Aluminum Bars, Vibrations, what to do

[FinalImpact]

It is my understanding that a NB sensor is limited. Hence the need for WB sensors which that article didn't speak too or even mention. Good info tho! Thx!

Miscommunication? I ask this as you know the Piggyback hardware can not stand alone so it can't do the job of the ecu fueling.... and to my knowledge no one has invested in ignition modules for the fz as there would be little return on such a product.

From the pdf link you posted...

ALTERING MAPS USING SOFTWARE
The values in the map represent a percentage of fuel change over stock. A value of 10 in the map indicates at that throttle position and RPM range the vehicle will be 10% richer than stock. If the value is -10, then it would be 10% leaner than stock. You have the ability to fine tune your fuel curve by altering these values. The Control Center software allows a value of +250 to -100 in each cell.
- looks like you can but it gets into dangerous territory without a means to sniff the tail. Too lean and bye bye engine. Best you could hooe for hear is a detailed map of what the stock ecu is mapped at and use that as a safety net. I always ment to put a zero map into mine and just record what the oem ecu is really doing. From the maps I've made I see it plays on both sides of the fence from 4k to13k going rich and lean then switching back.

 

[KB2WYL]

I think I just worded it incorrectly. Yes, I understand about the piggyback and no, no one has invested in the ignition module, for the FZ..

There was another part of the Wiki on wideband, and then one more on narrow band resistive (opposed to voltage output), I just didn't post them up

Yeah, I thought it was interesting as well. Knowing what a small amount of change there is, even brand new, makes me think about how that 10 year old sensor is doing, especially in the humidity around here. From the article, and other things I have read, probably still fairly accurate, but slower. That could really cause some issues. When you look at any map, though there may be "areas" of high or low values, you can go from +7 to -8 by only changing 500RPM or 10% throttle...These things happen so fast during acceleration, that I'm sure it's hard for the ECU to keep up if the values it's receiving back from O2 are on a bit of a lag. New narrow O2 sensors are cheap, I wonder if it would really be a noticeable difference?

Loren

 

[FinalImpact]

Something to keep in mind is that the o2 sensor implementation is primarily for steady state cruise and that is where it runs closed loop. If you yank the throttle open, its fueling at that split second is based upon multiple look up tables or maps that have all the data for rpm, tps position & rate of opening, both temps, vacuum, gear selection, ect... from these tables the microcontroller spews out fueling and ignition for those conditions at that moment. It has nothing to do with o2 readings because like you said there is too much lag and to fuel at rate needed to accelerate well, that o2 sesnor will see a quick rich period and then fall back to o2 sensor data once the load has stabilized.

An example is a slow roll on of the throttle versus a swift crack in one condition enrichment is minimal. The other, its going nuts fueling to stay ahead of the demand or else the engine would fall on its face and stumble.

For the most part the implementation of these controllers on these bikes are a joke as they don't look at the load or the temperature. Here is a major grey area has we have no idea how they implemented this function. They let the oem handle it, add to, subtract from it, who knows... my friends Brutale has an ecu and software that lets you jack with everything. Its screen after screen of possibilities. The ecu and software is nearly the cost of our bike! lol

Behind the scenes are rate of TPS opening which in the case Bazzaz (BZ) is most likely relying on the OEM to enrichin when a quick right wrist twists it. What I am saying is they are only scratching the surface of what should be there as an option to tweak but these options would overwhelm most....

Read up on cage info regarding short and long term fuel trims.

 

[KB2WYL]

Randy, I am researching that, and I will reply. You end up posting things, some I dont know, some I do, some I thought I did...reading through it and then researching is good. Although I'm learning a lot more about it, I was aware of the implementation limits. This is why I haven't invested in one yet. I should, as when doing even simple mods something that helps keep engine health is better than not keeping it, no matter how far you are from what "could" be done in an ideal situation. And, it's also why I continue to use the PCFC. No matter the ECU trying to overcome, or it's limited range of operation, AFR changes when you introduce more air, faster, mean you need more fuel, period. Not all you need, but you definitely need it.

