What we have accomplished in Iraq

[formula154]

This is the first post of yours that I fully agree with on this subject. That does not mean to say that I do not respect your right to have an opinion. It will happen as you predict, there are no two ways about it unless a UN presence is maintained in Iraq. Civil war will ensue. Possible options may be a division of territories?
Going back to the UN sanction I was never sure whether there were enough votes?
This issue was cleverly clouded by our Governments spin and the medias inept reporting.
It is common knowledge, that Kofi Annan, the Secretary General of the United Nations, \"said I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN Charter. From our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal.\"
This makes the whole issue of the legality of the invasion even harder to understand. We also have to acknowledge that if the member countries of the UN thought it was legal they would have also joined the coalition. A member country who signs up to the UN is expected to act within its mandates and policies. The lack of clarity made it easier for countries to opt out.

I have really enjoyed and learned alot from this thread, apart from some of the smart remarks and name calling.

Cheers
Nelly

Unfortunately people take their own agendas to the UN. The UN is just another tool countries use to advance them selves. It doesn't function as a governing body that works together for the advancement of humanity. Countries like France and Russia were sneaking around doing business with the Iraqi's. They voted in ways that would be good for their own business. France and Russia (as well as others) are permanent members of the security council. Their relevance in the world stage is greatly decreased yet they remain permanent members with the power to veto any action. That veto is the only relevance either of them has in the world, as far as I am concerned.
I guess what I am saying is that the UN doesn't function as what it was established to be.

 

[formula154]

This is the first post of yours that I fully agree with on this subject. That does not mean to say that I do not respect your right to have an opinion. It will happen as you predict, there are no two ways about it unless a UN presence is maintained in Iraq. Civil war will ensue. Possible options may be a division of territories?
Going back to the UN sanction I was never sure whether there were enough votes?
This issue was cleverly clouded by our Governments spin and the medias inept reporting.
It is common knowledge, that Kofi Annan, the Secretary General of the United Nations, \"said I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN Charter. From our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal.\"
This makes the whole issue of the legality of the invasion even harder to understand. We also have to acknowledge that if the member countries of the UN thought it was legal they would have also joined the coalition. A member country who signs up to the UN is expected to act within its mandates and policies. The lack of clarity made it easier for countries to opt out.

I have really enjoyed and learned alot from this thread, apart from some of the smart remarks and name calling.

Cheers
Nelly

It is common knowledge, that Kofi Annan, the Secretary General of the United Nations, "said I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN Charter. From our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal."


After they fired scud missiles at coalition troops Kofi Annan said that it was a violation of UN mandates for them to have scuds. It was a violation for them to refuse to let the UN inspectors inspect. The UN was to gutless to enforce their own mandates. Hussein couldn't have cared less about what the UN said, Just like Iran couldn't care less. If the UN would have had guts enough to back their own mandates and bring some stability to the middle east the coalition wouldn't have had to. The UN is totally useless as far as security is concerned and it would suit me just fine if the US quit and threw them out of New York. The only thing they are good for is passing completely usless mandates.

 

[formula154]

This is the first post of yours that I fully agree with on this subject. That does not mean to say that I do not respect your right to have an opinion. It will happen as you predict, there are no two ways about it unless a UN presence is maintained in Iraq. Civil war will ensue. Possible options may be a division of territories?
Going back to the UN sanction I was never sure whether there were enough votes?
This issue was cleverly clouded by our Governments spin and the medias inept reporting.
It is common knowledge, that Kofi Annan, the Secretary General of the United Nations, \"said I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN Charter. From our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal.\"
This makes the whole issue of the legality of the invasion even harder to understand. We also have to acknowledge that if the member countries of the UN thought it was legal they would have also joined the coalition. A member country who signs up to the UN is expected to act within its mandates and policies. The lack of clarity made it easier for countries to opt out.

I have really enjoyed and learned alot from this thread, apart from some of the smart remarks and name calling.

Cheers
Nelly

It has been educational for me to ,due to looking things up to support my statements. One thing i said which turns out not to be true is that Sadam gassed the Kurds. The Kurds were probably gassed by the Iranians because the Iraqi's used a different kind of gass than the gas that killed the Kurds. How ever the Iraqi's did use mustard gas through out the war against Iran. Mustard gas is a weapon of mass destruction which is out lawed by the Geneva convention. Sadam still has a history of possesion and use of illeagle WMD and refusing to alow inspections which were ordered by the UN.

