How much can you use brake in a turn???

[kkiser69]

Noob here....1.5k miles. Riding careful, etc, etc.

Other day felt a little bit hot coming into a left-hand, 90 degree turn at an intersection. Natural instinct made me apply a "little bit" of brake (front and back). Everything ended up "ok," but the front wheel did shimmy just a wee bit. enough for me to take note and think...."gee, that time wasn't bad, but what's gonna happen if i do that at even faster speeds."

So -- i've read some on the subject but thought i'd start yet another thread...

How much can you, safely, use brakes in mid-turn?

Kevin

 

[rsw81]

Honest answer is zero. In an ideal world, you should be slowed enough before the turn to be on the throttle as you enter the turn. The idea is that you should not be speeding up or slowing down while turning, thus providing the maximum traction available for the rotation acceleration as opposed to linear acceleration. Now I know what your thinking... why would I need to be on the throttle while turning if I'm not supposed to accelerate? The answer is that turning is a form of acceleration, aka angular acceleration or rotational acceleration. If F=ma for linear acceleration, the angular acceleration is F=mv(squared)/r where r is the radius of the circle that you are turning. If you are turning, you are accelerating. If you are accelerating, you need to apply force to maintain a given linear velocity (v), hence the throttle needing to be open a little.

This is all in perfect physics world (ie: not reality)

Having said that, I do not recommend ever using the front brake while leaned in a turn. If you REALLY need to, a little rear brake will do the trick. Nothing worse than a front tire washing out on your in a turn... been there done that. As you were taught in the MSF course, the ideal in this scenario is to actually stand the bike up as much as possible, and then brake, and return to the lean to complete the turn.

 

[CanadianFZ6]

If you didn't crash, then you didn't use too much....:thumbup:

If possible, do all your braking before to turn....

 

[Hellgate]

Great question - The answer is what is called Trail Braking. The short of it, yes you can. The key is as you lean more your gradually release the brake until apex then you gradually roll on the throttle.

Per Nick Ienatsch and Keith Code:

In applying this technique, motorcycle riders approach turns applying both front and rear brakes to reduce speed. As they enter the turn, they slowly ease off the brakes, gradually decreasing or "trailing" off the brakes as motorcycle lean increases. This is done for several reasons. First, this gives more traction because the front tire is forced into the pavement under the weight of the vehicle. Second, as the brakes are applied and the weight shifts forward the forks are compressed. The compression of the forks changes the motorcycles steering geometry, decreasing stability in a way that makes the motorcycle want to lean and change direction. Thus, trail braking can be used as method used to help the motorcycle change direction.
Additionally, decreasing speed decreases the motorcycles cornering radius, while, conversely, accelerating while turning increases the motorcycles cornering radius. Traditionally, trail braking is done exclusively with the front brake even though trailing the rear brake will effectively slow the motorcycle, also decreasing the turning radius.
Finally, trailing off the brakes while entering blind or tight corners allows the rider to slow if something unexpected blocks the riders path. Because the motorcycle is already on the brakes and the front tire is getting additional traction from already slowing, the rider can slow even more with very little risk. However, applying the brakes after the motorcycle is already leaned over can be exceedingly risky because there is, relatively, very little weight over the front tire increasing the chances of losing traction.
This technique is commonly used when racing, but can enhance control and add more evasive options for street riders making it very worthwhile to learn or at least understand.

There is a high degree of inherent risk with trail braking; excessive use of the front brake can result in a loss of grip as the tire's adhesion is split between braking and cornering forces. Effective trail braking requires a high degree of finesse from the motorcycle operator and has a very steep learning curve for riders wishing to learn and adopt this technique.

It is generally agreed upon that the safest way to approach a corner on a motorcycle is by performing all of the slowing before the entrance of the turn, discouraging the use of any brakes while the motorcycle is leaned over. Opponents of trail braking claim that because of the steep learning curve trail braking is or should be an exclusively race track or racing technique. However, proponents of trail braking believe that knowing and understanding how to slow while entering a corner gives the rider a greater safety margin, particularly in blind, decreasing radius or downhill corners.
Two highly accredited motorcycle riding schools are effectively split on the implementation of trail braking. Keith Code, founder of the California Superbike School teaches that the only way to turn a motorcycle is with countersteering and that riders should accelerate throughout the corner for optimum motorcycle stability. Freddie Spencer, founder of Freddie Spencer's High Performance Riding School teaches that trail braking should be used in most every corner as a means to make the motorcycle change direction, advocating that trail braking gives the rider more control and significantly increases rider safety.

