Aluminum Bars, Vibrations, what to do

[KB2WYL]

As always, thanks to both of ya.

I completely agree. And it's why I like asking, and this forum. There's stuff I know and am happy to share if/when asked, and there are things I don't, but want to. Sometimes the info is a quick "check this", and other times it's a bit much to just write down, but I learn what to look for (thanks Randy, I'll research the cylinder power balance test). A lot of this is stuff I wanted to do anyhow, but just thought the bike was running fine. Like I've said, steel bars still on and slightly rough idle, many a man would have hopped on and rode my "fine running FZ6". Obviously somewhere along the way, one of the changes set something off, or something just wore out of alignment, or? So yes, I enjoy getting it all down again, as I feel confident that within a week it will all be back together and all those things I "wanted to do at some point" will have been done/explored/understood.

You know, it's funny you mention the shop, Scott. I have never taken a vehicle of any kind to one, but I've known a lot of people that have, and have heard so many of those stories. Sometimes I tell myself that I'm just going to take my truck in, simply because I don't feel like ripping into it when I could be playing with something else, but I never do. I've been stumped by plenty of things, but I suppose being as young as I am (37) I have had it pretty easy as for half of my life there has been technology there to help. Yesterday I tore into our home furnace. Control board out, soldering iron, the whole 9 yards. Without being able to look it up, it would have taken me forever to manually trace everything and try to understand how it works, and I probably still would have been stuck not knowing sequences. I get it at work a lot "you can fix anything can't you", and funny thing is, I know nothing compared to so many guys out there (hint hint). But I know not to give up, and that if you really want to find an answer, you can. Most people would rather be told something that sounds easy, even if it also sounds expensive, like: "It's the flux capacitor and you can't fix it, but luckily I can", and hence why shops can charge so much for so little (most shops, not all, in fairness).

Alright, I have to go study. Welding class Midterm tomorrow. Thanks both of you again for this last round of info/opinion. I appreciate it. When gauges get here, now properly armed, Ill report back on this thread.

Loren

 

[KB2WYL]

It's always the things I'm really looking forward to receiving, that seem to get caught up. Went to check the tracking on the gauges today, and they hadn't shipped! I said to myself, well I guess it's a sign to try and shop locally, a good thing to do anyhow. Got off work at 4:30 and spent half hour calling every place. Literally the last one (maybe 12 calls) says: "yeah, we have them, 0-30 inHg, 10 or so in stock". Great, so I drive over to check them out....

Out of the 6 boxes I opened, 3 gauges were broken. I wasn't expecting much, but geez these were brand new. And the guy says: "yeah, in the last shipment we had a couple of broken ones too"?? It's a shame what manufacturing has come to, with all the business in USA willing to buy and re-sell all these cheap products. Again, not ALL businesses, just enough of them out there, and this was one. Plumbing supply store. The meters I found broken, were put right back on to the shelf!!

So, another set. Same as first, different store, in Texas...liquid filled, 2.5", 2% accuracy, etc etc.

I checked the motion-pro again, just for kicks, and to make sure I wasn't giving bad publicity to a good product. All levels within 8mm (as per factory spec), calibrate, apply more vacuum, and nope, goes from all even to looking like a bar graph...

So, looks like Monday. Bummer....

Loren

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I've gotten excellent packed packages and crappy ones (2 Cerwin Vega 10" stand up speakers, tall stand up speaker boxes-top of the line, shipped via UPS) that were beat up and got sent back twice. They were boxed great but you tell they were dropped easily from 4' plus, one box was SOAKED WITH WATER in the truck...???

The Carbtune, from across the pond, made it unscathed....

So what did you end up ordering or going to use for the sync?

 

[KB2WYL]

Ya shipping can be the pits. I just sold a tube amp I made, 120 lbs, all one chassis, a real beast. We trusted fed ex to pack hoping they would try to "take care of their own "....they dropped it (I don't know why they would even carry 120lb? Use a hand truck..,). Took me over a year to build, and now one channel has lifted a ground somewhere. Grrrr....

