And this is why you should carry...

[ChevyFazer]

No, I'm serious, but it will never happen. Guns are just too accessible here in the US versus other countries. Yes, incidents like this happens in just about every country, but the frequency is far higher due to our constitutional right for everyone to be able to own one, well just about everyone.

We don't live in the wild west anymore, I don't know how we can apply every constitutional right correctly today with all the advancement in technology and how much our way of life has changed.

Here's an interesting thought, what if every person out in public were armed? Would this change the thinking of these sick individuals?

Everyone will have an opinion on the topic and strong one at that but I'm a firm believer in the fact that guns don't kill people. It's my opinion that things like this happen in this country more not because of ease of access to firearms but because of how we as a society, have become less caring about our communities and more more about our selves, things like this didn't happen 30 years ago when communities were tight nit and if you had a problem you were delt with vs wrote another prescription....

 

[chaskell27]

My own thoughts are that it doesn't matter if you outlaw guns or stop producing them. There has always and will always be a thing called the black market where that stuff will always be available. It just makes perfect sense that guns in the hands of upstanding citizens will deter the scumbags of the earth from using their weapons.

I agree 100% with your statement that we are not the Wild West anymore. We Aren't. We have more laws in place regarding firearms. You can't just go shoot somebody for beating you at a card game. There isn't the same disregard for firearm safety as there was back then. I believe that in today's society, citizens utilizing CCW can be a safe and effective way of combating crime.

Again just my .02 cents.

On a side note. We've been in this debate before on this forum and it was eventually shut down. Let's keep it clean and have a healthy debate. :thumbup:

 

[Larry Brickman]

If guns kill people, then spoons made Rossie O'Donnell fat.

 

[Fred]

From the article. "Herrera told KCBS that when the suspect apparently ran out of bullets he put the gun into his waistband and took out a knife before he was shot by police."

Here is another shooting where the shooter was not stopped by the police, but by the fact that he ran out of ammunition.

The moral of the story is, don't count on the cops to save you.

Frederic

 

[callmegandhi]

Too much water is over the dam to ban guns in the usa. It would be tantamount to reinstating prohibition. The culture of guns has changed. Now when someone doesn't get their way they pull a gun and shoot up their workplace and or their school. Pathetic how thin skinned this society has become.

 

[thieu]

The people how support carrying weapons have a basic problem. Most people will not wish to carry and therefore your anticipated "discouragement" of thieves and the insane (if only temporarily) will never happen. Not enough of the population will carry! Same idea with vaccines if you get enough people on board then the whole is immune but if you don't reach that tipping point you have nothing more than safe individuals but the group is not safe. Oh and on a side note - the insane, mentally unstable rarely give a crack about what they are doing or what will happen to them when they act.

Oh and history and statics bear it out - More Guns = More Gun Crimes.
You should not consider it odd that the country that has the most guns per capita also has the most gun murders per capita than any other country.

The nut of the whole thing is now that you have so many guns out there what to do? Taking the responsible users firearm away is probably not the solution by the same measure that more guns is - unless of course your going to make most people carry - i forget where in the USA you have an example of that

 

[ChevyFazer]

- i forget where in the USA you have an example of that

The city next to where I live- kennesaw ga, it you live within the city limits it's the law that you have to own a firearm. And you have some good points but I don't think its fair to directly relate gun crimes to the amount of guns but rather should be related to the population. The more people there are the more crazies there will be, pack that same amount of people in a smaller area then the crazies shine even more, add poverty to the mix now every goes crazy just trying to keep a roof over their head...

 

[iSteve]

So the people who think fine upstanding citizens should have the right to CCW. Well what happens like in this case when a person who was a fine upstanding citizen has a bad day and opens fire on others.

Who decides who is fine and upstanding?

Most of the people that go postal and start shooting everyone in site have no criminal record and are almost alway described as being quiet and a really good neighbor.

 

[Nick329]

Kennesaw, GA has an ordinance that requires residents to have a gun in their home (Felons excluded). For those who do not think having a gun in your home is not deterrent, read the below article.
If you still do not believe carrying/owning a gun deters crime, then do some research and see what has happened in countries that eventually banned guns and you will see that the opposite has occured (increase in crime).
By the way, California, Chicago, New York, and DC, just to name a few, have the most strict laws/bans in the country...just sayin'.



