Battery Issues

[Erci]

NOTE: A new battery usually comes 80% charged and NEEDS TO BE FULLY CHARGED (on a tender) before being put into use. It will still work without the charge but the life of the battery WILL BE LESSENED....

Interesting. Not really completely applicable, but I just replaced my OEM FZ1 battery with Shorai (Lithium) and read all of their directions and FAQ.

"Shorai LFX batteries are pre-charged to approximately 90%
of capacity. Therefore it is not required – nor generally
recommended – that the batteries be charged before use in
your vehicle."

Q. Should I use a battery tender?
A.The short answer is "only if you really need to". Most powersports enthusiasts have gotten used to hooking up a tender to their lead-acid batteries, all the time. Shorai LFX have much slower self-discharge than the best lead acid do (1/6 to 1/7, on average), they do not sulfate as capacity drops, and they are the ultimate "deep cycle" battery, which means that they can still crank your vehicle even if the remaining capacity is quite low. Therefore most riders will not need to use a tender at all. Even a charger or tender uses energy you have to pay for, and there is always the possibility that a charger or tender can fail in some way, so if not really needed the best practice is to not use one.

A fully charged LFX can sit for a year or more and still retain adequate starting capacity, without damaging the battery. As such, any vehicle which has no current flowing when the key is OFF should never need a tender. At most it should be charged every 6 to 12 months, depending on the average storage temperature (cool storage is much better for any battery). Many older vehicles and most dirtbike/atv fall into this category.
Newer vehicles may have a significant draw even when the key is OFF, to maintain clocks and computers, etc. In this case we expect that a few hours of riding per month will be all that is needed to avoid tending. If you know that you will go a number of weeks or months without riding, you can either attach a tender, or disconnect the negative cable from the battery. In any case, during storage you may use the voltage chart above and an accurate voltmeter, and consider recharging when the battery is around the 50% capacity remaining mark, or above.

 

[Motogiro]

Not to start a big debate; I have friends who use tenders and they replace their battery every three years while I don't and mine seem to go 5 to six years. Autos - 8 years or more. Granted I make an effort to never leave them in a state of decay and I can't say my friends did that. so - JUST SAYIN. . .

IMO - drastically changing the cells chemical make up by draining them occasionally and then fully and completely charging them drastically extends their life. Yes, we have all this modern technology and yes it maintains it at peak but IMO (TOOMA), when their batteries do see drastic change they die (like something left on) and do not recover.

Take it with a grain of salt but when a battery is utilized within its range of operation and not just sitting at float charge they appear maybe potentially live longer. . .

I agree with what you're saying and also believe the life of the battery is extended by it's use. That use is in an environment designed to use the battery for a short period of starting the vehicle and then replenishing and maintaining within the design of the battery by the vehicle charging system.

Car batteries have it a little easier because they have higher wattage charging systems to maintain batteries even at idle as apposed to a bike that can be sitting at idle with very little or no charge. Bikes by design seem to have minimal charging because they keep weigh tand heat to minimum and horsepower at a premium.

This doesn't negate the advantage of a tender when a battery will be left for longer periods with no attendance. I've only ever had a quality tender and have not had any experience with cheaper ones that may not do cycle maintenance routine or use logic processing to control charge. I guess you could take what you would consider a low current trickle charger that does not regulate voltage and instead uses internal battery resistance as the load and call it a tender. By today's standards that is not a tender and unfortunately for us as consumers we can be sold things under different names that leave us in the dark.

 

[Motogiro]

Interesting. Not really completely applicable, but I just replaced my OEM FZ1 battery with Shorai (Lithium) and read all of their directions and FAQ.

"Shorai LFX batteries are pre-charged to approximately 90%
of capacity. Therefore it is not required – nor generally
recommended – that the batteries be charged before use in
your vehicle."

Q. Should I use a battery tender?
A.The short answer is "only if you really need to". Most powersports enthusiasts have gotten used to hooking up a tender to their lead-acid batteries, all the time. Shorai LFX have much slower self-discharge than the best lead acid do (1/6 to 1/7, on average), they do not sulfate as capacity drops, and they are the ultimate "deep cycle" battery, which means that they can still crank your vehicle even if the remaining capacity is quite low. Therefore most riders will not need to use a tender at all. Even a charger or tender uses energy you have to pay for, and there is always the possibility that a charger or tender can fail in some way, so if not really needed the best practice is to not use one.