Ended up going with 2 1/2" oil filled gauges. Read a bunch of reviews to find ones that had some quality and accuracy, since I'm getting 4 and didn't really feel like ordering "extras". 0-30in. So, ya, should be soon.:..honestly I really, really wanted to do the valves while I've got the top of bike completely stripped, but I have a 500mi round trip on Apr 8th and couldn't guarantee she'd be done by then, work and all. Sync and others will get her close enough for now, then valves next time..:,

Loren

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

IMO, as stripped down as the bike is, and as deep as you have to go, I would knock out the valves now, (save another tear down), especially if their sloppy loose(better loose than too tight).

Do the forks or exhaust later, you can still do your trip... It'll take you longer to get shims(un-less you have em already) than to adjust them..

 

[KB2WYL]

I thought about it. But, honestly it's only an hour or two extra, putting all that back on and taking it off one more time. And, the radiator is still all attached and full right now, I'd like that all the way off for the valves. I will have to be back in there in a month or so anyhow (still before main riding season here) because I'll be checking the plugs, doing the sync again, putting in the better plugs (remember these are autolite copper core cr10e EQUIV.)....All because once she's all dialed in with my great new "feeler bars" I want to ride her in and get everything seated again. I get it, it probably doesn't make much, if any difference, for the valves. But, since I have to do those plug checks and I'll be wanting to sync again with the PCFC hooked back up, and CO back, and....since I have to go back in there for that stuff, I might as well give her at least one strong run before doing the valves. For all I know, there is some carbon (or ORANGE deposits from that damned booster) caked up in those ports. Opinions vary on the carbon buildup and how much it affects the measurements, but with such tight tolerances, it doesn't take much.

Thank you though, Scott. Believe me, the temptation is there to just do it and get it done! I didn't want to be tearing into it THIS time, let alone another time, but it's all stuff that needs to be done. And, it's the type of stuff that if I get it right, save a sync or oil change here and there I should be good for a couple of years.

I am still thinking about checking them at least. After 21k there's no way they're all in spec still, and so that has put me off even checking as I feel like all I will do is confirm what I already plan on doing.....But with no noticeable ticking, I doubt I'm doing too much damage waiting another 500 or so until after the trip??

Loren

 

[KB2WYL]

As for the Shims, what's my best bet? There's the 47 piece for 47$ (yes, 7.48mm) 1.2mm-3.5mm , same thing but over 140 pieces, for 80$. Sure, more, better value, but what have other's experiences been? I would think get the largest kit? Lots of bikes use shims, not like they go bad....

Thanks,

Loren

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I've got 24,000+ miles on mine but it's nice and quiet and runs like a top.

Most FZs don't need an adjustment however if you can hear yours, you'll likely be yanking cams.

I bought a "Hot Cams" shim kit, 3 shim sizes of each for when I do mine. Yes you can get individual shims usually at the shop,
but I'd rather have them right here, less running around (when my engines open). (And I'm a tool-a-holic)

Also, you can likely move one shim to another valve so it's not like your pitching all the old shims..


It's 365 riding season down here so when the bikes apart, no riding.....

What ever works for you.

Mine was down for two days waiting on a new clutch cable (mine frayed internally) and it was a long 2 days..
I just don't want more down time than necessary for my only bike.

 

[FinalImpact]

Reference is inbox PM.
Pictures here are none CA hose routing....
Agreed, none should leak or seap. The blue blocks are plastic. Make sure none are broken and none of the lines leak.

Verify it is connected like so....

From Final Impact Bike P O R N album...

 

[KB2WYL]

So....Thank you for that first of all. I did check all of them, everything seems to be fine. With the gauges hooked up, it is way easier to see what is going on. Here's what happens:

If I actually try for 8.6 inHg I can barely get it, on cylinder 1, seems like the rest I can't quite get there. And that's with the screw all the way in, no good. 3/4 a turn out reads more like 5 inHg, and is pretty darned close to even #1-4, if they are all 3/4 turn out. I didn't try to do anything at 4K yet, but revving up they all seem to respond the same...

