Zealot
The Village Idiot
Alright. Thank you!
Alright. Thank you!
aclayonb
Junior Member
OP - if you are still getting numbness after the bar change...it may be a physical issue. I'm getting to be the king of shoulder surgery these days and I my right hand goes numb simply from not putting it down for an hour. A throttle rocker helps, as it allows you to relax your grip a bit. I also found that leaning forward a bit, bending at the elbow, and using my core to control my posture helps A LOT. It's a PITA, but learning to change your posture and mentally focusing on relaxing your shoulders helps a lot for long highway runs.
edit: Wow. Should have looked at the dates on these posts...
edit: Wow. Should have looked at the dates on these posts...
Zealot
The Village Idiot
We shade wearing skulls gotta stick together when it comes to any and all things necromancer related!
(referring to our thread necro, a la bringing it back from the dead)
Last edited:
buzzbomb
Resident Lurker
Updates...hmmm lets see...
I tried redoing the spark plug caps and zip tying them up, with new NGK Iridium plugs, gapped to 0.6mm from memory, and went over the exhaust bolts, loosened everything up, jiggled and retightened. Also I went over all the frame bolts and retorqued, but I am suspicious of the frame bolts on the sliders. I have heard of people having trouble with these stripping after they're taken off and tightened up repeatedly, so I torqued them to about 37 or 38ftpounds.
When I torqued them one of them made a click sound, and it still feels tight, but I think there may be some stretching/damage to the frame slider bolt. I snapped a footpeg bolt after a bit of retorquing, but I remember they were EXTREMELY tight since new, and I think someone overtorqued them initially. Luckily it was a clean snap and I could get the broken bolt out from the back.
I haven't been game to touch it, and the vibes have been unchanged.
Also the vibes always seem worse in summer than winter...on cold days it feels great, but on a warm to hot day the vibes are much worse.
I haven't been riding it recently as I've taken it off the road for a while, it needs a new front tyre, but you could say it's in the naughty corner!
Been eyeing off the new tech bikes Yamaha has been making like the MT07 and MT09, really nice to see them introducing different ideas, but alas my black raven FZ6 will be with me for a while yet!
What about seafoam? Is it worth trying that, on a bike with only 30,000km, or would it be a waste of time?
Thanks again for everyone's help. I've been a bit quiet lately...too much other stuff happening@!
LeeFZ
Junior Member
Grip Puppies is the way to go. I think it reduces about 20% vib.
I'd throw some cleaner in there. It wont hurt it, but you have to ride it for it to work...
Abstract but; in Au i think the CO values are directly accessible at gauge cluster. Take a peak and see what the offsets are. If there is huge desparity like >10 between the values. Pair them to the highest number and go for a spin. Report back....
Hint; C1 & C2 on mine are 0/0 but others have -15/+7 and other vales...
A compression test is not a bad idea either as it could indicate if a valve adjustment is due.
And this is 100% engine related and not chassis or speed related? Engine buzz would be all gears most/all speeds. Drive train or chassis would be speed dependent. I.e. tires, wheels, chain etc...
Abstract but; in Au i think the CO values are directly accessible at gauge cluster. Take a peak and see what the offsets are. If there is huge desparity like >10 between the values. Pair them to the highest number and go for a spin. Report back....
Hint; C1 & C2 on mine are 0/0 but others have -15/+7 and other vales...
A compression test is not a bad idea either as it could indicate if a valve adjustment is due.
And this is 100% engine related and not chassis or speed related? Engine buzz would be all gears most/all speeds. Drive train or chassis would be speed dependent. I.e. tires, wheels, chain etc...
seansi
Junior Member
Have you done a TB synch?
A lot of my vibration disappeared after doing it. Still vibry but that's because I have no bar ends. I ride it for about 1.30 h before my hands go numb
A lot of my vibration disappeared after doing it. Still vibry but that's because I have no bar ends. I ride it for about 1.30 h before my hands go numb
Hi, I've been lurking for a while and thought I'd get out of the shadows and say hello! I was a bit frustrated with the vibes and hard seat of my FZ6, and tried selling it at a bike shop in the city, but it didn't sell. So I'm thinking maybe I'm just meant to keep the bike.
