Regarding Idle Bounce

[Zealot]

I've got a bouncing idle problem much like the guy in this video. It happens to me once the bike warms up a bit.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUsMO0KM-9w[/ame]

As far as I know, there are a couple of possible causes:
-ECU needs to be ran through to remap itself after having the battery disconnected.
-Mixture likely running lean due to two brothers pipes (one cat remains along the bottom)
-Throttle Bodies need to be sync'd
-Idle Screw might need a tiny tweak
-Cold Weather

I picked up a Power Commander, but only recently learned about the fact it cannot change the fuel mix below certain thresholds due to the closed loop nature. While the rest of my intended fixes (throttle snatchiness, RPM deadzones) will still apply, I thought it might give me a shot at fixing the bouncing idle through enriching the mixture slightly. In this regard, I'm stuck as to if there is something else I could do to fix the closed loop portion. The only ideas that comes to mind would be to remove the O2 sensor to prevent ECU correction and allow the PC to override it, and using smog block off plates. Would either of those work? In regards to the PC3 maps and smog plates - would using an aftermarket air filter cause my mixture to run more lean, or would it be a relatively safe upgrade to allow the bike to get more oxygen as required?

I'm going to be syncing the throttle bodies soon once the weather warms up a bit, and am in the process of getting the parts together - if only the cursed vacuum connectors could be easily found near where I live. Thankfully Napa has pulled through for me and I found some proper fitting pieces that will allow me to continue with construction. This might even out a cylinder that's either surging or loping and throwing the idle off - plus improving bike handling. In addition to this, I might give the idle screw a little tweak to see if it smooths out by adjusting it up or down slightly.

Edit: Maybe plugs and coils?

Not a lot of people seem to have this issue, but it worries me since I want everything running as best it can before I get out on the road, and I'm interested in learning about what my options might be to fix it. Any further input is appreciated!

 

[FIZZER6]

I have a 2006 with slip on pipes (Scorpions) and mine has ALWAYS had a lopey idle like that only when the engine is warm and I start it. From cold start it is smooth but if the engine is warm it will always do that for the first 15-30 seconds unless I rev it up to 4K or so a couple times. Once it's run for a few minutes or revved though it stables out so I've never worried about it. I really don't think this is a problem if it doesn't still do this the when you've been riding awhile and come to a stop.

 

[Zealot]

I have a 2006 with slip on pipes (Scorpions) and mine has ALWAYS had a lopey idle like that only when the engine is warm and I start it. From cold start it is smooth but if the engine is warm it will always do that for the first 15-30 seconds unless I rev it up to 4K or so a couple times. Once it's run for a few minutes or revved though it stables out so I've never worried about it. I really don't think this is a problem if it doesn't still do this the when you've been riding awhile and come to a stop.

That's reassuring to hear, although in my case it came about during winterization where I let the bike idle for 20 minutes to get the fuel stabilizer through (Unless fuel stabilizer is the problem?). I revved it here and there and it still persisted. I'm sure a longer ride would help me see whether or not it goes away, and that if it isn't a permanent thing then it's not a big deal, but I'd like to try and fix it from its source... Whatever that happens to be. It just says to me that something if amiss in how it's running, and I'd love to figure out exactly why.

 

[FIZZER6]

If you figure it out I'd be happy to know what causes it! Syncing my throttle bodies does seem to make it less obvious. It does seem to do it more in the winter when I'm only riding the bike a couple times a month and it sits with fuel stabilizer in it (I use seafoam).

 

[FinalImpact]

So your bike is an S2 with a main-CAT delete, it idles unsteady and has a throttle snatch. Here is what I can tell you from my experience.

1) For a piggyback controller to fuel per the MAP it has on board, you must disconnect the O2 sensor. Otherwise the ECU will be making adjustments to the combined pair and give unpredictable results.

2) Smog plates only need to be installed for a dyno run (or while monitoring AFR). They let air into the exhaust which would make an O2 sniffer want to richen the mixture more than needed. If you're simply taking a map and throwing it at a bike, it will not effect its performance.

3) Throttle Sync by the book may not cure your unstable idle. I'll come back to this.

4) If you're running an after-market fuel controller you must set your TPS voltage to that controller. This can impact idle and map performance. I'm not sure if DG maps follow the controller or .djm map. But if you borrow a map, verify TPS at idle or it will not behave properly. WOT is not as critical but should be set to your bike.

