Turbo time

[urbanj]

One more thing is the fz6 uses a speed density instead of a maf sensor. There is no way for speed density system to adjust or compensate for fuel or timing for boost pressures. It would have to be changed to a maf. Or you could preset it at 6 psi, but will be rich on the bottom end.

I don't know any top knotch standalone ecu's that run mafs. maf's create a huge restriction. But then again at 5psi you most likely not be able to see it. A 3 bar map sensor will be good for more boost than anyone would throw at our bikes.

I quickly searched and this is the smallest turbo that garrett makes which they say is good for motorcycles and 130hp. But even at a pressure ratio of 1.43 (5psi) its barely on the compressor map, regardless of how much air the motor pushes. off the top of my head our motor at max VE pushes around 7 lbs/min. and almost 10 at 14000rpm.

TurboByGarrett.com - Catalog

Actually I was looking over the site and I recommend reading the expert tech section or just from the beginning if you are learning.

 

[MarcW]

i'm amazed there are no haters in this thread yet.

i deal with haters like i deal with Fruity pebbles mang. eat em and **** em out

we (me and my roomate) will be turbo-ing his R1 at the same time. blow through carb app. we are still on the turbo search. i have a couple compressors already in the garage, but like i already mentioned, i think there too big. have a set of factory S4 (B6) turbo'es. we are gonna go look at some volvo turbo'es this weekend. his is going to be on the front of the bike, while mine's location is still up in the air.

 

[Fred]

I've got a Garrett GT-12 sitting on my workbench right now with blown oil seals.

It blew the oil seals because it was spinning too fast because my 750cc engine pumped too much air through it.

The moral of that story is don't trust the displacement numbers that Garrett posts. According to displacement and HP, it was the perfect turbo. But when I calculated airflow, the true results were somewhat different.

I'm putting on a larger GT-15 now.

Also, the oil feed and drain fitting on the GT-12 is one of the most pain in the ___ designs ever. It took me a week of careful machining to make something that would bolt on to it and seal adequately.

 

[Fred]

maf's create a huge restriction.

Depends on the type. The old style flapper valves, yeah, they do. You've got a round tube going to a square tube, and then there's this big metal swinging door blocking the intake! Then it abruptly transitions back to a round tube. The airflow through one of those is horrible, especially at part throttle where the door is not fully open.

Thankfully somebody invented the hot wire setup. It's an open tube with a piece of thin wire strung across the middle. The restriction is almost nonexistent.

I actually like the idea of MAF turbo systems. A lot of car turbos are MAF, I believe.

MAF has the wonderful advantage of being able to compensate for various engine factors. Valves out of spec and not flowing air as well? MAF will see it and adjust. Losing compression? MAF will adjust for that. Plugged air filter? MAF can handle it. Banana in your tailpipe? MAF will probably handle that too.

The problem with MAF is that it does add another bulky gadget to the intake. And on a bike there's often no room for it.

I'm going off subject. OK, yeah, back to the item at hand, a turbo FZ6.

If I was going to do it (and I swore when I bought this bike that I would not do it) I'd put the turbo at the back of the header, between the cat and the 4-2-1 collector. You could locate it right where the exhaust makes that tight 90 degree bend.

You're keeping the existing header, which is very well designed.

The distance shouldn't be that big of a problem. I've heard tales of Camero's with the turbos mounted under the trunk. I suspect that the turbo will also run cooler, which may extend its TBO (Time Between Overhauls)

You'd need an oil scavenge pump for the turbo since it couldn't gravity drain in that location.

I wouldn't exceed 5PSI. But don't scoff at 5PSI. 5 pounds of boost will really wake up a sluggish vehicle. And the FZ6 wasn't sluggish to begin with.

Fred

 

[urbanj]

I wasn't even looking at the engine size specs. I was looking at the compressor map. At speeds other than max rpm our engine will barely be on the map. I'm sure it will work but it won't make the most of its intended application and be choking it at lower speeds. but really, ive never driven a turbo bike and maybe making boost at 3000-6000rpm would be hard to handle. I reploted it quickly not taking into account the little things and at 7500+ rpm that turbo would suit it well.

And most standalone fuel management systems I know run MAP's. eg haltech, microtech and AEM. My understanding is the maf is sluggish vs map's and any leak in the air intake system after the maf will cause lean conditions. not what you'd want on a turbo vehicle.

Back to setting it up. I wonder how a rising rate FPR or a pc3 would fair if we can upgrade the pressure sensor to a 2 bar one?

 

[Hellgate]

Great thread!

DI - At the "other" place I think there would be haters. I've notice that on this forum people are very creative and are willing to try new things and experiment kinda like our modded air box discussion.