A fully charged LFX can sit for a year or more and still retain adequate starting capacity, without damaging the battery. As such, any vehicle which has no current flowing when the key is OFF should never need a tender. At most it should be charged every 6 to 12 months, depending on the average storage temperature (cool storage is much better for any battery). Many older vehicles and most dirtbike/atv fall into this category.
Newer vehicles may have a significant draw even when the key is OFF, to maintain clocks and computers, etc. In this case we expect that a few hours of riding per month will be all that is needed to avoid tending. If you know that you will go a number of weeks or months without riding, you can either attach a tender, or disconnect the negative cable from the battery. In any case, during storage you may use the voltage chart above and an accurate voltmeter, and consider recharging when the battery is around the 50% capacity remaining mark, or above.

I really like these batteries and think they'll become an industry standard with motorcycles. They'll maintain a starting charge 2 to 4 times longer the lead acid batteries that sit with out a tender. They are super light, supposed to be eco friendly. Lifepo is the way to go! Crap I hope they don't steal my new saying! you watch..... you heard it first here!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Interesting. Not really completely applicable, but I just replaced my OEM FZ1 battery with Shorai (Lithium) and read all of their directions and FAQ.

"Shorai LFX batteries are pre-charged to approximately 90%
of capacity. Therefore it is not required – nor generally
recommended – that the batteries be charged before use in
your vehicle."

Q. Should I use a battery tender?
A.The short answer is "only if you really need to". Most powersports enthusiasts have gotten used to hooking up a tender to their lead-acid batteries, all the time. Shorai LFX have much slower self-discharge than the best lead acid do (1/6 to 1/7, on average), they do not sulfate as capacity drops, and they are the ultimate "deep cycle" battery, which means that they can still crank your vehicle even if the remaining capacity is quite low. Therefore most riders will not need to use a tender at all. Even a charger or tender uses energy you have to pay for, and there is always the possibility that a charger or tender can fail in some way, so if not really needed the best practice is to not use one.

A fully charged LFX can sit for a year or more and still retain adequate starting capacity, without damaging the battery. As such, any vehicle which has no current flowing when the key is OFF should never need a tender. At most it should be charged every 6 to 12 months, depending on the average storage temperature (cool storage is much better for any battery). Many older vehicles and most dirtbike/atv fall into this category.
Newer vehicles may have a significant draw even when the key is OFF, to maintain clocks and computers, etc. In this case we expect that a few hours of riding per month will be all that is needed to avoid tending. If you know that you will go a number of weeks or months without riding, you can either attach a tender, or disconnect the negative cable from the battery. In any case, during storage you may use the voltage chart above and an accurate voltmeter, and consider recharging when the battery is around the 50% capacity remaining mark, or above.

I was referring to the standard AGM batteries/wet batteries most bikes have. Guess I should have clarified it.....

I know the Shorai batteries use a different charger and are preferred NOT TO BE CHARGED. They are considerably smaller in size,much lighter, more powerful and considerably MORE EXPENSIVE. They had some issues with their terminals being manufactured too thin (that was maybe a year+ ago).

In really cold wether, the lithium batteries will barely crank an engine over immediatly UNLESS ITS WARMED UP SOME. This is done but turning on the ignition, headlight if possible, then it'll have its full power.. (the last time I read up on it)...

Unless the price has dropped a whole bunch (it was about 2-3 times more expensive than a standard Yuasa) and until the above issues are addressed, I'll wait...

 

[Erci]

I was referring to the standard AGM batteries/wet batteries most bikes have. Guess I should have clarified it.....

I know the Shorai batteries use a different charger and are preferred NOT TO BE CHARGED. They are considerably smaller in size,much lighter, more powerful and considerably MORE EXPENSIVE. They had some issues with their terminals being manufactured too thin (that was maybe a year+ ago).

In really cold wether, the lithium batteries will barely crank an engine over immediatly UNLESS ITS WARMED UP SOME. This is done but turning on the ignition, headlight if possible, then it'll have its full power.. (the last time I read up on it)...

Unless the price has dropped a whole bunch (it was about 2-3 times more expensive than a standard Yuasa) and until the above issues are addressed, I'll wait...

I got mine for 150. AGM was 100, so it didn't seem outrageous.

Yes, they do say that it's a good idea to turn ignition on for 30 seconds before starting the bike in cold temps. I'm OK with that too.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I got mine for 150. AGM was 100, so it didn't seem outrageous.