One of the nice features of the PCFC is the "Acceleration Pump"...did you see that in the manual? Anyway, since it monitors TPS, you can set the option ON and decide how long of a window and how much throttle change in that window to add a quick "boost" of fuel. Since at that point, the ECU is looking into it's maps, whatever it is coming up with is added to. I have it to something like a delta of 40% within 40 revolutions. Again, I agree, I'm sure the actual process is quite flawed, but I'm sure it adds some fuel.


Well, ride today, far less vibrations. Grommets took away better than 50%, especially the lower frequency ones. I made some bar ends today in Machine Shop. I know, aluminum bars... And by the time I actually complete them, I might have a new 2 Bros system anyhow, and not even need them.... They were good practice on the lathe, and while you can always buy or make lightweight caps, making heavy steel bar weights like this takes a little time/material.


The ends of the bar weights. I'll finish them, and have holes all the way through, matching counterbores with a black hex head bolt (or silver, if I paint these black)

Taa daa...nothing fancy, just some scraps laying around in the pile at school. I was practicing with the DMU CNC lathes.

First pic looks off, still needing the bores, but you can see here I got them fairly well matched. I'll polish them, or I might do a knurled surface up to the chamfer. Going to slice the inside twice at 90 degrees after tapping, so that when a bolt is screwed in they expand and hold. Or, if they do work really well in testing, just tap and die them and the bars.

So here's the gauge setup. Quick and dirty ha ha, but seriously, worked absolutely fine. Liquid filled gauges, and my tiny restrictors = no flutter. Bet you wouldn't guess that's a piece of 100year old mahogany

Once I realized it was the exhaust still leaving some vibes, and had to take a few things off again, I decided to finally get to welding the 4 and 5mm hex wrenches to sockets. Been meaning to do that forever...especially for the TB's, but also nice for rear end removal.

You've seen the pics of my exhaust system, so here is AFTER. I loosened everything (including mid-pipe and it's bracket), elongated a couple holes (L bracket) and got it all back together where it sat free and clear in the right spot. No more load on biscuits.

The grommets I'm using with the stock washers. Using the grommets like washers, but hey it works if things are in the right place.

One on top, one on bottom, and hole elongated enough that there is NO direct contact between bracket and sub-frame.

Also on the GIVI mounts, since they bolt on to the bottom bracket, rubber grommets between them and the bracket. Just pretend you can't see how dirty the bike is. Haven't had a free, nice day, since the whole vibration/ride through the mountains in the rain and mud.

Well, that's it. It just so happened that I sold one of my amplifiers that I built, yesterday. For a while I have been looking at a 2 Bros exhaust system I found, and now a pair is on the way. With the way they do the tail tidy, I can add something solid at the top, and the GIVI mounts will hold it so it's not flopping in the breeze like Randy found with his. We'll see if the aluminum bars still vibrate then Blah,. Thanks guys,

Loren

 

[FinalImpact]

I made this from 0.125" aluminum...
Still needs powder coated but it hasn't been a priority!

The hole in the center is for a rod that will go up under the seat adding stability.

 

[KB2WYL]

Damn good idea with the rod...maybe I'll do that with the 2Bro one. See for me I think I can use the one they send with it and their lights. The brackets for the GIVI, once secured, will hold it nice and tight. At least that's my thought on it so far...