 

[wrightme43]

:ban:

Wrightme43, I've read the rules, can you tell me where I broke them?

I simply stated that I question the mans views on racism. I am guilty of stereotyping Formula154 as a gun loving war monger from the south, however I did not publicize it. If you find that offensive, you may want to consider banning the members who are name calling and using profanities to describe the politicians being discussed, these same members you LOL along side of. :eyebrow: Lets make sure we have equal enforcememnt of the rules for everyone.

I am a Canadian, and live in one of the most peaceful and ethnicly diverse countries in the world, and at no time did I make a racist remark. :don'tknow:

Dude you know what you did. You implied that he is a racist. I am not going to argue the rules with you. You just did it again in the third sentence. In this post. Why? Its uncalled for. Its intentionally rude. It is bad manners.

Now you are playing dumb about it. Take a skip on it.
You know exactly why I wrote what I did. You intentionally did it the first time then reitterated your point that Formula is a racist in your opinion, based on WHAT?

I have worked hard to prevent banning everyone I have banned. Most people get it right quick and stop.

 

[wrightme43]

As for the rules.

http://www.600riders.com/forum/underground-politics/11200-read-rules.html

Read rule number one.

KEEP IT FRIENDLY!!!!!


Calling a man a racist is not friendly. If you are having trouble with that one just stay out of this section of the forum.

 

[Nelly]

Unfortunately people take their own agendas to the UN. The UN is just another tool countries use to advance them selves. It doesn't function as a governing body that works together for the advancement of humanity. Countries like France and Russia were sneaking around doing business with the Iraqi's. They voted in ways that would be good for their own business. France and Russia (as well as others) are permanent members of the security council. Their relevance in the world stage is greatly decreased yet they remain permanent members with the power to veto any action. That veto is the only relevance either of them has in the world, as far as I am concerned.
I guess what I am saying is that the UN doesn't function as what it was established to be.

The UN is great when you read the contents of the box, yet when you open it you find the instructions are in a language you can't understand and there are bits missing.
I agree, that hidden agendas screw things up. Maybe its time to re-invent the UN or just have the security council?
Nelly

 

[abner]

Wrightme43, I respectfully suggest that the mud slinging started towards the bottom of the following post. Granted my rebutal was walking a fine line, but never did I cross it. Your point has been made and taken, but please take a step back and re-evaluate the situation and see where the licks are due. :spank:

What basis is Formula154 going off of to suggest that my knowlege is less than a fifth graders?

Be careful accusing me of calling Formula154 a racist, at no time did I do that. I did question him on his views. It is a play on words, no different than the play on words he is using.

((((((All you Yankee patriots should ask yourself... is the rest of the world wrong?))))))))))))))

Like I have said. It is extreemly easy for people like yourselves to do nothing at all and then years later say what should have been done. Of course it was self serving who said it wasn't. Toney Blair supported the information that was avalible that they had WMD. Hussain could have end speculation if he
had followed UN mandates for inspections. Posion gass is a WMD which he did use in the war with Iran.Defiance of the UN mandate was reason enough to attack. If no one thought he had WMD then why did the UN pass the mandate calling for inspections. Is that the rest of the world disagreeing about WMD. Hussain did fire a few scudd missles at the begining of the war. Posession of the scudd missles was a violation of the mandate. The UN didn't have guts enough to back their own mandates. Europen countries didn't have guts enough to back the restrictions they passed against Germany after WWI and the world ended up in WWII as a result. The whole rest of the world is right they should pass mandates and then do nothing when they are defied to show what a bunch of gutless do nothings they are. Maybe that is why they are so quick to criticize the US. They resent us not being gutless and full of empty talk like they are.


((((((( There have been arguements here that certain countries vetoed the UN sanctioning of the invasion. I would highly doubt that is even possible...)))))))


That statement shows that you know absolutly nothing that you are talking about.

veto power

Under Article 27 of the UN Charter, Security Council decisions on all substantive matters require the affirmative votes of nine members. A negative vote, or veto, by a permanent member prevents adoption of a proposal, even if it has received the required number of affirmative votes (9)


That is what I am talking about . People like your self that are so ignorant of the most simple basic pionts ,that the average 5 grader should know, mouthing off about and passing judgment on the US actions.

