Timing help...... Please

[erburtt]

So I just re-shimmed all my exhaust valves, went very well... then came setting the timing because I was dumb and didnt ziptie the chain to the other sprockets, so the timing was off when I reinstalled the exhaust cam.

I have the two cam timing marks perfectly opposing each other, the T on the crankshaft I cannot for the life of me get to match up with the line on the crankcase. See photos for reference.





Is this close enough? I have literally tried to redo it probably 5 times (the cam chain tensioner is horribly horribly annoying). I feel like one tooth back will make the T lower than the line...For those who have done this properly, what did it look like? were all timing marks perfectly aligned, or did it look like my pics?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Cams look good but I can't see the mark on the block for the "T" to match up.

Can you clean the gasket surface down to aluminum?

If the cam chain tensioner is still out, you may have enough room to move the chain on the crank.

If not, pull one cam, align the crank first, then the chain TAUGHT to the exhaust cam, then the exhaust cam to the intake cam/sprocket.

NOTE: the chain tension on the cams are good, the FRONT RUN to the CRANK also NEEDS TO BE TAUGHT (when checking the timing). All chain play should be at the rear, by the tensioner(CCT)..

 

[erburtt]

The little line you see is the crankcase split, it's got a little excess sealant or whatever they used oozing out ever so slightly

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

The chain is going to stretch some with wear and tear. The more mileage, the more wear, more the marks WILL be off...

As noted above,

START with the crank on TDC, marks dead nuts on.
Then, with the chain taught on the FRONT run, line up the exhaust cam. (Keep in mind, as the chain stretches, the marks move some).
Then, line up the intake cam with the chain taught across the top.


Put in the CCT, and slowly turn it over by hand, CLOCKWISE to re-check your marks...

 

[erburtt]

To be honest I'd forgotten about the fact that maybe the chain stretched a touch, it does have 70,000 km on it, if my thinking is correct, the T mark would be slightly above the line if both cams are dead on with the head line. One thing that's been baffling me was I zip tied the chain to the cam gears when I was fiddling with the crankshaft, I also sharpied on them to mark the spot, once I got it where I thought it should be, I reinstalled the cct then cut the zip ties, no teeth were skipped but after a few revolutions the sharpie marks don't line up ever again?...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

If you had ANY slack in the top and forward runs, it'd screw things up..

But definitely start with the crank ON TDC, etc, etc...

 

[FinalImpact]

So I just re-shimmed all my exhaust valves, went very well... then came setting the timing because I was dumb and didnt ziptie the chain to the other sprockets, so the timing was off when I reinstalled the exhaust cam.

I have the two cam timing marks perfectly opposing each other, the T on the crankshaft I cannot for the life of me get to match up with the line on the crankcase. See photos for reference.

View attachment 66067

View attachment 66068

Is this close enough? I have literally tried to redo it probably 5 times (the cam chain tensioner is horribly horribly annoying). I feel like one tooth back will make the T lower than the line...For those who have done this properly, what did it look like? were all timing marks perfectly aligned, or did it look like my pics?

Honestly I think you're OK. was it off that far when you tore it down?
Have you rotated it through 720° and STOPPED the Crank on the T - Case line and what do the cams marks look like then? DO THIS BY HAND with a short ratchet or tiny breaker bar JUST IN CASE THE VALVES HIT the pistons!!! Obviously DO NOT Rotate ANY MORE if it hits and binds. Stop and back up or take the cams out and start over.
In the perfect world they do align better than that, however, it could be chain stretch. How many miles on this engine?

Is there any chance someone has advanced the ignition trigger wheel?? Likely NOT but I had to ask!

In this photo my trigger wheel is advanced from 5.0° stock to 11.5° and it looks like this:

Advanced 6.5° makes it look like this (Rotates clockwise ~0.105" on the outer edge)

Here I used a dial indicator to determine TOP DEAD CENTER, meaning the mark should align but it doesn't because my trigger wheel is slotted and advanced.

Rotate it through 720 and check it CAMS WHEN the CRANK is SPOT on the Case Split....

Scott, we can't see the T line but the double camel humps are at the dowel pin and that is correct.

 

[FinalImpact]

[MENTION=23363]erburtt[/MENTION]

I saw your PM - hopefully the post above answers that. Did you see this? Setting Cam Timing posts 23 & 33

And could you post your AS FOUND and AS LEFT valve lash numbers in the link here? Thanks!

 

[erburtt]

Honestly I think you're OK. was it off that far when you tore it down?
DO THIS BY HAND with a short ratchet or tiny breaker bar JUST IN CASE THE VALVES HIT the pistons!!! Obviously DO NOT Rotate ANY MORE if it hits and binds. Stop and back up or take the cams out and start over.
How many miles on this engine?

Is there any chance someone has advanced the ignition trigger wheel?? Likely NOT but I had to ask!

.