KENNESAW, Ga - Several Kennesaw officials attribute a drop in crime in the city over the past two decades to a law that requires residents to have a gun in the house.

In 1982, the Kennesaw City Council unanimously passed a law requiring heads of households to own at least one firearm with ammunition.

The ordinance states the gun law is needed to "protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants."

Then-councilman J.O. Stephenson said after the ordinance was passed, everyone "went crazy."

"People all over the country said there would be shootings in the street and violence in homes," he said. "Of course, that wasn't the case."

In fact, according to Stephenson, it caused the crime rate in the city to plunge.

Kennesaw Historical Society president Robert Jones said following the law's passage, the crime rate dropped 89 percent in the city, compared to the modest 10 percent drop statewide.

"It did drop after it was passed," he said. "After it initially dropped, it has stayed at the same low level for the past 16 years."

Mayor Leonard Church was not in office when the law was passed, but he said he is a staunch supporter of it.

"You can't argue with the fact that Kennesaw has the lowest crime rate of any city our size in the country," said Church, who owns a denture-making company in Kennesaw.

The author of the ordinance, local attorney Fred Bentley Sr., attributes at least some of the decrease in crime to the bill.

"I am definitely in favor of what we did," he said. "It may not be totally responsible for the decrease, [but] it is a part."

Although he is pleased with the outcome, Bentley said he was originally opposed to drafting the law.

"I didn't think it could be written in a constitutional fashion," he said. "Obviously, it was constitutional, because the American Civil Liberties Union challenged it in court and we won."

Jones said the ACLU challenged the law in a federal court just after it was passed. In response, the city added a clause adding conscientious objectors to the list of those exempt.

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Kennesaw Ga.

So what't the penalty if you do not have a loaded firearm in your house or apt? How does the city enforce it?

I'm sure the cops feel real comfortable responding to domestic disturbance calls knowing that there will be a firearm on site.

 

[Hellgate]

As a owner of multiple guns of a variety of calibers, and someone who has cared multi guns, and commanded company sized convoys, with large caliber machine guns in a combat site, and ordered Soldiers to fire; I can tell you for a fact the vast majority of Americans should not carry a firearm. They do not have the proper training, (CCL classes are a joke), nor supervision, and the lack good judgement in general. Look at you average Wal-Mart shopper, would you want them armed???

Remember, 80% of the population is as dumb as a stump...

 

[falcon6123]

As a owner of multiple guns of a variety of calibers, and someone who has cared multi guns, and commanded company sized convoys, with large caliber machine guns in a combat site, and ordered Soldiers to fire; I can tell you for a fact the vast majority of Americans should not carry a firearm. They do not have the proper training, (CCL classes are a joke), nor supervision, and the lack good judgement in general. Look at you average Wal-Mart shopper, would you want them armed???

Remember, 80% of the population is as dumb as a stump...

Oh, I completely agree on the CCW courses. They need to revamp all of those. Hell, Florida law says its ok for people with DD-214s with an honorable discharge is allowed to bypass the classes. And my experience in the Marines showed me that there are some people that get out that maybe shouldn't have touched a gun are now able to buy and carry one the same day.

 

[Nick329]

Kennesaw Ga.

So what't the penalty if you do not have a loaded firearm in your house or apt? How does the city enforce it?

I'm sure the cops feel real comfortable responding to domestic disturbance calls knowing that there will be a firearm on site.

According to the article, no one has ever been charged with violation of the ordinance. It is a deterrent to crime...if a criminal is going to commit a crime, he wants to commit that crime against a "weak" victim that is not going to challenge him. In most cases, if the the criminal thinks there is a chance of him getting shot and possibly killed, he is going to pick an easier target (somewhere other than Kennesaw). Hence the ordinance in Kennesaw...."every" house has a gun. Unless he knows for sure, he does not want to risk his life for some jewelry and a 42" plasma.

As far as domestic violence calls go, they are one of the highest risk calls to respond to. A house is full of weapons (guns, knives, bats, axes, hammers, chemicals, etc.) and that's where tactics and training come into play. If it's not a gun, it'll be something else.