Yes, they do say that it's a good idea to turn ignition on for 30 seconds before starting the bike in cold temps. I'm OK with that too.

For a $50 difference, I'd go for the lithium too.

My old FJR Yuasa was well over $130.00 (guess the size was a bit larger than the FZ1 and of course the FZ6). The lithium battery I read up on (over a year ago was the Shorai). If the terminals have been beefed up some, I'll probably spring for one next time the FZ needs one.. (I don't have the cold issues to deal with)..

My original post was noting that the standard wet battery DOES indeed come charged approx 80% and needs a topping charge to get the full life out of the battery. I stand by that statement.... It did NOT refer to a lithium battery as the thread never addressed a lithium battery until now :thumbup:

Just checked about 5 sites for the Shorai replacement battery for the fz6, anywhere from $148 to $180.00

 

[Motogiro]

For a $50 difference, I'd go for the lithium too.

My old FJR Yuasa was well over $130.00 (guess the size was a bit larger than the FZ1 and of course the FZ6). The lithium battery I read up on (over a year ago was the Shorai). If the terminals have been beefed up some, I'll probably spring for one next time the FZ needs one.. (I don't have the cold issues to deal with)..

My original post was noting that the standard wet battery DOES indeed come charged approx 80% and needs a topping charge to get the full life out of the battery. I stand by that statement.... It did NOT refer to a lithium battery as the thread never addressed a lithium battery until now :thumbup:

Scott,
Check out the Ballistic terminals. One of the things they did was make a decent terminal with little better mechanical strength.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Scott,
Check out the Ballistic terminals. One of the things they did was make a decent terminal with little better mechanical strength.

I hadn't seen that battery Cliff. The Shorai I looked at quite sometime ago had some very thin, external tabs for mounting the cables. I didn't read of any failures as it was still pretty new at the time.

It is in the future I agree, but Yamaha, like most other manufacturers, will put in the most cost effective battery as possible for a new bike, especially for an mid sized (somewhat beginner) bike...

I replaced my battery a couple of years ago and its still cranking like new so it'll be awhile before I go battery shopping. The bike is run about everyday so it see's a full charge daily....

 

[Erci]

Looks like the terminal issue has been addressed by Shorai. Unfortunately, mine still has the old style tabs, but honestly I'm not sure what sort of problem it could cause.

It's not like there's a lot of torque on bolts holding clamps in place and once installed it really shouldn't have any force on it :don'tknow: ..

Shorai Motorcycle Battery vs. Ballistic Motorcycle Battery Comparison - webBikeWorld

 

[Motogiro]

Looks like the terminal issue has been addressed by Shorai. Unfortunately, mine still has the old style tabs, but honestly I'm not sure what sort of problem it could cause.

It's not like there's a lot of torque on bolts holding clamps in place and once installed it really shouldn't have any force on it :don'tknow: ..

Shorai Motorcycle Battery vs. Ballistic Motorcycle Battery Comparison - webBikeWorld

I'd bet they're plenty strong. The main concern is probably the person that will put a lot of undue force on the original battery terminal because they don't hold the wire terminal. I've seen so many broken car battery terminals. Wha Happen!?!?!

 

[PhotoAl]

Thanks for all of the comments about batteries, mine is at least 5 years old - may be original unless the previous owner replaced it. Expect it to go at any time but just keeps on going. I ride almost every day and the bike starts quick so not much "wear" I guess. My first choice would be the Ballistic or similar battery less weight and same performance.

Speaking of batteries I got to take one of the fleet cars home the other night. Completely powered by batteries - Tesla Roadster. Wow it was cool, fast, almost as quick as my FZ6. Hated to give it back!

 

[FinalImpact]

Thanks for all of the comments about batteries, mine is at least 5 years old - may be original unless the previous owner replaced it. Expect it to go at any time but just keeps on going. I ride almost every day and the bike starts quick so not much "wear" I guess. My first choice would be the Ballistic or similar battery less weight and same performance.

Speaking of batteries I got to take one of the fleet cars home the other night. Completely powered by batteries - Tesla Roadster. Wow it was cool, fast, almost as quick as my FZ6. Hated to give it back!

And where is the NEW thread with the Pictures??? :thumbup:

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm glad i said what I said, as we've all had our own collective life experience about what works and what doesn't.

As was mentioned; the case in point where a tender is required are the conditions where the load exceeds the charging output and the battery is stored in a state of decay. Heated suits, grips, added lights etc. Beyond that I just don't see it as a value add.