 

[SovietRobot]

Just don't lock the rear in a turn If you manage to not die, it'll scare the **** out of you

 

[Humperdinkel]

Ultimately you wont have to , all braking should be complete before turning in ......If you do get caught out though just a light trail of the rear will tighten you up...... Never ever use the front brake in a turn though , she'll wash out and im guessing it'll hurt :thumbup:

 

[Hellgate]

Ultimately you wont have to , all braking should be complete before turning in ......If you do get caught out though just a light trail of the rear will tighten you up...... Never ever use the front brake in a turn though , she'll wash out and im guessing it'll hurt :thumbup:

I use the front brake all the time, no worries. You just don't hammer it but you can actually apply a lot of pressure. The key is to roll off as you lean more, like a toe/heal in a car. The good thing about trail braking is it helps settle the bike/car as it sets up for the apex. It also reduce rake which helps the bike turn in more. As you exist you roll off the brake as you roll on throttle, again it really helps balance the bike and keeps the nose of the bike from pogo-ing up as you get on the gas.

I had a riding instructor put it this way, "You F the brake, just like you F a woman. If you finesse her she'll respond better and if you hammer her."

 

[Humperdinkel]

I use the front brake all the time, no worries. You just don't hammer it but you can actually apply a lot of pressure. The key is to roll off as you lean more, like a toe/heal in a car. The good thing about trail braking is it helps settle the bike/car as it sets up for the apex. It also reduce rake which helps the bike turn in more. As you exist you roll off the brake as you roll on throttle, again it really helps balance the bike and keeps the nose of the bike from pogo-ing up as you get on the gas.

I had a riding instructor put it this way, \"You F the brake, just like you F a woman. If you finesse her she'll respond better and if you hammer her.\"

Nice piece of info , i'll take it onboard and apply some practice :thumbup:....I'll even try a little bit more finesse later... Might be very rewading advice LOL

 

[Wolfman]

Im with Pete on this one (damn good advice as usual)....i perform all sorts of braking gymnastics when i am "on it"....just requires complete understanding of the limits, the bikes, and your own...be very careful, it takes lots and lots of practise...and a track would be a good place to start practising...i learnt the hard way, when a lot younger...

Locking up the rear brake mid corner saved my butt from sailing through the rear window of a 4WD recently....

:thumbup:

 

[thirty_too]

ya im with hellgate... front brake is fine in a turn just have some finesse to it.. dont grab at it... i do it quite consistently

 

[Fz6Sa]

Noob here....1.5k miles. Riding careful, etc, etc.

Other day felt a little bit hot coming into a left-hand, 90 degree turn at an intersection. Natural instinct made me apply a \"little bit\" of brake (front and back). Everything ended up \"ok,\" but the front wheel did shimmy just a wee bit. enough for me to take note and think....\"gee, that time wasn't bad, but what's gonna happen if i do that at even faster speeds.\"

So -- i've read some on the subject but thought i'd start yet another thread...

How much can you, safely, use brakes in mid-turn?

Kevin

If you work a bit with it (AND BE VERY CAREFUL IN THE BEGINNING) you can save those "Hot Corners" with your throttle instead. As you might have felt, more throttle tend to straighten the bike, and less throttle the opposite.
So if you feel you are going to wide, ease a tad on the throttle, keeping you lean, and you will turn more. If you fell you are going to narrow, apply a tad more throttle, and you go wider ....

And to the brake question: NONE. All breaking must be done before leaning, - but of course you can get lucky and drive away from doing it.

 

[MarinaFazer]

I like to grab a fist full of brake and slam down on the rear brake pedal and see...but that's just me.

just kidding: hellgate's response says it best. just take it easy out there and focus on technique and the speed will follow. Just remember that form and comfort before speed.

 

[DefyInertia]

A lot of bad information in this thread...and some good. Whatever happened to qualifing your responses?

kkiser69, you're in a hard spot because you're so new to everthing: you don't have the skill to be real smooth, the knowledge to understand what's going on, or the confidence to trust your bike and force yourself to do the right thing. I recommend taking it slow and if you get in too hot, the absolute most basic and best thing you can do is LOOK through the turn where you want to go, LEAN that baby over in order to stay on the road, and hope for the best. Jabbing at your brakes or standing the bike up will get your in a lot more trouble 99% of the time.

All that said, I use my FRONT BRAKE in turns all the time. Setting the suspension, having a small amount of drag at turn-in, and staying engaged with the front tire all allow the bike to turn better (geometry will be better), stay in touch with what the front tire is telling you, and allow the rider to apply MORE brake SMOOTHLY if a hazard appears and the situation calls for it.

All that said, I run lots of twisty roads without ever using the brakes at all....it all depends on the situation. On the track, you cannot get the bike turned at speed without being on the brakes.

Keep asking good questions and take everything you hear, including my dribble cause I'm no pro, with an ounce of salf. :thumbup:

 

[chickwebb]

Great question - The answer is what is called Trail Braking. The short of it, yes you can. The key is as you lean more your gradually release the brake until apex then you gradually roll on the throttle.