The engine vibes have concerned me for a while now, and are noticeable more on hot days. Not sure if it's just the frame expanding, but I've torqued all the engine/frame bolts down to the correct torque. After spotting the spark plug cap thread I tried it, as well as a full service- oil/filter, coolant and brake fluid, and also I remoulded and added more foam to the seat.
I tried taking off #4 spark plug cap off the ht lead but found it a real pain. I checked the other leads and they all felt tight. I'm tempted to try again by taking out the battery and airbox. The new spark plugs have made a difference low down but it still vibey up high (7k upwards).
I still love the Fazer even though it's been 9 years since I bought it. It'd be nice to be able to nail the engine vibes. I'm pretty sure it's the leads and not the chain or wheel alignment. Has anyone modded the early model to have a coil over sparkplug design like the later r6s?
Anyway thanks to everyone esp FinalImpact, for all the informative threads! Cheers
WHAT OIL are you using and when was it changed last? I wouldn't bring this up but I dumped $30 USD of oil out after 1600 miles as the bike had weird vibrations, shifted notchy/clunky and may have been running warmer than usual. It was Mobil1 bike oil. 3 others have reported the same and dumped it also.
Try something DIFFERENT if that Oil resides in your engine. I have Zero complaints against Amsoil... Been running it since the mobil1 was dumped.
^^ It may explain your warm weather vibes!
buzzbomb
Resident Lurker
The last oil change was not long ago, I dumped the old stuff (Belray from memory) and poured in Silkolene Comp 4 15W-50, a heavier weight than the 10W40 that I normally use. The gearchange felt a bit better, but the vibes were still noticeable.
I can't remember an instance where the bike suddenly got vibey, it was a gradual thing, but it's frustrating trying to pinpoint it. The upper revs are the best part but it's spoilt by the vibes, to the point the mirrors get fuzzy.
buzzbomb
Resident Lurker
The CO values did seem to help with the vibes. Standard values were like -18 and -3, it felt worse when they were 0/0 so I went back to standard. I tried higher values but still with that same offset and it seemed to help, so I'll go back and try some different combinations.
There's a really smooth part of road near where I live, speeds are about 90km/h along this section, and I've pulled the clutch and let the revs drop to idle, and it's smooth as silk. I've revved the engine in the shed and the vibes come back, felt through the tank, bars and footpegs. So I'm pretty sure it's down to the engine.
One thing I've avoided checking is compressions, just to see what state the valves are in. I've always been pretty particular about regular oil and filter changes, but often changed oil brands, generally getting semi synth from Castrol, Belray and Shell.
I've always been a bit worried about a valve job, because it's a big job, but that might be what's needed...
Anyway I'll go over a few things again and try a bit of seafoam.
Thanks for your help
:cheer:
buzzbomb
Resident Lurker
Yep done several TB synchs over the years, with a Morgan Carbtune and before that I had a home made manometer, and they did seem to help a bit. Even trying the synch at idle and at about 4grand on the tacho.
I'll spend some time in the shed today and give everything a check over
seansi
Junior Member
Yep done several TB synchs over the years, with a Morgan Carbtune and before that I had a home made manometer, and they did seem to help a bit. Even trying the synch at idle and at about 4grand on the tacho.
I'll spend some time in the shed today and give everything a check over
I saw you mentioned sea foam. I've used it twice on my bike before storing it and just after I bought it to clean the internals. I didn't really notice a difference post use.
Make sure all important nuts are torqed to spec, handlebars, axle nuts, engine mounts, drive train etc. You've probably already done this but I thought it's worth a mention.
Does it get vibry at certain RPMs or does it being at a certain RPM and stay through the range?
Do you have bar ends?
How is your idle?
The CO values did seem to help with the vibes. Standard values were like -18 and -3, it felt worse when they were 0/0 so I went back to standard. I tried higher values but still with that same offset and it seemed to help, so I'll go back and try some different combinations.