So once every couple of months idle through town with the high beams, and electric everything on and then ride the holy cr@p out of it for 60 min and park it! It keeps em healthy! :spank:

Happy Riding. . .

 

[PhotoAl]

Knew I should not have posted about my old battery!!!!! Was syncing the throttle bodies this morning and after I disconnected everything went to crank it again, turned slow then click..... Yesterday I was off so went by a bike store and when I left it was real slow to crank but caught, didn't think anything about it till today.

Off to Cycle Gear for a new battery.

:-(

 

[FinalImpact]

Knew I should not have posted about my old battery!!!!! Was syncing the throttle bodies this morning and after I disconnected everything went to crank it again, turned slow then click..... Yesterday I was off so went by a bike store and when I left it was real slow to crank but caught, didn't think anything about it till today.

Off to Cycle Gear for a new battery.

:-(

Age and details? Tender/No tender recap please.. .. ..

 

[PhotoAl]

I have owned the bike almost 4 years. It was 4 years old when I bought it with 2,800 miles. Don't know if the battery was OEM - it was a GS or something like that? Never used a battery tender but ride pretty much every day. Have left it several times for 2 to 3 weeks w/o starting. Left the battery at Cycle Gear, it did not have any date indication. New battery really spins it over. Much faster than the old battery so it was probably getting weak for a long time. When it went it was w/o any real warning other than the decrease in cranking speed which occurred over a pretty long period of time. Basically I had one marginal start yesterday after which I rode home on the Interstate which took 20 to 30 minutes. Last night cranked the bike and ran it for 15 seconds or so and this morning ran it for 10 or 15 minutes syncing the throttle bodies then, no start!!! Really wanted to go with one of the new Lithium Ion batteries but didn't want to give up riding time. sigh, well there is always next time.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I have owned the bike almost 4 years. It was 4 years old when I bought it with 2,800 miles. Don't know if the battery was OEM - it was a GS or something like that? Never used a battery tender but ride pretty much every day. Have left it several times for 2 to 3 weeks w/o starting. Left the battery at Cycle Gear, it did not have any date indication. New battery really spins it over. Much faster than the old battery so it was probably getting weak for a long time. When it went it was w/o any real warning other than the decrease in cranking speed which occurred over a pretty long period of time. Basically I had one marginal start yesterday after which I rode home on the Interstate which took 20 to 30 minutes. Last night cranked the bike and ran it for 15 seconds or so and this morning ran it for 10 or 15 minutes syncing the throttle bodies then, no start!!! Really wanted to go with one of the new Lithium Ion batteries but didn't want to give up riding time. sigh, well there is always next time.

Sounds like it was getting weak with age. Sitting there idleing and syncing, (maybe the fan kicking on) while sitting there adjusting, just finished it off. Better it died there than out in the middle of nowhere.

BTW, I got 9 years out of my OEM battery in my 2001 Four Runner (14,000 miles right now). I have to state, being ON a battery tender, got those additional years out of it (The miles are low as I ride the bike 95% of the time).

If driven often, as Randy pointed out, you likely don't need to hook it up, the charging/discharging I uspect "exercises" the battery.

If its going to sit for any lenth of time, as Cliff mentioned, a good tender is nice to have and use (especially for winter storage IMHO).

To tuck away a pig tail for occasional use, jumping too (it'll take a bit longer and a special plug will have to be made to plug in for the jumper battery) is a cheap investment.

It doesn't take much to crank over the FZ6 engine

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Interesting. Not really completely applicable, but I just replaced my OEM FZ1 battery with Shorai (Lithium) and read all of their directions and FAQ.

"Shorai LFX batteries are pre-charged to approximately 90%
of capacity. Therefore it is not required – nor generally
recommended – that the batteries be charged before use in
your vehicle."

Q. Should I use a battery tender?
A.The short answer is "only if you really need to". Most powersports enthusiasts have gotten used to hooking up a tender to their lead-acid batteries, all the time. Shorai LFX have much slower self-discharge than the best lead acid do (1/6 to 1/7, on average), they do not sulfate as capacity drops, and they are the ultimate "deep cycle" battery, which means that they can still crank your vehicle even if the remaining capacity is quite low. Therefore most riders will not need to use a tender at all. Even a charger or tender uses energy you have to pay for, and there is always the possibility that a charger or tender can fail in some way, so if not really needed the best practice is to not use one.