Per Nick Ienatsch and Keith Code:

<content deleted>

Two highly accredited motorcycle riding schools are effectively split on the implementation of trail braking. Keith Code, founder of the California Superbike School teaches that the only way to turn a motorcycle is with countersteering and that riders should accelerate throughout the corner for optimum motorcycle stability. Freddie Spencer, founder of Freddie Spencer's High Performance Riding School teaches that trail braking should be used in most every corner as a means to make the motorcycle change direction, advocating that trail braking gives the rider more control and significantly increases rider safety.

This is pretty much spot on, and I don't think that the fact that Freddie's school has folded makes him wrong. I trailbrake (so do a lot of others), though mostly on the track; anybody who rides aggressively enough on the street that they want/need to trailbrake on a regular basis is asking for it, IMHO. On the street you're taking your chances with a lot of variables.

You'd be surprised at how much you can slow while leaned over. Of course you will be very surprised when you find the limits of your ability to do so.

Chick

 

[DefyInertia]

Freddie Spencer, founder of Freddie Spencer's High Performance Riding School teaches that trail braking should be used in most every corner as a means to make the motorcycle change direction, advocating that trail braking gives the rider more control and significantly increases rider safety.

This is what I have found to work for me. When these two guys disagree, I'll go with Spencer everytime. The fact that this works for me (it was like getting to second base for the first time when I put to to work) plus the fact that I heard the same things from a lot of top white plated guys at the track just drives it home for me. Still open to other schools of thought...but this is what I'm going with for now.

Here is some conversation between a bunch of racers and some other guys who do upwards of 80 track days a year (peep the avatars and signature lines):

Thoughts on Trail braking? - Chicagoland Sportbikes

Everything you do on the track isn't for the street, but the same basic prinicpals apply and you can definitely learn to transition go fast skills to survival skills.

From another thread....

On the track....


You apply a little brake to load the front ~1 heartbeat.
Then you ramp up to a high 95 % level.
At the end you fade off slowly to zero.


On the street....

Same EXACT thing..... just limit the middle to 70% (or less depending on the situation) with the rest remaining in emergency reserve.


You never EVER *SNAP* the brakes on !
When the front is unloaded ( before the heartbeat...settle )
the front has limited load and traction. SNAPING the brake
on will lock the front wheel.

That;'s when the hand of god spikes your helmet to the asphalt...... WHAM!

"An unweighted tire can't grip"

Here is one other good debate......

Let's Talk About Decreasing Radius Turns - Chicagoland Sportbikes

 

[Gilo-FZ6]

this is how i do it..in my dreams

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6bXqFZCzeU&feature=related"]YouTube - Kawasaki MotoGP Slide King[/ame]

 

[Hellgate]

This is what I have found to work for me. When these two guys disagree, I'll go with Spencer everytime. The fact that this works for me (it was like getting to second base for the first time when I put to to work) plus the fact that I heard the same things from a lot of top white plated guys at the track just drives it home for me. Still open to other schools of thought...but this is what I'm going with for now.

Here is some conversation between a bunch of racers and some other guys who do upwards of 80 track days a year (peep the avatars and signature lines):

Thoughts on Trail braking? - Chicagoland Sportbikes

Everything you do on the track isn't for the street, but the same basic prinicpals apply and you can definitely learn to transition go fast skills to survival skills.

From another thread....



\"An unweighted tire can't grip\"

Here is one other good debate......

Let's Talk About Decreasing Radius Turns - Chicagoland Sportbikes

I agree, Freddy won 500cc and 250 cc in the same year. Keith is a "teacher" Freddy applies it.

 

[xj750_Pete]

I'm not sure about you guys, but I've been lucky and have run into cases where I really needed to use a lot of front brake in a turn and quite frankly, I think its really hard to lock the front. Unless if it is an extreme lean angle, I think the bike will probably do a stoppie before it locks up. The rear on the other hand is too easy to lock up...

 

[fz6joker]

Just a quick note. I noticed you have an 08, if you bought it brand new and the tires don't have any miles on them then be extra careful. There are a bunch of threads explaining how new tires are slicker and need extra caution. I slid past a couple of stops when my bike had only a few miles on it.

 

[ozzieboy]

My advice to you is to take it easy on entering turns until you become more familiar with the limits of traction at varying angles, on varying road surfaces.

Trail braking is a recognized method and does work, but as mentioned has a steep learning curve. Start off slow.

The road surface will make a difference in the amount you can brake in a corner, and even morning dew will make a difference. Tire temps, all this has to be taken into account.

I'd recommend trying to get it right before the turn for now for most riding situations but every now and then under known conditions and very carefully feel it out a little. Knowing how much you can brake in a turn can save your behind:thumbup:, so best if you learn.(Slowly)


Cheers
Mike