Kennesaw Police Chief Dwaine Wilson said no one has ever been prosecuted under the ordinance.

Among those exempt are residents "who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine." Others exempt include the physically and mentally disabled, paupers and those convicted of a felony.

The law contains no clause addressing punishment for violating the law. If convicted, City Clerk Diane Coker said punishment would be determined by the general penalty clause of the Kennesaw Code Ordinance - probably a fine of about $100.

 

[wolfe1down]

As a owner of multiple guns of a variety of calibers, and someone who has cared multi guns, and commanded company sized convoys, with large caliber machine guns in a combat site, and ordered Soldiers to fire; I can tell you for a fact the vast majority of Americans should not carry a firearm. They do not have the proper training, (CCL classes are a joke), nor supervision, and the lack good judgement in general. Look at you average Wal-Mart shopper, would you want them armed???

Remember, 80% of the population is as dumb as a stump...

+1. Not everyone has the mental acumen to carry a firearm. If they have the acumen, they may not have the training. If they have the training they may not be in a position to intervene in a crime...ie what if multiple people attempted to neutralize the perpetrator of the crime in the OPs post? Would everyone hit the target (perpetrator)? How many round would it take to stop him? Would anyone miss? Hit a bystander? Hit another 'upstanding' citizen attempting to stop the crime, thinking they were the criminal?

I live in Canada, where the firearm laws are quite different than the U.S., but in my opinion, concealable firearms are best left in the hands of those with the training and safeguards in place to ethically (as determined by socially accepted values) use them...police, military, and regulated security.

Long guns are of course regulated differently as they are more commonly used in a tool-like fashion (hunting) and not so much in the commission of crime (at least here in Canada)'

Just my $0.02, YMMV.

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY S INFUSE using Tapatalk

 

[Nick329]

+1. Not everyone has the mental acumen to carry a firearm. If they have the acumen, they may not have the training. If they have the training they may not be in a position to intervene in a crime...ie what if multiple people attempted to neutralize the perpetrator of the crime in the OPs post? Would everyone hit the target (perpetrator)? How many round would it take to stop him? Would anyone miss? Hit a bystander? Hit another 'upstanding' citizen attempting to stop the crime, thinking they were the criminal?

I live in Canada, where the firearm laws are quite different than the U.S., but in my opinion, concealable firearms are best left in the hands of those with the training and safeguards in place to ethically (as determined by socially accepted values) use them...police, military, and regulated security.

Long guns are of course regulated differently as they are more commonly used in a tool-like fashion (hunting) and not so much in the commission of crime (at least here in Canada)'

Just my $0.02, YMMV.

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY S INFUSE using Tapatalk

There are always "what if's". As others have already mentioned, CCW permits are a joke. The whole process needs to be overhauled so that individuals seeking to carry get proper backgrounds/screening (similar to LEO), training, and recertification on a yearly basis. And by training, I mean fluid scenarios using FATS, simunitions, AND paper targets...not just a few rounds fired at a stationary paper "Bad Guy" target and they never fire the gun again.

 

[The Toecutter]

No, I'm serious, but it will never happen. Guns are just too accessible here in the US versus other countries. Yes, incidents like this happens in just about every country, but the frequency is far higher due to our constitutional right for everyone to be able to own one, well just about everyone.

We don't live in the wild west anymore, I don't know how we can apply every constitutional right correctly today with all the advancement in technology and how much our way of life has changed.

Here's an interesting thought, what if every person out in public were armed? Would this change the thinking of these sick individuals?

Tommy Lee Jones.......
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mx52S8ZkUg]No country for old men - Intro voice over - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Senior]

Here's and interesting view from a group from Wales called
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ83KXUloP8"]Goldie Looking Chain[/ame]

There's a great tag line that goes with this track
"The gun is the tool, the mind is the weapon"

 

[Smersh]

I am a strong proponent of gun ownership, BUT with better control and education. Statements like "just eliminate all the guns" or "eliminate/stop producing bullets" do not make sense to me. A gun is a relatively unsophisticated mechanical device, which can be created with relative ease even without having access to a machine shop - just look up "home-made" or "improvised" guns . Bullets? ok, maybe there we'll need some machining, but again, it's not impossible if you put your mind to it.