5) On my 08 without a F/C the bike adapts to mods like CANs and CAT delete. That said, adding fuel via CO (C1/C2) adjustment will reduce the throttle snatch issue if your controller will not fuel from idle to 5K.
THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES! One of them is idle quality. BUT, IT CAN BE FIXED too by backing out the sync screws (lean it out).

6) If your bike stalls while hot and taking off or stalls when coming down from higher RPMs its likely lean at idle. Connect a vacuum gauge and set the idle speed to 1250 - 1300 and observe the vacuum reading.
* From here there are two ways to adjust it. Move ALL FOUR SYNC SCREWS IN to richen the mixture or OUT to LEAN IT OUT. The vacuum gauge will lower when rich and increase when lean. To lean and it stalls and has throttle snatch.
** Off hand, it sounds too rich and needs the sync screws backed out. Disconnect the BATTERY and UNPLUG the O2 sensor BEFORE MAKING ADJUSTMENTS!!
WARM, RUN IT, and VERIFY its behavior. If it's still looping, Lift the tank and turn the 4 sync screws out 1/2 turn // maybe try 3/4 or 1 full turn and see if the idle smooths out.
- OPTION TWO: ENABLE and READ and/or adjust the CO (C1/C2) values. Increasing them will richen the mixture, reduce the throttle chop and FORCE YOU to back out the sync screws to lean it out.

7) Add ignition timing. This will help your throttle chop. Doing this action means you need to run higher octane fuel ALWAYS.

My Bazzaz controller fuels from idle on up. It DOES Alter the fueling at idle. I can not comment on the DJ PC controller.

Do a search on some of my threads. Ones of interest are tagged JJD952.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

My 07, open Scorp's, iridiums, everything else bone stock, idles with MAYBE 50 RPM's variance at about 1,100 (@ operating temp).

I do have the sync within 3mm's (spec allows 10mms).

 

[Motogiro]

Cover one of your exhaust pipes with your hand or a rag. Does the hunting idle calm down/stop?

 

[FIZZER6]

Cover one of your exhaust pipes with your hand or a rag. Does the hunting idle calm down/stop?

Meaning it's too little back pressure? I'm going to try that too!

 

[FinalImpact]

Any PCIII owners know if they add fuel at idle? 1 - 1.5k?
Id guess unplugging the o2 and disconnect the battery as the PC map is being modified with the o2 sensor online. Its supposed to be disconnected i.e. it defeats PCIII purpose having it connected as the OEM ecu will adjust to undo anything that controller is doing.


As stated, mines not a PC bit it fuels at idle so it could go fat rich or super lean if told to do so. FWIW bike does not complain about O2 sensor being disconnected.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

Any PCIII owners know if they add fuel at idle? 1 - 1.5k?
Id guess unplugging the o2 and disconnect the battery as the PC map is being modified with the o2 sensor online. Its supposed to be disconnected i.e. it defeats PCIII purpose having it connected as the OEM ecu will adjust to undo anything that controller is doing.


As stated, mines not a PC bit it fuels at idle so it could go fat rich or super lean if told to do so. FWIW bike does not complain about O2 sensor being disconnected.

According to the PCIII software, you can indeed change the values between 1-1.5k rpm.

The TPS values are: 0 2 5 10 20 40 60 80 100

The RPM values are: 500 750 1000 1250 1500 1750 and so on up to 15000 by increments of 250 RPM.

I don't actually know if these values take effect on the RPMs that low, but the option to change them is in fact available.

 

[Zealot]

So your bike is an S2 with a main-CAT delete, it idles unsteady and has a throttle snatch. Here is what I can tell you from my experience.

1) For a piggyback controller to fuel per the MAP it has on board, you must disconnect the O2 sensor. Otherwise the ECU will be making adjustments to the combined pair and give unpredictable results.

2) Smog plates only need to be installed for a dyno run (or while monitoring AFR). They let air into the exhaust which would make an O2 sniffer want to richen the mixture more than needed. If you're simply taking a map and throwing it at a bike, it will not effect its performance.

3) Throttle Sync by the book may not cure your unstable idle. I'll come back to this.

4) If you're running an after-market fuel controller you must set your TPS voltage to that controller. This can impact idle and map performance. I'm not sure if DG maps follow the controller or .djm map. But if you borrow a map, verify TPS at idle or it will not behave properly. WOT is not as critical but should be set to your bike.