There's a really smooth part of road near where I live, speeds are about 90km/h along this section, and I've pulled the clutch and let the revs drop to idle, and it's smooth as silk. I've revved the engine in the shed and the vibes come back, felt through the tank, bars and footpegs. So I'm pretty sure it's down to the engine.
One thing I've avoided checking is compressions, just to see what state the valves are in. I've always been pretty particular about regular oil and filter changes, but often changed oil brands, generally getting semi synth from Castrol, Belray and Shell.
I've always been a bit worried about a valve job, because it's a big job, but that might be what's needed...
Anyway I'll go over a few things again and try a bit of seafoam.
Thanks for your help
In terms of fuel trims, the creator likely entered those -18/-3 values but dang, that just seems screwy to fuel 1&4 so differently than 2&3. In my mind I have a hard time thinking it could ever run smooth. That is a fair amount of difference.
Just so we are one the same page, IMO, changing these values to anything near matching forces the user to do a TB sync. This could explain why it didn't really seam any better when matching them as it would create an issue for idle to 3k or so even if it helped the top end.
If this were mine to tackle, there are couple items left to do. Lets start with the tune, information, and maintenance if not resolved.
TUNE:
- Run the seafoam at least 150 miles.
- VERIFY there are NO vacuum leaks
- Set C1/C2 to say +2/0
- Sync TB to these CO values / Idle Speed to 1300, Vacuum 218mmHg // you could cheat and just set them all 1/2 to 3/4 turns out and test drive.
Done:
+ Plugs are newer and gapped below MAX limit
+ Cap wires are Trimmed and snug up tight (resist rotation)
Report back!
Information:
Valve timing being out/needing adjustment can induce some vibration. That said, taking a LONG wooden dowel or screwdriver and placing it against your ear and listen to the head area over each exhaust port. If you hear a Tap Tap Tap, that valve adjustment may not be a bad idea. The problem with a compression test is it can vary by crank times, battery state, and where the engine stops and starts based upon the LAST Cylinder building compression. It CAN SHOW, huge disparity - when things are really bad.
- From personal experience; mine had 3 exhaust valves needing adjustment well before 20,000 miles. Once addressed, the engine was smoother, quieter, and ever so slightly better throttle response. Its overall tone was more consistent and pleasant to the ear. Also, only the exhaust were off. The intakes were all in spec. That said, I can't say this had any impact on the vibes above 5K. If so, it was minimal.
Maintenance:
- Verify resistance of coil wires. i.e. primary to secondary coil wire, secondary to secondary pack 1 vs pack 2. Either remove Spark Plug Caps or remove the ceramic resistor in the cap to check them.
- Verify ceramic resistors in Spark Plug caps all read 10K ohms +/- 1k ohms.
- Valve adjust
- Loosen all engine mounting bolts and confirm all go through the center of their holes. A floor jack would be required. None of them should be grinding into the frame with tension when tightened. i.e don't hang the engine on the bolts. Support it, but don't lift chassis.
- loosen lower header mount and mid pipe (again).
That's what comes to mind. Also see if you can ride a friends FZ6 and compare.
buzzbomb
Resident Lurker
I've spent time going over the bike with a torque wrench, using the service manual for torque values, and was able to do most of them apart from the swingarm, as I don't have a socket big enough for that one, so I should look into that.
It idles ok and the low end is ok but the vibes start around 4000 up thru the rev range, and can be felt thru the tank, handlebars and footpegs. I've got standard bar ends on standard bars. It's all pretty standard.
I'll spend more time with it next weekend as I don't get much time during the week outside of work hours. Thanks for your help
buzzbomb
Resident Lurker
Yeah I'm not sure why there's such a disparity between the two CO values.
You'd think they'd be close, and I'm not sure how Yamaha would have tested it. Whether they rigged the engine up with a different exhaust header with O2 sensors in each of the 4 pipes and then tuned to suit CO emissions? But it's still weird having cyls 1-4 paired and 2-3.
I'll try again bringing the values back to 0,0, then maybe bring them up +5 at a time and do a throttle sync after. This is one thing I haven't done, I hadn't imagined they'd be linked but after thinking about it that could be the reason why zeroing the values didn't seem to help.