Of course, and it makes sense, if I go for say 7 inHg all the way across, then all the screws are almost all the way in, and I have crap for idle control with idle screw.

If I want control with the idle screw, then I have to back them all out (somewhere around 1 turn out) and then I have control from about 600-1600. It was starting to get hot and my fan setup isn't the best so I stopped to write this. Is the 8.6 inHg of vacuum a sticking point? She seems to have less vibration already, but I feel like I'm still missing something?

Edit: I went back to it, now as warm as she gets, started at 160, and tried again. Seems like its a little challenging to balance between setting the screws and setting the idle, as the idle affects it so much (not just the vacuum level but it also affects how much change you get by adjusting air screws). Anyhow, I went back and forth adjusting idle so that I felt like I was getting better response from air screws. In the end got:

Each Cylinder at 7.1inHg
Held at 3.5k (It's getting late, my exhaust is loud), they all stay right with each other and get to 11.5inHg
My idle screw lets me drop down to an extremely lopey 500 or so, and raise up to just over 1500, and I set it back at 1300. All cylinders after the revving and checking the idle screw, still all showing 7.1inHg

It feels much smoother, idles better, and though the RPM isn't extremely stable at 3.5k, I wouldn't expect it to be with no load.

I think I'm pretty close....


Loren

 

[FinalImpact]

After de -cat, and putting O2 values back to stock I suspect the 8.6inHG is out of reach as it is no longer breathing as it did. Meaning to get the ##.# the idle is beyond 1350..... in your case, it can't get enough air without loosing control of sync screw/idle air adjustment.

IIRC I set my CO # back to zero where they were stock and used the FC to add/subtract fuel which put the AFR @12.5 and hit the 8.6inHg while at 1300 RPM....

JM2C but 8.6 is pretty rich. 10in Hg would likely be a good # but risk is going lean on hot days and dying when coming down from higher rpm....

I'm not sure if PC allows adjustment at 750 to 1500 rpm tho? If you get bored tonight, do nothing else but warm to temp and move the CO values -10/-10 from stock or current location and see if you hit the ##... thats just a guess btw. Could be -5 or -15 IDK!

That said, as long as it doesn't gas you out from being too rich it will likely run fine but could load up plugs if it idles too long esp on cold day w/cold start.

 

[Water Bear]

I doubt this suggestion will be much help, especially since you are buying local, but:

I tried HVMP bar ends and they didn't do much to decrease vibes on the stock bars. I installed Holeshot Touring bars with no bar ends and the vibes decreased dramatically. I know you don't want to change bars but the difference was huge, and might be worth considering.

 

[KB2WYL]

Thanks for the Bar recc. Who knows I may try it and I appreciate it.

Randy...ok I will try that. But what I also got to thinking is what about the idle screw. Seems that it also changes the amount of air available to all. I think I might try playing with that As well. All 3 idle, co, and FC which yes will allow leaning, low rpm range allows +- 20% 500rpm-4K. So, higher number is more lean, you were saying? Don't understand that as screwing air screws in decreased idle and raises vacuum, so I would think that's richer (because of the decreases idle part, and duh, I'm screwing in the air screw)??

also, yours. Because of where I want to get back to in the end. Where did you set your vacuum at once you had the trigger in, co values back higher, etc?

 

[FinalImpact]

As no load rpm increases, the vacuum **typically** increases too. As you richen, vacuum drops. As you lean it, the vacuum increases. Its just backwards from old school carbs as we used to change idle fueling. Here we are changing the idle air as the fueling is mostly locked out from change unless you tamper! Which, well, some of us have tampered!!! :spank:

Trigger - mines at 8.6inHg 12.5 afr at 1300. Lowering rpm to ~1150 does drop the Hg some. Not sure what the value is. Aside from improved throttle response, adv ign raises idle a tiny bit while helping fuel economy. So, although afr is 13.x above 3k vs 14.6 oem, the advance helps offset the added fuel used as combustion is more complete. Make sense?