5) On my 08 without a F/C the bike adapts to mods like CANs and CAT delete. That said, adding fuel via CO (C1/C2) adjustment will reduce the throttle snatch issue if your controller will not fuel from idle to 5K.
THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES! One of them is idle quality. BUT, IT CAN BE FIXED too by backing out the sync screws (lean it out).

6) If your bike stalls while hot and taking off or stalls when coming down from higher RPMs its likely lean at idle. Connect a vacuum gauge and set the idle speed to 1250 - 1300 and observe the vacuum reading.
* From here there are two ways to adjust it. Move ALL FOUR SYNC SCREWS IN to richen the mixture or OUT to LEAN IT OUT. The vacuum gauge will lower when rich and increase when lean. To lean and it stalls and has throttle snatch.
** Off hand, it sounds too rich and needs the sync screws backed out. Disconnect the BATTERY and UNPLUG the O2 sensor BEFORE MAKING ADJUSTMENTS!!
WARM, RUN IT, and VERIFY its behavior. If it's still looping, Lift the tank and turn the 4 sync screws out 1/2 turn // maybe try 3/4 or 1 full turn and see if the idle smooths out.
- OPTION TWO: ENABLE and READ and/or adjust the CO (C1/C2) values. Increasing them will richen the mixture, reduce the throttle chop and FORCE YOU to back out the sync screws to lean it out.

7) Add ignition timing. This will help your throttle chop. Doing this action means you need to run higher octane fuel ALWAYS.

My Bazzaz controller fuels from idle on up. It DOES Alter the fueling at idle. I can not comment on the DJ PC controller.

Do a search on some of my threads. Ones of interest are tagged JJD952.

Okay, so I'm going to disconnect the O2 sensor and thus allow the PC unit to override the default ECU, even within the closed loop thresholds. I would need to determine just what to adjust for the lower section in order to smooth out the idle, but I read something over on the R6 forums where somebody had the same problem and adding some 3s and 4s to the lower ranges fixed his problem outright - so I'm going to start with that and tweak it a bit to see.

power commander map help : Yamaha R6 : R6 Forum

As far as TPS voltage is concerned, it seems that the PC3 reads by throttle position - and I'd be able to check how well it lines up with my bike since, yes, I'm using another map to start and experiment a little. Within the program you can do a throttle sync when it's connected to your bike, which should hopefully take care of things without too much hassle!

As for hot take offs and stalling, I can't say anything yet. Need to wait for some warmer days where I can get out on the road and see how it handles. I'd rather handle any sort of fueling concerns through the PC if that's possible (which it seems would be, barring I remove the O2 sensor) since it will make tweaking easier. Could you elaborate on how TB sync might not cure my idle? I thought at the very least there's a chance it could help - since I don't know what kind of maintenance has been done on this bike up until I got it. I'm trying to make sure it's running at its best, and going through as many steps as I can to fix it. My only indicator of maintenance aside from word of mouth (got new synthetic oil in September, etc) is a worn out tag on the keyring which says "Ignition" from 2013 - so I'm trying to cover as many bases as I can.

Going to check out some more of your threads!

Cover one of your exhaust pipes with your hand or a rag. Does the hunting idle calm down/stop?

I'll check this out too when I get a chance! I've got a feeling that it's the open pipes being the main problem, although I can't think of a solution for it. The only way to add backpressure would be to block it off again somehow, but I read things from people with open pipes and no cats at all who aren't having and trouble with this. Why would mine in particular be doing this?

 

[FinalImpact]

S2 open loop is NO input from O2 sensor = its running off the MAP like an S1.

S2 in CLOSED LOOP = reading O2 sensor and adjusting AFR. Again, disconnect O2 sensor per DJ PC installation instructions. Disconnect battery so its running off the default ECU map as a baseline.

In short, I was saying you need to verify TPS closed and set it within PC software. If off, it can play a roll as it may come on late or early.

 

[FinalImpact]

If you've added fuel by some "other means" than a sync by the book may never be right if you DO NOT MOVE #1. So the trick is adding the right amount of fuel just off idle.

In short; to rid it of the throttle snatch you need to add fuel in that 1900 - 5500 RPM zone.

 

[seansi]

Did the PC3 fix the throttle chop?

I just picked one up off of ebay and will be installing it soon.

I'm pretty sure my idle bounces about 50 rpms after running it for about 5 min(between 1250-1300.