 

[KB2WYL]

Well, some opinions? So remember I said I had put in the (CR10e)s, but had used cheap autolite equivalents. Well, tomorrow the 2Bros will be here, and I was wondering...although yes of course it will be slightly different, the flow of the 2 Bros and my homemade is probably pretty darned close..I.e. wide open. So I thought while I had a wrench in my hand (ok that wrench, there's always one in hand) that maybe I'd check the plugs. Since putting it back together with the grommets I have advanced the timing again (though only 3 degrees), and I have been running my mediocre FC. Since the exhaust won't change much, and the timing + fuel are set the way I plan on keeping them for a while, I thought it's probably a good idea. At least 50 miles right now on this setup, the way I usually ride, and pure 89 gas, should be enough to get a glimpse into how she's doing internally. And yes, new plugs ready, no reused crush washers

Loren

 

[FinalImpact]

After all that, how'd ya end up with two bro cans? I ran the PX1 tips in for years but found the stupid dear would bong into road trying to kill me. With them out, they turn back and well cage drivers do notice I exist! Although loud IMO the those open V2 hogs are still louder.

As for plugs, you run out of time or what did you see?
And the bracket support, 0.90" SS welding rod works great.

 

[KB2WYL]

I had been looking at a pair of the 2Bros for a long time. It was always my plan to put them (or the LV Evo) on there eventually, I just thought I'd run my home built for a while. When I originally built I even thought *maybe* I would just keep them!...but with the vibes...And I really like these bars! It's a long story with PayPal and a vacuum tube amplifier I built, but bottom line about a week back some $$ came my way that I had written off as gone, so, I got them...

Besides, learned a ton about exhaust and exhaust welding. I (we?) can find someone out there running stock or steel bars, and gift them the homemade ones. Bet that would make someone's day ;-).

No, didn't run out of time, I was pretty much just updating the thread. Saying that I was going to pull those plugs. 50 miles should be good to see what the conditions are. Besides, those ones were a buck each, and I have NGK sitting here.

The cans taken care of, bars I like, the only thing major left that I really want to do is a good FC (or flash), but both are out of budget for now...

What did we scare Scott off? Seems like the two of you were the only ones responding in this thread, now down to just you Randy Blah

Oh, and that's hilarious...I had some .125 here that I was already thinking of for the rod...ha!

 

[FinalImpact]

Same thing applies to these cans. Get everything suspended such that there is no tension on the mounting hardware. In this state the rubber can do its work to isolate components and reduce vibes from part to part.

Enjoy!!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Naw, ya didn't scare me off..

I'm NOT getting e-mail notifications of updated posts...

There's NO place for me to even BOLD anything on this page (for some reason)-which is new.

If I don't see another username (yours or FI's) on the thread, I gather there's nothing new and go to the next.


I wish I could get this fixed as it's getting worse... Cliff did a re-set to no avail...

Currently, I have to simply go the forum and look at threads I'm participating in. I JUST saw all yours new posts.


This really sucks... PM me if you need to get a hold of me

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I made this from 0.125" aluminum...
Still needs powder coated but it hasn't been a priority!

The hole in the center is for a rod that will go up under the seat adding stability.

Looks like some cracking on those corners where it bends... Might want to drill and weld em up before too long..

 

[KB2WYL]

Agreed. That's one of the things I gained from this. Yeah, I knew before that exhausts often are hung or otherwise isolated, but from now on it will be something I always make sure of. When I had it apart for the grommets, I hung the exhaust temporarily (I.e. Not touching the frame even with rubber) and the vibrations were gone. No way for me to make it lighter, it is what it is. Less than half weight 2Bros, and different exhaust tone, should solve this resonance issue. And yeah, it'll be isolated as well as it can possibly be to boot.

Loren

 

[FinalImpact]

You might get a kick out of this....
A Yamaha ECU video. Fueling....
https://youtu.be/fujeAFAjb4A

Apparently reading has schooled me well! lol

 

[KB2WYL]

Well, that's weird.....I never stopped getting notifications, I thought....I know when I get one, I have to visit before I will get another, OK...But earlier I got one, visited and saw Randy's post...then nothing...

Just now, at 10:00 at night, I get one. Get on here and there's a post from you Scott, from this morning, and then another one from you...huh!