The "if we limit access to guns, there will be less crime" argument, doesn't hold water either, in my opinion. I grew up in Russia - private ownership of guns is pretty much prohibited. Somehow, some people end up owning Tokarevs, Kalashnikovs and a whole array of improvised guns. Since, by definition, criminals are not law-abiding, and possession of a gun is most likely to be a lesser infraction than robbery or assault, criminals planning an assault or robbery are not likely to be deterred by prospective increase in charges if they are caught, given that having a gun improves their chances. Therefore, by outlawing gun ownership we only "handicap" the potential victims. Ok, Russia is too stretch of a comparison? Let's look at the two arguably most "no-effing-way-we'll-issue-a-permit" (for non-US readers - gun control is regulated on state and sometimes locality level in US) cities: New York and Chicago. Anybody wants to argue that their outlawing carrying makes them safer?

At the same time, I am not really buying argument that if more people carried, Seung-Hui Cho would not have killed as many people. What would help is, if there was a person with a gun and good handgun training. The guy who shot the shooter in Hollywood was a former cop - which means he had training and knew what he was doing.

I got my permit, and I'll be the first one to say - class you need to take for it is a joke. If I compare the various tests I took (GMAT, PMP, CFA), to the CCL, CCL was the easiest - I don't think it's right that a permit to carry a device whose specific purpose is to gravely harm should be given out that easily.

What I think we need is better education about guns, better education on their use and its legality as well as stricter requirements to have a right to have one, but NOT making the guns inaccessible to citizens. I think everybody needs to read Massad Ayoob's book In The Gravest Extreme and be tested on it. I'm getting on my favorite spiel here, but we should not think that we know about guns from watching products of Hollywood. One American football player who shot himself in a foot comes to mind - if we follow what he claims to have happened - really? carrying a loaded gun tucked into a waistband without a holster? better yet, in a nightclub? Do you think he was afraid for his life that he felt necessary to have gun so readily available and ready to shoot, or just wanted to feel "gangsta"?

 

[wolfe1down]

There are always "what if's". As others have already mentioned, CCW permits are a joke. The whole process needs to be overhauled so that individuals seeking to carry get proper backgrounds/screening (similar to LEO), training, and recertification on a yearly basis. And by training, I mean fluid scenarios using FATS, simunitions, AND paper targets...not just a few rounds fired at a stationary paper "Bad Guy" target and they never fire the gun again.

I don't think that the type of training that you are citing can replace the YEARS of training that law enforcement (police, military, etc) get in order to legally apply force. Just shooting at targets in a scenario, or using a firearms training simulator, etc does not mentally prepare someone for the consequences of pulling the trigger. Not to mention that in the 'Vigilante Justice System' which seems to be consensus here, you eliminate or seriously curb the trained law enforcement personnel from being able to 'de-escalate' a potentially serious crime (ie. negotiating a perpetrator to disarm him/herself).

Don't get me wrong. I totally agree that sometimes police can take a long time getting to the scene of a crime that has been committed or is being committed (remember, I live in Canada; it's routine to have 3-4 man RCMP detachments in Northern Communites/Rural areas), but they have the training and experience in legal application of lethal force, just as the military does. Having the right to bear firearms, and having the right to enforce the most extreme application of force as detailed by law are two totally different things...

 

[Redback]

An armed society is a polite society. ;-)

:america:

HaHa that's why i felt like everyone was so nice when i was on holidays over there your all packing to your teeth hehe dam it what did i have bugger all.

i think your country is way far to intrenched to ban guns it would be near on impossible to get rid of them. even with say like a buy back scheme people would still have them stashed somewhere.

Here in Australia we have tough laws on gun control if you want a gun you must have a good reason ie farmer.and we have still had our fair share of nutters shooting everyone.

but as a society with guns not being so readily available we still manage to stab and bash our way around unfortunately violence is just becoming the norm. i suppose we can't stop the nutters in the world but we could educate people to be a bit more responsible with there weapons i hate when i read some young child has accidentally shot themselves or there brother /sister mate because daddy left their gun lying around