 

[KB2WYL]

All makes sense except I guess I'm confused by the 4 air screws actual function. You said as I richen, vacuum drops. But when I'm screwing in the 4 air screws, in raises vacuum. Isn't screwing in lessening the air, or, richening? Or is it a function of the electronics, that when I let in less air, the bike automatically lets in even less less fuel, and makes it leaner?

Loren

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

You can open #1 to 1 full turn IF you run out of adjustment on the others.

As for the sea level #'s in the manual, I live at sea level (with a canal in my back yard-Gulf of Mexico) and CANNOT get the # yamaha has in the manual. Don't worry about it.

The sync is what's important..

 

[KB2WYL]

So yeah...I figured the balance is most important, but I was still trying to get close to the numbers. FWIW:

The CO adjustment had no effect on the vacuum. Tried adjusting it while running, no difference between -20 and +20. Tried shutting it off and back on, in case the numbers had to be "set" into the ECU this way. No difference.

Fuel controller hooked up - Yes, this gives me a little bit of adjustibility, but not much. What happens is that either too rich or too lean BOTH lessen vacuum. Found the happy medium with highest vacuum and of course this coincides with smoothest idle as well, as you're not loading up the motor or making it too lean while the ECU tries to compensate.

Still, I get to 7inHg. I can get up to 8 and above, but only way to do it is with air screws almost all the way in, giving no control to the idle screw, no good.

At 7inHg, they are all around 3/4, some little more, some little less.

I am also at sea level, which if I remember physics correctly would mean that there is more air pressure pushing into the motor, so the vacuum it's pulling would be less. right?


Loren

 

[FinalImpact]

Im maybe 250 ft off the deck (above sea level) and as you know the bike isn't stock.

I did compare the carbtune with two other devices and all three were within 5mmHg of each other (visual average of pulsing carbtune).

As stated earlier, the posted number is there for the service tech to normalize it using inexpensive equipment. The goal being it gives them a rough idea of the Air Fuel Ratio (AFR). To lean they stall. To rich they pollute and load up plugs.

Interesting to know the CO changes didnt impact vacuum but earlier I believe you stated you could hear the tone change???
Fueling at idle is mainly dependent on water temp and rpm. To a lesser extent air temperature...

 

[KB2WYL]

I did say earlier I could hear tone change. Especially going more rich. Til about 25-35, after that no changes even up to 140 or whatever the ridiculous number I tried was. But, going more lean, this is first I tried. Very hard to tell past 0 going negative...every few seconds you get a tiny change just from computer, you're to the point where it's so lean (because it's WIDE open in and out and now you're going negative from 0) that if there's any difference, I can't hear, and didn't see. Big positive MAY make a difference in vacuum, but up to 10 no dice and I was trying for lean not rich....

as the rpm start to drop below 1300, the vacuum starts to come up again. This must be the computer, you go up in vacuum by either going higher OR Lower than 1300 (approx, I was just using tach on bike). The exact spot keeps changing a little as the dynamic values in ECU change (plugs little loaded, unburnt fuel in exhaust cause no cats, air box temp, etc etc). I got them all to 8.6 exactly, and they STAY even at higher rpm, but to do it with the air screws being 3/4 out I had to drop idle to around 1100. Bit lopey but throttle response seems great! Going for a ride now, oh and yes that was hot idle so cold should be fine.

 

[KB2WYL]

Ok literally suited up and on my way out but i wanted to ask one more thing, before I don't and it's too late at night...For all I know, this has ALWAYS been going on, never really checked before. My homemade exhaust, where midpipe meets my homemade cans, isn't quite airtight. No noise, but not airtight I reckon, because I've been noticing a little water drip from it while doing this testing. Is there anything in particular that causes condensation in the pipes? I do live in 80% or higher humidity almost all the time, and it is often cold in the garage, then warms up by the time I'm working on it, so I figured that's it, as well as being a little rich, just like I have seen so often in older cars.

And no, it's not coolant, I haven't lost any and so far at least 60 min. cumulative of testing. Also, when i parked before I did the fluid after that irritating vibration trip, both resevoir and radiator were right where I had left them a year ago...

Loren