Next weekend I'll have a shot at synching the TBs and see if that helps.
I checked the resistance of the spark plug gaps earlier and they were all good, around 9 0r 10kOhms, but I didn't check the coil resistance. The sparkplugs are a new set of NGK CR9EIA plugs which I carefully gapped to 0.6mm, and made sure they were all firmly locked down on the spark plugs.
Anyway I better go for now. A huge Thankyou to you and everyone for all your help! PS- My daughters love your avatar of the pig in boots!
You have covered a lot of bases. All the Obvious stuff. I have played with the C1/C2 numbers for other reasons. From 0/0 Stock to 35/35 which nearly takes care of the throttle chop. So, those changes DO effect fueling. I also connected an oscilloscope to the two injection wires. At idle it was too hard to tell if there was a difference in injection cycle time. That said, it did mess up the idle.
Maybe they used a treadmill and software to do power-balance test but that makes no sense on an engine thats not broken in / rings fully seated.
Perhaps - just set them both at 10/10, screw the TB screws to bottom, then at 10/10 set them to 3/4 turn each and test drive. TB sync issues diminish as the throttle blades open. Path of least resistance you know.
If this doesn't effect it, gonna have to dig deeper....
Hang in there and we cross off things we know. Once you know what it isn't, that only leaves what it is....
Recap - you bought it NEW and its been this way all along? Is there a member in your area who you could trade bikes with and get another opinion?
If this is case, maybe your injectors are a poor match from the get go?? Injector balance test - possible? I've never pointed the finger at the injector for much (only after rust issues) - but its a possibility.
Glad the little one liked it! :thumbup:
buzzbomb
Resident Lurker
I remember when I first bought the bike brand new back in 2005 that it was really smooth, but over time the vibes have developed, maybe just in the last few years, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly. I think it's been a gradual thing.
I have been curious about air leaks, and took out the idle air bypass screws to inspect the O rings, but didn't dismantle the whole block. The rest of the vacuum lines look good. I even got creative and put together every socket extension I could find to tighten the throttle body clamps!
It's been a while since I've used injector cleaner, so maybe it's time to dose up the tank and see if that makes a difference.
Anyway it's midnight here so time for me to sign off. It feels like I've hijacked this thread... :spank: :ban:
^^^ Thread title is a solid connection to your issues. I'd say you're on OK!
Good to know the bike was OK once. That is EXACTLY what lead me down the spark plug cap thread. My bike was OK when I obtained it and changed over time. Most notable was a run of 350+ miles where I thought my @ss would burst into flames from the continued vibrations. It was the coil wires into the the plug caps. Then it did again about 2,000 miles later which lead to the zip tie treatment. So, far it hasn't returned.
As stated I took off a 0.25" of material and fanned out the strands in circle, screwed the cap on. Since then I've had the plugs out 3 times. Once for valve adjustment and all is well.
Key threads on this topic of vibration:
Vibration! A cure for bad vibrations, Spark Plug Caps!!
How to string align your rear wheel!!
Valve Clearance ADJUSTMENT
Pick one (thread) - Throttle Body Sync for idle to 3000 RPM vibes/smoothness
In the states I use Techron Fuel Treatment twice a year. Although I've missed a few doses of late.
Good to know the bike was OK once. That is EXACTLY what lead me down the spark plug cap thread. My bike was OK when I obtained it and changed over time. Most notable was a run of 350+ miles where I thought my @ss would burst into flames from the continued vibrations. It was the coil wires into the the plug caps. Then it did again about 2,000 miles later which lead to the zip tie treatment. So, far it hasn't returned.
As stated I took off a 0.25" of material and fanned out the strands in circle, screwed the cap on. Since then I've had the plugs out 3 times. Once for valve adjustment and all is well.
Key threads on this topic of vibration:
Vibration! A cure for bad vibrations, Spark Plug Caps!!
How to string align your rear wheel!!
