mass Airflow Rate) ˜ RPM × MAP / (absolute temperature)
Example
This example assumes the same engine speed and air temperature.
Condition 1:
An engine operating at WOT (wide open throttle) on top of a very high mountain has a MAP of about 15" Hg or 50 kPa (essentially equal to the barometer).
Condition 2:
The same engine at sea level will achieve 15" Hg of MAP at less than WOT due to the higher barometric pressure.
The engine requires the same mass of fuel in both conditions because the mass of air entering the cylinders is the same.
If the throttle is opened all the way in condition 2, the MAP will increase from 15" Hg to nearly 30" Hg (~100 kPa), about equal to the local barometer, which in condition 2 is sea level. The higher absolute pressure in the intake manifold increases the air's density, and in turn more fuel can be burned resulting in higher output.
Anyone who has driven up a high mountain is familiar with the reduction in engine output as altitude increases."
MAP sensor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
***** Now i don't see how people can put a set of cans on or an airfilter and not say that airflow hasnt changed but a simple airbox mod will screw everything up.
the only thing i could say and it would be a guess without a scanner, is that the voltage range of the pressure sensor is small and once you surpass what it can read (adding a k&n AND pipes) that it uses its max value and that is still not enough to supply enough fuel for the given amount of air.******
Taken straight from the manual so this isnt me preaching what i already know.
pages 1-3
FI SYSTEM
The fuel pump delivers fuel to the injector via the fuel filter. The pressure regulator maintains the fuel
pressure that is applied to the injector at only 250 kPa (2.5 kg/cm2). Accordingly, when the energizing
signal from the ECU energizes the injector, the fuel passage opens, causing the fuel to be
injected into the intake manifold only during the time the passage remains open. Therefore, the
longer the length of time the injector is energized (injection duration), the greater the volume of fuel
that is supplied. Conversely, the shorter the length of time the injector is energized (injection duration),
the lesser the volume of fuel that is supplied.
The injection duration and the injection timing are controlled by the ECU. Signals that are input from
the throttle position sensor, crankshaft position sensor, intake air pressure sensor, intake temperature
sensor, coolant temperature sensor and O2 sensor enable the ECU to determine the injection
duration. The injection timing is determined through the signals from the crankshaft position sensor.
As a result, the volume of fuel that is required by the engine can be supplied at all times in accordance
with the driving conditions.
Now quoted from Wiki on MAP sensors
"A manifold absolute pressure sensor (MAP) is one of the sensors used in an internal combustion engine's electronic control system. Engines that use a MAP sensor are typically fuel injected. The manifold absolute pressure sensor provides instantaneous manifold pressure information to the engine's electronic control unit (ECU). This is necessary to calculate air density and determine the engine's air mass flow rate, which in turn is used to calculate the appropriate fuel flow."
"How the MAP value is used
The manifold absolute pressure measurement is used to meter fuel. The amount of fuel required is directly related to the mass of air entering the engine. (See stoichiometric.) The mass of air is proportional to the air density, which is proportional to the absolute pressure and inversely proportional to the absolute temperature. (See ideal gas law.) Engine speed determines the frequency, or rate, at which air mass is leaving the intake manifold and entering the cylinders.
(Engine Mass Airflow Rate) ˜ RPM × (Air Density)
or equivalently
(Engine Mass Airflow Rate) ˜ RPM × MAP / (absolute temperature)
Example
This example assumes the same engine speed and air temperature.
Condition 1:
An engine operating at WOT (wide open throttle) on top of a very high mountain has a MAP of about 15" Hg or 50 kPa (essentially equal to the barometer).
Condition 2:
The same engine at sea level will achieve 15" Hg of MAP at less than WOT due to the higher barometric pressure.
The engine requires the same mass of fuel in both conditions because the mass of air entering the cylinders is the same.
If the throttle is opened all the way in condition 2, the MAP will increase from 15" Hg to nearly 30" Hg (~100 kPa), about equal to the local barometer, which in condition 2 is sea level. The higher absolute pressure in the intake manifold increases the air's density, and in turn more fuel can be burned resulting in higher output.
Anyone who has driven up a high mountain is familiar with the reduction in engine output as altitude increases."
MAP sensor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
***** Now i don't see how people can put a set of cans on or an airfilter and not say that airflow hasnt changed but a simple airbox mod will screw everything up.
the only thing i could say and it would be a guess without a scanner, is that the voltage range of the pressure sensor is small and once you surpass what it can read (adding a k&n AND pipes) that it uses its max value and that is still not enough to supply enough fuel for the given amount of air.******
pchbreeze
Custom Abuser
Re: quick FI info session
theories are great but i have YET to hear of someone on ANY bike having problems with this mod. On cars, they are called 'silencers'...gee, i wonder why? i did it to a brand new mustang and left more kick from a stop and never had engine problems and it helped the stock sound also.
People talk about what a map is and what the a/f is...but no one says how the mod is 'affected' because they dont know and don't do it. no one has had overheating problems from 'lean air' and no one has had dirty plugs from 'rich air'...and THAT is the bottom line. people are just talking against it because they don't understand the engine. sure, it COULD affect it negatively, but enough people have been doing it on cars and bikes and not had a problem.
theories are great but i have YET to hear of someone on ANY bike having problems with this mod. On cars, they are called 'silencers'...gee, i wonder why? i did it to a brand new mustang and left more kick from a stop and never had engine problems and it helped the stock sound also.
People talk about what a map is and what the a/f is...but no one says how the mod is 'affected' because they dont know and don't do it. no one has had overheating problems from 'lean air' and no one has had dirty plugs from 'rich air'...and THAT is the bottom line. people are just talking against it because they don't understand the engine. sure, it COULD affect it negatively, but enough people have been doing it on cars and bikes and not had a problem.
cruisers with FI?
Re: quick FI info session
I am not sure I get the point you were trying to make, but thank for you posting this ^^
It just goes to prove what I was saying previously.
The term above: "Engine Mass Airflow Rate" is the mass of air entering the engine via the airbox. It is a "rate", so it`s a fixed number based on the OEM design of the airbox (right?).
IF the FZ had a "Mass airflow sensor", I agree that the ECU would adjust the FI to that sensor output, along with the other parameters that the ECU considers. But if I am not mistaken, we don`t have such a sensor and thus rely only on air pressure/temp & rpm.
Again, this is how I understand FI engines
I am not sure I get the point you were trying to make, but thank for you posting this ^^
It just goes to prove what I was saying previously.
The term above: "Engine Mass Airflow Rate" is the mass of air entering the engine via the airbox. It is a "rate", so it`s a fixed number based on the OEM design of the airbox (right?
).IF the FZ had a "Mass airflow sensor", I agree that the ECU would adjust the FI to that sensor output, along with the other parameters that the ECU considers. But if I am not mistaken, we don`t have such a sensor and thus rely only on air pressure/temp & rpm.
Again, this is how I understand FI engines
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