A fully charged LFX can sit for a year or more and still retain adequate starting capacity, without damaging the battery. As such, any vehicle which has no current flowing when the key is OFF should never need a tender. At most it should be charged every 6 to 12 months, depending on the average storage temperature (cool storage is much better for any battery). Many older vehicles and most dirtbike/atv fall into this category.
Newer vehicles may have a significant draw even when the key is OFF, to maintain clocks and computers, etc. In this case we expect that a few hours of riding per month will be all that is needed to avoid tending. If you know that you will go a number of weeks or months without riding, you can either attach a tender, or disconnect the negative cable from the battery. In any case, during storage you may use the voltage chart above and an accurate voltmeter, and consider recharging when the battery is around the 50% capacity remaining mark, or above.

As an FYI from the BT web site:

Freq Asked Questions - Batterytender.com , second post from the bottom re new batteries..

"Background: The motorcycle dealers receive batteries from the manufacturer in a dry state. The plates are dried out, and there is no acid in the cell compartments. (Do not confuse this with a dry-cell battery.) The dealer must fill the individual battery cells with acid and then put them on a shop charger to pre-charge prior to selling them to a customer. As the batteries arrive from the manufacturer, the plates are approximately 80% "formed". The initial pre-charge, post-formation charge, or more correctly, formation-finishing charge, must be conducted at a specific power level and for a specific time period. Each manufacturer has its own recommendations, for example one manufacturer recommends that the charger deliver a constant current equal to 10% to 15% of the battery amp-hour capacity and that the charge current be applied to the battery for a period of 5 to 10 hours.

Answer 1) Certainly if the dealer has properly pre-charged the battery after filling it with acid, then the answer is ABSOLUTELY YES.

Answer 2) If the dealer has not properly pre-charged the
newly filled battery prior to the sale, then the answer is YES, WITH SOME QUALIFICATIONS:

Qualification A) The Battery Tender® Plus should be left on the new battery for a minimum of 24 hours on float, in addition to whatever amount of time it takes for the charger to get to the float stage. It is not clear how to correlate the 80% formed plates with a given state of charge once the cells are filled with acid. To be safe, assume that the batteries require a full 100% charge after the cells are filled.

For example, a 16 Ah battery will take about 13 hours to get to the absorption voltage (constant 14.4 Volts). It may take another 6 to 8 hours to reach the float voltage (constant 13.2 Volts). This may sound awkward; because what happens is that the battery charge current drops while the absorption voltage is held constant. When the battery current drops to 0.1 amp, or if 6 to hours have elapsed at the absorption voltage, the charger automatically switches its output from 14.4 V to 13.2 V. So it may take the better part of 20 hours to reach the float stage. Add another 24 hours to that and you are at 44 hours. Throw in another 4 hours for good measure and you get a nice round, even 48 hours, or 2 days.

Qualification B) Although there are probably several charging methods that will be equally effective, regardless of who manufactures the battery, in the interests of technical consistency, they will not officially sanction any initial charging method other than those published in their technical applications literature. "

 

[Motogiro]

This ^^^^ is great information and probably well relates to why some people have batteries with less life while others see over 5 years healthy use from a battery.

Another reason for longevity may be how a battery is treated. If you look at what a battery's function is, you realize it gets used for a very short period of time to start the bike and as with most vehicles, the charging system provides the replenishing of momentarily used current from the battery and then provides current that is being used by the vehicle. Very little is ever used from the battery in a healthy charging system with the engine running. If it takes a long time to start your bike, you're using more current from the battery and the battery can fail depending on how much cranking of the high current starter there is or the depth of charge and crank amps your battery can provide.

A few weeks ago I stopped for a bike on the side of the road and the rider told me the bike wouldn't stay running and that it definitely was not the battery because the battery was new from 6 months ago. I tried to start the bike and the battery was dead. I jumped the bike with my car (engine off) and the bike would start and then sputter out. I looked in the gas tank and asked if it could be out of gas because I saw very little in the bottom of the tank as I rocked the bike. The answer I got was, "Well yeah I was headed to the gas station" I got gas for the rider and jumped it again and success! Yes the battery was still good but run down. The rider had little or no knowledge on bikes and thought why suspect a 6 month old battery as a problem.

If your battery is brand new and you leave your lights on you will come back to a dead bike in an hour. Bike batteries are lower capacity to keep weight down and the charging systems are generally the same. If you keep this in mind and treat the system with a little TLC and respect it should provide you with many years of great service.