I rotated it through probably 5 miles yesterday haha,I never felt any resistance and I was turning it with a very small ratchet (spark plugs out). I decided I was okay with it, one gear cog back and the T was too low, the bike has 45,000 miles on it, and I've owned it since 6,000 and 2013 so I am confident no-one has played with advancing the trigger, it actually used to belong to a pretty active forum member from what I can tell. I figured any stretch or wear in the chain would show with the T mark being slightly high.

It looks like your trigger advance just less, I suppose your bike would still be at TDC though with the trigger moved, so as I was wearily hoping last night, age hasn't contibuted to any ignition advance because of a worn chain.

Thanks for the replies and help, only ting left to do is fill the rad and start it up... oh and change my fork oil, the job I had actually set out to do... also doesnt look like I'll be taking her out for a test ride anytime soon...

 

[FinalImpact]

When you rotated and stopped the T line on the case split, how far off were the cam marks to the heads valve cover deck?

Obviously one tooth is pretty noticeable as it advances or retards the cam(s) +/- ~8° or so. The exhaust can handle being advanced some, the intake not so much as it an interference fit engine and out of time and she runs the valves into the pistons!

Let us know what you remember seeing if you didn't capture a picture.

FWIW; Advancing the ignition timing wakes the engine up substantially!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Did you assemble and start it yet?

 

[erburtt]

Reassembly (with new fork oil) happened yesterday, I nervously started it and it sounded good, normal if not a little smoother. It ran a little rich at the start but it started to look and smell normal as I let it idle for a bit. I assume this is from unplugging the battery for a couple days and the ECU relearning the fuel air mixture.

I dont know if it was just wishful thinking but it seemed like I had a bit sharper throttle response when I revved it occasionally. Glad to get it done and I'm looking forward to all this snow melting so maybe I can take it out for a ride.. potentially taking it across the country this coming season

 

[FinalImpact]

Good to hear. And yes, opening and closing all the valves at the proper time produces a smoother more linear (crisp) throttle response.

Question remains; when the Cranks T aligned to the case, what did your cams position look like?

 

[erburtt]

Good to hear. And yes, opening and closing all the valves at the proper time produces a smoother more linear (crisp) throttle response.

Question remains; when the Cranks T aligned to the case, what did your cams position look like?

They were both slightly retarded, like the intake mark was a mm or so below the head line and the exhaust mark was a mm or so above the head line. I remember it not being on 100% when I disassembled (I'll know for next time to take more pictures, guess I just got excited when I was disassembling) so I'm okay with it. Must just be a product of a well used engine, this bike has taken me a lot of places using 100% of the rev range quite often.

 

[FinalImpact]

Perfect example +/- 1mm as a full tooth off is more like 7 to 8mm (guess)... Thats what people need to know. Think in terms of +/- 1 chain link ~ 8°...

The variance from nominal can also be attributed to guide wear on the forward chain guide. As it looses material, the chain to the crank straightens out which retards the cam timing like you stated. Exhaust is above and intake is below the line like yours.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

As your now an expert in the timing procedure, R &Ring the cam chain and front guide should be a piece of cake for you next winter (or this winter).

Its not terribly expensive and the bike would run slightly better yet having the timing dead nuts on.

It wouldn't hurt to do a throttle sync as well, especially with the shim change...

Great job!

 

[erburtt]

As your now an expert in the timing procedure, R &Ring the cam chain and front guide should be a piece of cake for you next winter (or this winter).

Its not terribly expensive and the bike would run slightly better yet having the timing dead nuts on.

It wouldn't hurt to do a throttle sync as well, especially with the shim change...

Great job!

I did consider replacing the chain, kind of wishing I did, but it would probably take 2 weeks to get the parts for it and I didn't want to leave my grandmas garage in a state while I waited, oh well, a fun project for next winter when I get missing the bike.

I usually do a throttle body sync every spring after my first 2 weeks of riding or so, might move that up and do it with an earlier oil change this time, now this is done though there's no excuse to start tearing down my dads '79 RD400 Daytona special for a restoration...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

'79 RD400 Daytona special[/B] for a restoration...

My first street bike was a 1975, orange RD 350, neat bike, the Daytona, if the yellow and black bumble bee paint, is absolutely awesome..


I wish I could find find someone down here to do a custom, show paint job, to the FZ in the old Yamaha black and yellow, RD colors.

 

[madmike111185]

Looks to me you need to drop you cct... bring your bike back to T.D.C looks like your off a bit from the pic and from there with the cct.. off you can roll the chine one tooth at a time until you get it where you want it

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

 

[FinalImpact]

Perfect example +/- 1mm as a full tooth off is more like 7 to 8mm (guess)... Thats what people need to know. Think in terms of +/- 1 chain link ~ 8°...

The variance from nominal can also be attributed to guide wear on the forward chain guide. As it looses material, the chain to the crank straightens out which retards the cam timing like you stated. Exhaust is above and intake is below the line like yours.

Looks to me you need to drop you cct... bring your bike back to T.D.C looks like your off a bit from the pic and from there with the cct.. off you can roll the chine one tooth at a time until you get it where you want it

Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk

Give that some thought as it cant be off a whole tooth on either cam...