Well, hopefully it was just a quirk on my end...And yeah, I figured something was awry on your end

Exhaust was supposed to be here today. Then it wasn't, and I called, and they assured me they had just talked to the driver (They = Golden State Overnight, GSO). Oh, we just talked to him, we're so sorry, but it will Definitely be there within 20 minutes. Yeah, right...And of course tracking still says "on vehicle for delivery"....and also of course, this was the only night I had time to work until late next week....

I have to sign for it, and tomorrow I will not be here because of school. This is the 5th thing mail related in 2 weeks!! Twice with the gauges that were "in stock", or not. Once with the FZ6R trigger wheel that I found out today was "lost by USPS". Handlebars I was going to check out, were also "in stock"....And now the Exhaust, that's not here because THEY decided to pack up for the night without delivering it! Geez this is starting to tick me off....I was looking forward to riding to Santa Rosa (about 4.5 hours along coast, nice!) this weekend, because I very rarely get the chance to take multiple day rides. Oh wait, I can't do that anyway because it's going to rain here, again! Blah

Hey Randy what gives, I just spent 10 minutes to watch a video of stuff I already knew from you! Ha ha, naw thanks, good video. Now we just need to find V2 where they get into specifics about the FZ6....Ha!

Loren

 

[FinalImpact]

Oh you are welcome! Let me *fuel your frustration* a little more with this..... and true, nothing I didn't know other than Yamaha spread the love to a pretty big audience vehicle wise.... That said it is good to know our education here goes beyond the FZ....

Yamaha fuel injector testing...
Yamaha fuel injector testing

 

[KB2WYL]

Thanks again. I had watched a little of that one as well last night, good info there. Actually, that reminds me of something I wanted to ask you guys. When I was adjusting the CO back to stock for testing the vibes, I went into Diag mode. D 01 is TPS. FSM states 15-17 and 97-100. It appears I am not missing any steps, I can count every single digit from 16 where it starts and up, but I max out at 94. I just noticed it again this morning. Leaving for school now, but I'll be back afternoon and have a min or two....how concerning is that? Seems like it has probably just shifted around a bit and needs adjustment, yes? While I'm doing this exhaust I want to do all of these tests and get it out of the way for riding season, so starting with this TPS....

Loren

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I'm getting updates now..

I just can't "bold" anything, the option is gone... I'm working with Dennis on it..

 

[KB2WYL]

Well glad you got it fixed...What's your opinion on the TPS, did you see my last post? I got lucky and school was short today so I have a couple hours. I'm going to throw the exhaust on, and I may check the plugs too, but just to be safe I am going to go over sensors as well. First sensor diagnostic, TPS, supposed to be between 14-16 at closed and 97-100 at open. I'm at 16 and 94.

I couldn't find info anywhere on just how far out of spec is just how harmful...But seems to me that 94 is unacceptable, as that's the entire WOT range (97-100, 3) lower than the low end of spec (97-94, 3)

Thanks,

Loren

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Well glad you got it fixed...What's your opinion on the TPS, did you see my last post? I got lucky and school was short today so I have a couple hours. I'm going to throw the exhaust on, and I may check the plugs too, but just to be safe I am going to go over sensors as well. First sensor diagnostic, TPS, supposed to be between 14-16 at closed and 97-100 at open. I'm at 16 and 94.

I couldn't find info anywhere on just how far out of spec is just how harmful...But seems to me that 94 is unacceptable, as that's the entire WOT range (97-100, 3) lower than the low end of spec (97-94, 3)

Thanks,

Loren

You can put the top end of spec's above 100, I wouldn't go lower.

My old FJR was lean (with a NOTICEABLE LEAN SURGE AT 3K) on the lower end from the factory. Yamaha bumped it up to about 103 .(had an issue, the TPS was NOT the problem-that's another story).

They never messed with the CO #'s, I should of had them do it for the surge.


But 100-103 is fine... *** You want more fueling @ WOT (thus the higher #)***, than less, (say your 97)


(you probably already know) but the TPS is simply telling the ECU the throttle / butterfly position.

IE 97 tells the puter your not quite at WOT (even thou you REALLY ARE WITH THAT setting)