I've owned two turbo cars a loved them, I had a '96 Audi A4 Quatro and a '03 VW Passat, both had pretty much the same motor, a 1.8 with the 5 valve head. What a great engine. Audi was one of the first to develop the low compression turbo idea, ie: less boost, more engine compession. This combination solves much of the spool up issue. When cruising a highway speeds all you needed to do was punch it and it went.

I'd think a small turbo would work best and the placement would be great where Fred recommended it, right past the collector. You'd need a big honkin' oil cooler but I think that could be double stack in front of the radiator, or just below it.

I'm no air box expert and I think that might be the weak link in the chain, not sure. For NA motors a large air box is best (think Buell) not sure about a blown motor, smaller or larger???

I think a dyno tune on the 4 Gas EGA would solve the mixture issue if a PCIII was used.

The turbo kit from Asia is about $10,000. I think a good fabricator could create an equal system for much less and keep stock look to the bike.

If I hate the time I'd love to try this project. The whole thinkering and problem solving thing is really fun. Some people will say why not buy and FZ1, etc. but the whole point of a project like this is the creation and being able to say that you conceived the idea and made it.

 

[urbanj]

Great thread!

DI - At the \"other\" place I think there would be haters. I've notice that on this forum people are very creative and are willing to try new things and experiment kinda like our modded air box discussion.

I also think people here are humble and willing to learn. If someone knows something of value and shows how it works instead of just saying how it is, we all take it as gained knowledge instead bashing someone. it's one of the reasons i don't really post on the other forum. I love to learn new things and be taught cause you never know it all.

the only turbo car i owned myself was a rx7. i was going to go all into building it but when it came to tuning fuel and spark on a rotary, one mistake means blown motor and i didn't have the money to "learn". My friend has a 450hp talon that we did lots with. those thing make power so easy. just with bolt-ons and tuning with a wideband o2. i started on a turbo civic project but i scraped it when I got into bikes.

I was looking into it and the fz6 uses the same pressure sensor as the r6 and r1. when i type in the part number they all come up. so we need to find whats used in these turbo kits. I cant find info on what the sensor will read to but considering the r6 and r1 uses ram air it may be good for the 5psi we are talking about.

 

[urbanj]

did a quick search. one company from uk make one for the r1 for street applications. the only fuel mods in the kit is............................ an upgraded fuel pump and a rising rate regulator. Which is the most crude way of adjusting fuel you can do. the bigger stage 3 race kits use bigger injectors, motec ecu etc for tuning. pretty much the best way. but the stage 2's still use the FMU with the suggestion of

"Alternatively for best performance we highly recommend the use of MOTEC engine management, this will enable the use of 1000cc or even 1200cc Low impedence injectors & boost control to 45psi! Please call for more details"

So for a mild turbo setup on the fz6, this just might be very easy to do...............

 

[DefyInertia]

Great thread!

DI - At the \\"other\\" place I think there would be haters. I've notice that on this forum people are very creative and are willing to try new things and experiment kinda like our modded air box discussion.

Should I go snag the quote from the "other" place where you completely slammed a guy for mentioning a turbo FZ6 not that long ago? When in Rome?

 

[Nelly]

This is very interesting indeed, I am learning loads.
Would it be possible to use the space under the seat for an oil cooler? Or will the modded air box come this far back?

Cheers

Nelly

 

[poorwboy]

Depends on the type. The old style flapper valves, yeah, they do. You've got a round tube going to a square tube, and then there's this big metal swinging door blocking the intake! Then it abruptly transitions back to a round tube. The airflow through one of those is horrible, especially at part throttle where the door is not fully open.

Thankfully somebody invented the hot wire setup. It's an open tube with a piece of thin wire strung across the middle. The restriction is almost nonexistent.

I actually like the idea of MAF turbo systems. A lot of car turbos are MAF, I believe.

MAF has the wonderful advantage of being able to compensate for various engine factors. Valves out of spec and not flowing air as well? MAF will see it and adjust. Losing compression? MAF will adjust for that. Plugged air filter? MAF can handle it. Banana in your tailpipe? MAF will probably handle that too.

The problem with MAF is that it does add another bulky gadget to the intake. And on a bike there's often no room for it.

I'm going off subject. OK, yeah, back to the item at hand, a turbo FZ6.

If I was going to do it (and I swore when I bought this bike that I would not do it) I'd put the turbo at the back of the header, between the cat and the 4-2-1 collector. You could locate it right where the exhaust makes that tight 90 degree bend.

You're keeping the existing header, which is very well designed.

The distance shouldn't be that big of a problem. I've heard tales of Camero's with the turbos mounted under the trunk. I suspect that the turbo will also run cooler, which may extend its TBO (Time Between Overhauls)

You'd need an oil scavenge pump for the turbo since it couldn't gravity drain in that location.