((((((((((((FLAME AWAY!!!))))))))))))
If I could think of anything to say that would be half as demeaning to you as you flaunting your ignorance on this public forum, I would.


:Flip: Look at me ever body I don't know nothin but I can shoot birds:Flip:

 

[Nelly]

It has been educational for me to ,due to looking things up to support my statements. One thing i said which turns out not to be true is that Sadam gassed the Kurds. Sadam still has a history of possession and use of illegal WMD and refusing to allow inspections which were ordered by the UN.

This is all true, unfortunately by the time any action was taken the evidence was destroyed and/or moved. This also fueled the global argument that it never existed in the first place. I know they had scuds, but I don't think that scuds are considered as WMD.
The worst thing for me is that our respective intelligence agencies (now there is a contradiction in terms lol) ended up with egg on their faces. This caused a ripple of damaging effect that essentially reflected on all of the coalition countries. The service men and women in theater have done a huge amount of work to try to rectify this.

On inspection the hard fact is we found jack squat.
The UN needs to look at themselves and think for a moment. What course of action should we have taken when our inspectors were refused access?

Nelly

PS just a thought (without research) straight off the cuff, Saddam was executed for crimes against humanity? Now you raise an interesting point that it may have been the Iranians who massacred the Kurds? This massacre was used against Saddam was it not?

 

[wrightme43]

Wrightme43, I respectfully suggest that the mud slinging started towards the bottom of the following post. Granted my rebutal was walking a fine line, but never did I cross it. Your point has been made and taken, but please take a step back and re-evaluate the situation and see where the licks are due. :spank:

What basis is Formula154 going off of to suggest that my knowlege is less than a fifth graders?

Be careful accusing me of calling Formula154 a racist, at no time did I do that. I did question him on his views. It is a play on words, no different than the play on words he is using.

Then just stop. I am done. I have played this freaking stupid game with a few other EX members of this forum.


I will not say another word about this.

Respect other members
Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. You have the right to disagree with that opinion. You do not have the right to be rude, vulgar, or disrespectful in expressing your opposition. Flaming will not be tolerated

I will also PM him. You are right in that. I should of noticed it as well. I didnt. This tit for tat crap doesnt fly, wont fly and will result in both of you being banned.

KEEP IT FRIENDLY. Its simple. Really really really simple.

This is it. Its done. I dont want to hear another word about it. I am not mad at you. I am trying to run a difficult place, the best I know how, with the time I have available.

 

[OneTrack]

I don’t think the people of
Yugoslavia wanted to be dominated and controlled by the Russians for 50 years. While the Russians were there, there was peace in Yugoslavia. When the Russians left the different ethnic groups that made up Yugoslavia started killing each other and just about destroyed the country.

That's absolutely incorrect.
Marshal Tito's Yugoslavia (although Communist) was NOT occupied or controlled by the Russians (or more correctly, the Soviet Union) as were other ComBloc countries in Eastern Europe after WW2. In fact, Yugoslavia openly challenged Stalin and the USSR on several occasions, leading to Yugoslavia's expulsion from the Communist Bloc. Yugoslavia was categorized as a "Non-Aligned Nation". It was Tito's death in 1980 that precipitated the eventual breakup of Yugoslavia a few years later....nothing to do with the Russians at all.

 

[formula154]

This is all true, unfortunately by the time any action was taken the evidence was destroyed and/or moved. This also fueled the global argument that it never existed in the first place. I know they had scuds, but I don't think that scuds are considered as WMD.
The worst thing for me is that our respective intelligence agencies (now there is a contradiction in terms lol) ended up with egg on their faces. This caused a ripple of damaging effect that essentially reflected on all of the coalition countries. The service men and women in theater have done a huge amount of work to try to rectify this.

On inspection the hard fact is we found jack squat.
The UN needs to look at themselves and think for a moment. What course of action should we have taken when our inspectors were refused access?

Nelly

PS just a thought (without research) straight off the cuff, Saddam was executed for crimes against humanity? Now you raise an interesting point that it may have been the Iranians who massacred the Kurds? This massacre was used against Saddam was it not?

I don't think he was actualy charged with the killing of all those Kurds that were gassed. I think he was charged with killing a hundred or so people other than those gassed.One big problem we had ,and still have, Is poor intelligence in that area of the world. Supposedly we had information from a reliable source that Suddam did have WMD and was working on nukes. The source turned out to be lying. Either that or the US government is lying about him. Scuds are not WMD but I think they were forbiden to have them by another UN resolution.