Valve Clearance ADJUSTMENT
Pick one (thread) - Throttle Body Sync for idle to 3000 RPM vibes/smoothness
In the states I use Techron Fuel Treatment twice a year. Although I've missed a few doses of late.
buzzbomb
Resident Lurker
I've been a bit busy going through lots of posts, starting with the ones you linked, and found a heap of info on the throttle synch and CO adjustment threads you've contributed to, and I'm thinking of rebuilding my old home made manometer and vacuum gauge that I used to use. I've been using the Carbtune for the past couple of years but I think the manometer was more sensitive. It'll be interesting to compare then side by side, as you mentioned in one of your posts that the Carbtune is actually a flowmeter, not a vacuum gauge, and as such it's introducing air into the system which is normally a closed circuit.
Also I've noted that the Carbtune acts weirdly, as the revs are increased there's less pulsation, and there's more of a drag effect of the metal rods in the glass tubes. Rev the engine up slowly and it appears out of synch, but a quick rev then hold those revs at say 5000revs and they're dead even. So I'm thinking maybe it's time to go back to the manometer...
Time to do some studying and recording/testing!
One thing to add, tho I'd guess you know this already; the Sync screws control air volume only. So every time the CO is messed with, it impacts the idle AFR.
So, unless you have a lot of time, tiny changes to CO consume time.
A clean new thought; lets say mechanically the engine ( pump if you will) is equal output from all 4 cylinders. If true, and we set CO equal, and Sync equal, our vacuum at sync ports is pretty close +/-5cmHg.
^^ I did just that on mine and say at each 1/2 and 3/4 turns out (all 4) the vacuum was nearly spot on. Granted, there are too many variables to use this as a tool, but all things being equal, it should be pretty close.
Point: make the CO values match, count the turns out from bottom making sync screw turns out match and tell us how much difference you have in cmHg from hole to hole.
Variables are:
Injectors
Engine health/valves/compression
Ignition delivery
Sync air volume
Lastly are the two TBs matched? Is there any way someone messed with the blade offset between the two TB's??? It has a paint stripe. Can you tell if its been moved? This could cause your issues!
^^ I Doubt that happened but worth looking at...
FWIW: carbtune relies on vacuum pulses to keep those rods in motion. As the rpm climbs, the pulses occur closer together which IMO, it doesnt handle well. Just like applying steady vacuum. Each rod has stiction and a slightly different leak rate so they fall at different rates. In short it cant be calibrated using a fixed vacuum. I wrote and asked the guy.
I would suggest you T all four of the Carbtune hoses together and connect them to ONE sync hose. Verify they all report the same value at idle. Raise RPM and see that they remain matched. 4000 rpm is not as critical as the value at idle. So of its good at idle, leave it be.
Thats all i have for now...
So, unless you have a lot of time, tiny changes to CO consume time.
A clean new thought; lets say mechanically the engine ( pump if you will) is equal output from all 4 cylinders. If true, and we set CO equal, and Sync equal, our vacuum at sync ports is pretty close +/-5cmHg.
^^ I did just that on mine and say at each 1/2 and 3/4 turns out (all 4) the vacuum was nearly spot on. Granted, there are too many variables to use this as a tool, but all things being equal, it should be pretty close.
Point: make the CO values match, count the turns out from bottom making sync screw turns out match and tell us how much difference you have in cmHg from hole to hole.
Variables are:
Injectors
Engine health/valves/compression
Ignition delivery
Sync air volume
Lastly are the two TBs matched? Is there any way someone messed with the blade offset between the two TB's??? It has a paint stripe. Can you tell if its been moved? This could cause your issues!
^^ I Doubt that happened but worth looking at...
FWIW: carbtune relies on vacuum pulses to keep those rods in motion. As the rpm climbs, the pulses occur closer together which IMO, it doesnt handle well. Just like applying steady vacuum. Each rod has stiction and a slightly different leak rate so they fall at different rates. In short it cant be calibrated using a fixed vacuum. I wrote and asked the guy.
I would suggest you T all four of the Carbtune hoses together and connect them to ONE sync hose. Verify they all report the same value at idle. Raise RPM and see that they remain matched. 4000 rpm is not as critical as the value at idle. So of its good at idle, leave it be.
Thats all i have for now...