I wouldn't exceed 5PSI. But don't scoff at 5PSI. 5 pounds of boost will really wake up a sluggish vehicle. And the FZ6 wasn't sluggish to begin with.

Fred

Ah the first sentence reminds me of the good ole ford 2.3 turbo days.
I have had alot of problems running speed density systems. I have good luck with map and maf systems. From my exspeirence I think maf systems are more tuneable. I had a map system on my last car. I have never run a megasquirt, I hear they are good. I have run haltech and aem stand alones. Actually the last turbo ford we built we used a bullet maf and ran a holsett cummins turbo, Man was that car a sleeper and a kick in the a$$.

 

[Fred]

I have had alot of problems running speed density systems. I have good luck with map and maf systems.

Either you're confused, or I'm confused. One of us, anyway.

I've been operating that if you have a MAP sensor, you are using a speed density system.

How do you distinguish MAP from speed-density?



Fred

 

[Hellgate]

Should I go snag the quote from the \"other\" place where you completely slammed a guy for mentioning a turbo FZ6 not that long ago? When in Rome?

Did I??? I don't recall now, oh well... Oh I remember now, you are correct. The dude had no clue to begin with. Where as here we are genius'!!! :Flip:

 

[Hellgate]

Should I go snag the quote from the \"other\" place where you completely slammed a guy for mentioning a turbo FZ6 not that long ago? When in Rome?

Oh this isn't that bad, is it??? I wouldn't call is a complete slam.

"You could always just FZ1 the entire bike and be done with it. $9,800 new, $7,500 used, all problems solved...

If you do put a turbo on you'll will have to take the head off to install a thicker gasket to reduce your comperssion. I think timing is the least of your worries at this point.

Oh...and if you are concerned about a tiny thing like timing, you may want to reconsider the entire project.

Have a nice day."

 

[poorwboy]

Either you're confused, or I'm confused. One of us, anyway.

I've been operating that if you have a MAP sensor, you are using a speed density system.

How do you distinguish MAP from speed-density?



Fred

Yes you are right, I understood what I was trying to say.
But yes map and speed density are the same.

 

[Fred]

It's all clear now.

And Pete, honestly, you probably did that guy a favor.

When I started this project years ago, I wrote an email to RSR to get info about their old K75 turbo systems, and to see if I could outsource any of the work to them.

What I got back was the most politely worded "go **** yourself" letter I've ever gotten.

It motivated me to do it all myself.

That guy will either give up, or he'll go buy some books, read them, and then have a boatload of fun making his own system.

 

[Hellgate]

Heres one for a r6. You do not really need to lower compression, You just cant run as much boost with higher compression. I would say you could run 5-6 psi safely. Also you want highlift- low duration cams on a turbo motor. And yes more fuel and you need to retard timing.
Sorry the link. R1 / R6 Turbo Motorcycle and Performance Bike Tuning by Big CC Racing

WOW! These guys really do very nice work. thanks for the link. :cheer:

 

[urbanj]

i didnt even check that link. thats the company i found. so for their r1 kit, all they run is a FMU and upgraded fuel pump. which means there should be no fueling problems turboing a fz6.

 

[Hellgate]

ive seen super chargers but not a turbo, and after reading about it the thought of increasing the lower end rather then the top end would be better but since the turbo would be cheaper and eaiser i would say do it, but i dont kno y u would need to. o well do it take pics let us kno. i want to see.

heres the super charger.
Supercharging a Yamaha FZ6 - Motorcycle Thailand

Here's quote from the article that Someone08 references.

"So what does it take to give an Yamaha FZ6 more go than a Yamaha R1? The compression's been lowered from 12.2:1 to 10.2:1 to compensate for the increased boost, by using a thicker head gasket. Bikes don't like running anything more than with forced induction, they ping and detonate all over the place. But it still needs to run on super-unleaded, and I have to use an octane booster to take the fuel to 99 RON. Also, the standard FX6 injectors wouldn't flow enough fuel even flat out so this uses ones off a Suzuki GSX1400, and you obviously need a Power Commander to control the fuel. I've got an uprated clutch with stronger springs to deal with the extra power. But the rest of the engine's standard, crank, pistons and rods."

Now I am understanding the $10,000 price tab for kits better.

1) Turbo
2) Oil cooler
3) Cams
4) Gaskets
5) Custom exhuast system.
6) Power Commander
7) Dyno tuning
8) General labor
9) Fuel injectors
10) Air box fabrication

This article doesn't mention the amount of boost but I'm guessing it is fairly high due to the large reduction in the compression.

 

[Hellgate]

Everyone read this > TurboByGarrett.com - Tech Center

For you old dogs this may not be new news but it really lines the basics out.