The execution of Saddam Hussein took place on December 30, 2006. He was sentenced to death by hanging, after being found guilty and convicted of crimes against humanity by the Iraqi Special Tribunal for the murder of 148 Iraqi Shi'ites in the town of Dujail in 1982, in retaliation for an assassination attempt against him.[1]

 

[formula154]

That's absolutely incorrect.
Marshal Tito's Yugoslavia (although Communist) was NOT occupied or controlled by the Russians (or more correctly, the Soviet Union) as were other ComBloc countries in Eastern Europe after WW2. In fact, Yugoslavia openly challenged Stalin and the USSR on several occasions, leading to Yugoslavia's expulsion from the Communist Bloc. Yugoslavia was categorized as a \"Non-Aligned Nation\". It was Tito's death in 1980 that precipitated the eventual breakup of Yugoslavia a few years later....nothing to do with the Russians at all.

OK that’s two things I have learned from this thread. I don't know how Tito managed to be kicked out of the communist block when Germans were shot for trying to escape and tanks were sent to the check republic when they didn't toe the line. I don't know how he kept the different ethnic groups at peace while he was alive but when he died the whole country went to hell. There was nothing but death and destruction. That is what there will be in Iraq if the US leaves with out some kind of stabilizing force or power. Like I said it's debatable if we should have gone to Iraq or not but we are there now and walking away would be the worst thing we could do for all concerned.

 

[wrightme43]

American Thinker: Iraq and Its Lessons

 

[wrightme43]

American Thinker: Iraq and Its Lessons, Part 2

 

[FancaR]

))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

 

[FancaR]

I don’t think the people of
Yugoslavia wanted to be dominated and controlled by the Russians for 50 years. While the Russians were there, there was peace in Yugoslavia. When the Russians left the different ethnic groups that made up Yugoslavia started killing each other and just about destroyed the country.

what??? then Yugoslavia to be controlled by the Russians? lol ))))))
Yugoslavia at all was not in the Warsaw contract ) what are you talking about? learn the after WWII history first ! )))

I not the cook, and I will not prove to cooks how to prepare nice food.
It is ridiculous. Silence - gold

 

[wrightme43]

I do know that Yugoslavia was its own seperate country, it had over 500,000 soldiers at the end of WWII/Great Patriotic War. It was if anything even more commited to the hardline socialist/communist line than the leadership of Russia.

See again though we are getting way way way way off track of the issue of this thread.

It is a thread to discuss what has been accomplished in Iraq. You have established that you feel all we did was kill people, steal oil, and overthrough a foreign government.

I feel like we have put a country that was being destroyed on a path to democracy, freedom, and economic prosperity and eliminated a link in terrorism.

Time will tell which of us is right or even if we are both wrong.


However you look at it, Iraq has held free elections, built a constition, the schools are full, the police no longer have rape rooms in the police stations, people are not being thrown off of roofs by the state, there is more power to more houses, more food, better books, better medicine, and alot less fear in that country.

I call it success, you disagree.



That is fine

 

[FancaR]

In Russia saying: don't go with your charter in another's monastery.
They lived centuries withnot democracy, and you come, has shown that such democracy and they must delighted right now?
How people lived in Iraq before? Well? or bad? How live now? I do not know, and you do not know to
. We were not there ! Not you not I.

In my TV say that before your intrusion there was no terrorism as now at your presence. For that now you have a cheap fuel. In your TV of cource tell all the contrary. I think that the truth in the middle.

 

[wrightme43]

See thats the thing.

In my tv is not my news.

I do know from reading from the people of Iraq how they lived before.
I do know from reading how things are going now.

Did you click on the first two links I provided in the first post and read those?
Go thru and read Mr. Yons writings. He is very fair. Where we screw up it is known, where we do right it is known.


Does the possibility exist that you are not getting all of the information either exist? LOL LOL

 

[FancaR]

You trust this article because it was written by your brother? Or the Daddy? On a fence written too.

Ok, It is infinite dispute, more favourable I will go in clubhouse, i willl adjust valves clearance, replace sensor TPS and oil seals on my front fork.



bye

PS
I am glad, that not all Yankees think that in the Second World War USA was at war with CCCP, and Hitler was the ally of the Soviet union ))