Is it really that much of an issue?

 

[Zealot]

S2 open loop is NO input from O2 sensor = its running off the MAP like an S1.

S2 in CLOSED LOOP = reading O2 sensor and adjusting AFR. Again, disconnect O2 sensor per DJ PC installation instructions. Disconnect battery so its running off the default ECU map as a baseline.

In short, I was saying you need to verify TPS closed and set it within PC software. If off, it can play a roll as it may come on late or early.

If you've added fuel by some "other means" than a sync by the book may never be right if you DO NOT MOVE #1. So the trick is adding the right amount of fuel just off idle.

In short; to rid it of the throttle snatch you need to add fuel in that 1900 - 5500 RPM zone.

Noted! Going to take care of the O2 sensor and following that, some slight tweaks to the idle fueling on the map - then see what happens. Thanks for the info, Final! I'm still interested in knowing what you spoke of when you mentioned TB sync, and that you'd elaborate!

 

[Zealot]

Well, I've been riding around for the last couple of days and only seem to have partly solved the bouncing idle. It still sometimes gives me that ugly wub wub wub sound instead of a smooth purr...

After riding the bike home the other day I tweaked the idle screw a bit while it was still running and seemed to have smoothed it out. Went on a second ride later and the wubbing was back after a minute. I went home and tried again, tweaking it a bit more (last time I turned the idle up and smoothed it out, and was able to back it off a little without it reverting - until I rode, that is) and keeping it turned up a little higher. Seems like it did the trick - so long as my bike was at its peak operating temperature, somewhere up over 70 degrees. Warming up, it still wubs around 60 degrees (nothing before then), and despite the fact that I thought the bouncing was gone - it comes back now even at what I previously thought was the correct adjustment and temperature. My current idle is sitting close to 1350-1400, and according to the manual I shouldn't go higher than that - and I'd like to fix the bike within specs if at all possible.

As per Motogiro's suggestion, holding my hand over one of the exhaust pipes appears to alleviate the issue. I'm not really sure where to go from here as far as fixing the thing is concerned, although I'm debating some DB killers as my pipes wear on me a little over the course of longer rides. Would DB killers create back pressure? Perhaps the PC3 + O2 sensor removal to fix idle? The bike runs perfectly fine otherwise with no issues up through the rev range as far as I can tell.

 

[ChanceCoats123]

If you need to add fuel and don't want to start by spending $300 or so on a power commander, try adjusting the C0 and C1 settings on the bike. They control idle and low rpm fueling and might just help you out with getting rid of up the wub wubs.

 

[FinalImpact]

You have 3 ways to change the idle mixture. Pick one and run with it.

TB sync screws, add / subtract air
CO (ECU offset to AFR) change C1/C2 values to add / subtract fuel
PCiii /PC v, add / subtract fuel

On the Bazzaz software, every single digit change impacts the AFR by ~ 0.1 (##.1 +/-.1) So, for example if it was idling at a ratio of 15.0:1 you could add fuel (a positive value) to richen the mixture. Example: Adding 5, 5, 5 i.e. (@1000, 1250, 1500 RPM) would change the AFR from 15.0:1 to 14.5:1.
Based on what Chance posted, edit this area;
TPS = 0 @1000, 1250, 1500 RPM and go that route or monkey with ALL 4 TB sync screws.

The problem is you don't know what the AFR is; so, you now you treat it like an old carb'ed engine and adjust until it runs how you expect it. This is best done with a vacuum gauge while attempting to maintain a desired RPM. More RPM almost always increases vacuum. So the trick is to maintain the same rpm but alter the AFR to obtain a stable RPM. Essentially this will be a dance or balancing act of Idle Speed knob vs the 4 sync screws. Higher vacuum is almost always lean. Lower vacuum is almost always rich.

Unless someone has a need for the details I'm not going there.

 

[Motogiro]

Did you (OP) ever get a chance to cover one of your pipes to confirm whether added back pressure smoothed out the hunting idle?

 

[FinalImpact]

Did you (OP) ever get a chance to cover one of your pipes to confirm whether added back pressure smoothed out the hunting idle?

Its in OPs post 16.... It appears to have helped.

JM2C - record all changes as one day you might remove the controller and if the CO and TB sync values can't be returned to original, well its just gonna take longer.

IF however, you **CAN GET IT RIGHT** by playing with the just the PC via software, when you yank it, the bike goes back to normal. :thumbup: